Death before Adam's sin ??
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Regardless of how you view it, what "man" existed before Adam "to die"? It's a bit of an odd question.
If you believe Adam was the first literal man, or man-like being, constituted from the earth, then original sin affected the first man.
If you believe Adam was the first "man", or "mankind", as we are "mankind", different from "animals", and we became such when God "breathed into us", then Adam was still "the first man", where "death passed upon all men".
It doesn't matter if you believe in creationism or some neo-evolutionary version of creationism wherein "God created and set it all into motion". We're to understand, where "man" is "us" and, of all these creations by God, "Adam was the first of these", in any event, Adam was the first "man", the first "man subject to sin", the first "man subject to death". There was no "death of man" previously, because they "were not mankind" before Adam.
If you believe Adam was the first literal man, or man-like being, constituted from the earth, then original sin affected the first man.
If you believe Adam was the first "man", or "mankind", as we are "mankind", different from "animals", and we became such when God "breathed into us", then Adam was still "the first man", where "death passed upon all men".
It doesn't matter if you believe in creationism or some neo-evolutionary version of creationism wherein "God created and set it all into motion". We're to understand, where "man" is "us" and, of all these creations by God, "Adam was the first of these", in any event, Adam was the first "man", the first "man subject to sin", the first "man subject to death". There was no "death of man" previously, because they "were not mankind" before Adam.
Job 38.25 - 41
Who has cut a channel for the flood; or a way for the thunderclaps, to make it rain on the earth where no man is, a wilderness and no man in it; to satisfy the waste and desolation, and to cause the source of grass to sprout? Is there a father for the rain? Or who has given birth to the drops of dew? From whose womb comes forth the ice; and the frost of the heavens, who fathered it; the waters hidden like stone, and the face of the deep is captured? Can you bind the bands of the Pleiades, or loosen the cords of Orion? Can you bring out the constellations in their season; or can you guide the Bear with its sons? Do you know the limits of the heavens; can you establish their rulership on the earth? Can you lift your voice to the clouds, so that floods of water may cover you? Can you send lightnings, that they may go and say to you, Here we are? Who has put wisdom in the inward parts; or who has given understanding to the mind? Who can by wisdom number the clouds or who can lay down the jars of the heavens, when the dust is melted into hardness, and the clods cling fast together? Will you hunt the prey for the lion, or fill the appetite of the young lions, when they crouch in dens, and sit in the cover of their hiding place? Who provides food for the raven, when its young ones cry to God and wander about without food?
Here we have Yahweh giving Job a clinic on creation.
Observe that God provides Job with a list of the creation BEFORE mankind!
Lions hunting for prey? Lions are carnivores.This means that they stalked and killed their food, as plainly stated in the text.
Ravens are omnivores – which means that they also ate meat – which means animal death.
So…as you can see, all these things transpired BEFORE the first humans.
Animal death existed BEFORE Adam sinned.
"... whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev 13:8
Kinda makes one ponder who was that Lamb slain from the beginning of the universe, some say Jasher while others say Justus. Personally the name difference is similar to the Noah, Noe spelling found in the Bible or even the Esaias and Isaiah translated spellings.
Kinda makes one ponder who was that Lamb slain from the beginning of the universe, some say Jasher while others say Justus. Personally the name difference is similar to the Noah, Noe spelling found in the Bible or even the Esaias and Isaiah translated spellings.
The Bible really doesn't say that there was ANY death, NOR, emnity, BEFORE Eve, and then Adam's fall. We know for sure there was, AFTER!
Another question to ponder might be: "Just how DIFFERENT this world (age) may have been, had "the man" told the TRUTH to GOD, when inquired over: "WHO told ye, you was naked!?" and, "Hast thou eaten of the tree , whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest NOT eat?!" [Lord God KNEW the answer (of course), yet awaited to "see" how DEEP this "corruption" had "taken root" into "the man". Thinking, this "incident" may still yet be salvageable. "The man", and then "the woman's" answers told Lord God, ALL that HE needed to know.]
Methinks, this is just a "part" of the "oral" record that had lost MUCH, just in the mere telling, as it was "passed on", telling of a previous time (age), Which, gives greater credibility, TO he, who exclaimed that: "This world (age) was created FOR Jesus Christ!" "Though heaven (age) and earth (age) may PASS AWAY, MY WORD, shall NEVER Pass away!"
Though, our CREATOR GODS' good will and LOVE, may be foiled regarding His Children? He is NEVER without, a plan A, or plan B, or, C,D,E, etc.
......Getting back to the original question though.....Later onwards through chapter 3, verse 17, "the man" didn't even HAVE a name until AFTER he "sinned". "The woman", didn't have HER name, til Adam named her.
In verse 19, we read that: "....for dust thou ART, and unto DUST thou SHALT RETURN!"
For those who believe that the Bible (whichever version, translation, etc.) is the ONLY "inerrant" WORD of God? Time to "rethink" a belief.
(excerpts from the Spirit of truth) If ya think negotiating in downtown traffic during rush hour is tough?
.........and people wonder why I drink, smoke cigarettes, and take an hour er longer to reply to a post.
Another question to ponder might be: "Just how DIFFERENT this world (age) may have been, had "the man" told the TRUTH to GOD, when inquired over: "WHO told ye, you was naked!?" and, "Hast thou eaten of the tree , whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest NOT eat?!" [Lord God KNEW the answer (of course), yet awaited to "see" how DEEP this "corruption" had "taken root" into "the man". Thinking, this "incident" may still yet be salvageable. "The man", and then "the woman's" answers told Lord God, ALL that HE needed to know.]
Methinks, this is just a "part" of the "oral" record that had lost MUCH, just in the mere telling, as it was "passed on", telling of a previous time (age), Which, gives greater credibility, TO he, who exclaimed that: "This world (age) was created FOR Jesus Christ!" "Though heaven (age) and earth (age) may PASS AWAY, MY WORD, shall NEVER Pass away!"
Though, our CREATOR GODS' good will and LOVE, may be foiled regarding His Children? He is NEVER without, a plan A, or plan B, or, C,D,E, etc.
......Getting back to the original question though.....Later onwards through chapter 3, verse 17, "the man" didn't even HAVE a name until AFTER he "sinned". "The woman", didn't have HER name, til Adam named her.
In verse 19, we read that: "....for dust thou ART, and unto DUST thou SHALT RETURN!"
For those who believe that the Bible (whichever version, translation, etc.) is the ONLY "inerrant" WORD of God? Time to "rethink" a belief.
(excerpts from the Spirit of truth) If ya think negotiating in downtown traffic during rush hour is tough?
.........and people wonder why I drink, smoke cigarettes, and take an hour er longer to reply to a post.
Adam was put as head over creation.when the head died creation died.
Romans 8:20-21 KJVS
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 8:20-21 KJVS
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
T
Exactly, Cross.
Mark 10:6 NASB
But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.
This verse alone renders old age beliefs nonsense (whether it's the Gap theory, or Progressive Creationism, or Theistic Evolutionism etc.) If old age theories were true, there would be around 13.75 billion years of history before the common ancestors of humans arrived on the scene and then humans would come even later on. We'd be a negligible blip on the timeline. But Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the second person of the Triune God says in the Gospel of Mark that from the BEGINNING of creation, God made them male and female. The context of the passage denotes He's talking about mankind, not animals or animal precursors to humans. There are plenty of other verses that support a young universe, but that's just one of them.
Mark 10:6 NASB
But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.
This verse alone renders old age beliefs nonsense (whether it's the Gap theory, or Progressive Creationism, or Theistic Evolutionism etc.) If old age theories were true, there would be around 13.75 billion years of history before the common ancestors of humans arrived on the scene and then humans would come even later on. We'd be a negligible blip on the timeline. But Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the second person of the Triune God says in the Gospel of Mark that from the BEGINNING of creation, God made them male and female. The context of the passage denotes He's talking about mankind, not animals or animal precursors to humans. There are plenty of other verses that support a young universe, but that's just one of them.
It's fine, Tintin. I understand your interpretation and reasoning is the only possible way. Galileo understood the church's literal interpretation was the only way. Luther understood the catholic church's interpretation was the only way. You keep on, keeping on, being perfect, denying science and technology, when the writing you're reading is technology, when the ink and paper on which you read is from science, when the computer on which you're typing, came from... where? Keep championing a very upside down, backwards and hypocritical method of thinking. It will be ok.
Aside from the monkey people, we don't need to explain these "modern human" bones that have been in the strata for 100,000 years. We don't need to explain geology, or biology, or how there are cave drawings dating to "who knows when". DNA is all nonsense. Dinosaurs probably were on the arc. God just put all the oil and coal there to make us ask questions.
Let's all stick our heads in the sand and pretend we know everything from a literal interpretation of Genesis. A day is a day to God, because you say so. People lived hundreds of years because they ate really well and there's no deeper reason or meaning to this. The deluge was all over the world which is why everyone descended from 1 pack of guys on a boat, even though genetics explicitly tell a different message.
I'm obviously having a flawed belief system because I use the sense God gave me. Tell me a little more about how things really are. Maybe it will click.
Aside from the monkey people, we don't need to explain these "modern human" bones that have been in the strata for 100,000 years. We don't need to explain geology, or biology, or how there are cave drawings dating to "who knows when". DNA is all nonsense. Dinosaurs probably were on the arc. God just put all the oil and coal there to make us ask questions.
Let's all stick our heads in the sand and pretend we know everything from a literal interpretation of Genesis. A day is a day to God, because you say so. People lived hundreds of years because they ate really well and there's no deeper reason or meaning to this. The deluge was all over the world which is why everyone descended from 1 pack of guys on a boat, even though genetics explicitly tell a different message.
I'm obviously having a flawed belief system because I use the sense God gave me. Tell me a little more about how things really are. Maybe it will click.