Deeper understanding of scripture through hearing other's understanding

[crossnote]

Hebrews 7:11-12 So if perfection had in fact been possible through the Levitical priesthood – for on that basis the people received the law – what further need would there have been for another priest to arise, said to be in the order of Melchizedek and not in Aaron’s order?
For when the priesthood changes, a change in the law must come as well.

The Levitical priesthood didn't change, it ended. Christ became our advocate and High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. The law (commandments) didn't end, only the curse of the law. In other words, we aren't condemned by the law, Jesus bore our punishment and its our faith in him that satisfies the law. Its why Jesus asked the adulteress, "Woman, where are thy accusers?" The law demanded her stoning, but Christ suffered in her stead. Note that Jesus didn't nullify her transgression of the law, but acknowledged her sin when he advised her to "Go and sin no more".

I only quoted Scripture, the word change perhaps referred to the change in Priesthood.

 

[RedTent]

GOD said if you love me then keep my commandments.

GOD gave us ten commandments that were written and engraven on stone and he also gave us the two commandments that work by love.

If the words GOD gave us should be adhered to wheather its new testament or old testament and the bible says not to mix grace with law(I mean you receive it as a gift or you receive it because you earned it)
then how does a person be under both?
I think the law is a guide to grace.

How do you keep both?
The bible says we are not to mix them.

ten commandments(called the administration of death)written and engraven on stone.
two commandments(works by love and fulfills all the law)

You are saved ONLY by grace! You cannot use law for salvation, it was never meant for that. If you give yourself power to save yourself by following the law, you are doomed to failure, we cannot do what only God can do.

We still look to law for how to walk in the light of the Lord after we are saved. It is like being a bride of Christ. After the ceremony is over, you still have a better marriage if you are a working partner with your husband, but your work is not the marriage.

 

[psychomom]

What exactly did all the people break? What exactly is the Mosaic Covenant.

Jer. 31:31-32

“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.

 

[RedTent]

Jer. 31:31-32

“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.

We all agree a new covenant was made, it is what Christ is all about. They broke the old covenant so completely that some of them took on new Gods. Do you think that caused the Lord to break His covenant promise? Even the new covenant can be broken by us if we reject Christ, but God keeps His part always.

There are many covenants, such as the salt covenant where salt is shared and to break it each grain would have to be separated, or the sandal covenant of inheritance as when Christ washed the feet of the disciples. God would not break his part in a covenant!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

You are saved ONLY by grace! You cannot use law for salvation, it was never meant for that. If you give yourself power to save yourself by following the law, you are doomed to failure, we cannot do what only God can do.

We still look to law for how to walk in the light of the Lord after we are saved. It is like being a bride of Christ. After the ceremony is over, you still have a better marriage if you are a working partner with your husband, but your work is not the marriage.

So I think you are saying its ok to use the words that the LORD said in the old testament that don't apply to salvation to help us walk in the light.
If that is what you are saying I understand that the LORDS words are always true,but the words in the new testament are built on better promises and easier to understand.

They say that the old testament is the new testament concealed and the new testament is the old testament revealed.

But when it comes to the ten commandments.Do you try to keep those?

Isn't it easier to keep the two commandments(which comes naturally) through the finished work of JESUS.(graced through faith.)

 

[RedTent]

So I think you are saying its ok to use the words that the LORD said in the old testament that don't apply to salvation to help us walk in the light.
If that is what you are saying I understand that the LORDS words are always true,but the words in the new testament are built on better promises and easier to understand.

They say that the old testament is the new testament concealed and the new testament is the old testament revealed.

But when it comes to the ten commandments.Do you try to keep those?

Isn't it easier to keep the two commandments(which comes naturally) through the finished work of JESUS.(graced through faith.)

Many words all through scripture are for AFTER salvation, not to gain salvation.

If you wouldn't close off the OT, you could gain a better understanding of the new. Over half of the NT is referring to the OT to explain itself. When the NT was given to us, the OT was ALL of scripture.

If you keep the two commandments so it is simple for you, you will keep the ten. It is true that anything of the law not kept would make us lose our salvation without Christ, but surely you are not asking Christ to save you, and not want anything from you? That would be so selfish.

 

[Flamingspirit]

Many words all through scripture are for AFTER salvation, not to gain salvation.

If you wouldn't close off the OT, you could gain a better understanding of the new. Over half of the NT is referring to the OT to explain itself. When the NT was given to us, the OT was ALL of scripture.

If you keep the two commandments so it is simple for you, you will keep the ten. It is true that anything of the law not kept would make us lose our salvation without Christ, but surely you are not asking Christ to save you, and not want anything from you? That would be so selfish.

If you keep the 2 then all of the law is fulfilled.

 

[psychomom]

We all agree a new covenant was made, it is what Christ is all about. They broke the old covenant so completely that some of them took on new Gods. Do you think that caused the Lord to break His covenant promise? Even the new covenant can be broken by us if we reject Christ, but God keeps His part always.

There are many covenants, such as the salt covenant where salt is shared and to break it each grain would have to be separated, or the sandal covenant of inheritance as when Christ washed the feet of the disciples. God would not break his part in a covenant!

well, God certainly, according to His own Word, changed the Covenant.
He made a NEW Covenant, just as He promised He would in the Jeremiah 31 verses i quoted.
the book of Hebrews makes that abundantly clear.

it's the Covenant He began telling us about in Genesis 3.
those Old Testament saints who looked forward in faith to it
are part of Christ's Church.

God never broke His part of the Mosaic Covenant, of course!
the sandal covenant was not a part of God's Law, that i know of,
but rather a custom, as we see in Ruth 4.

as for salt, i think it's another shadow of Christ.
salt was used to preserve, right?
to keep meat from "corrupting"?
under the Law, offerings were to be sprinkled with salt
and it seems to me that's symbolic in the sense we need
the Lord Jesus' sacrifice for us to keep us from corruption.

WE broke the Covenant God made through Moses, Ma'am.
WE desperately needed something better!
the Mosaic Covenant was finally and fully done away
when God destroyed the temple in 70 AD.
because God had given us something infinitely better in the Covenant
He made with His Son's own blood and body.

we should rejoice that we're no longer under a covenant we could never keep,
but instead under the New Covenant Jesus fully keeps for us.

 

[RedTent]

well, God certainly, according to His own Word, changed the Covenant. He made a NEW Covenant, just as He promised He would in the Jeremiah 31 verses i quoted. the book of Hebrews makes that abundantly clear.

it's the Covenant He began telling us about in Genesis 3. those Old Testament saints who looked forward in faith to it
are part of Christ's Church.

God never broke His part of the Mosaic Covenant, of course! the sandal covenant was not a part of God's Law, that i know of, but rather a custom, as we see in Ruth 4.

as for salt, i think it's another shadow of Christ. salt was used to preserve, right? to keep meat from "corrupting"?
under the Law, offerings were to be sprinkled with salt and it seems to me that's symbolic in the sense we need
the Lord Jesus' sacrifice for us to keep us from corruption.

WE broke the Covenant God made through Moses, Ma'am. WE desperately needed something better! the Mosaic Covenant was finally and fully done away when God destroyed the temple in 70 AD. because God had given us something infinitely better in the Covenant He made with His Son's own blood and body.

we should rejoice that we're no longer under a covenant we could never keep, but instead under the New Covenant Jesus fully keeps for us.

Thanks for answering with your thoughts.

Scripture, all through talks of the new and better covenant. That is not debatable, even. But the misunderstanding, I see of God, is what God did with the old one. It boils down to does God reward those who obey Him or not? People say no, and I do not see how they can base that on scripture or even on life they see around them. The scriptures they quote are not ones saying God does not reward us for obedience. Look at the fruits of the spirit. Those fruits do not come from disobedience. Look at happy contented life around you. That also comes from obedience. At this point people usually point to salvation. That is completely another subject, salvation relates to faith not obedience. The Mosaic Covenant never mentions salvation, that was already taken care of.

I find no scripture that says God cancelled a covenant, or the word covenant means something that can be cancelled. The temple was not the covenant at all, when we study the temple we never come across the word covenant. It is the same today in our world. If we sign a mortgage or covenant we cannot say oh, I take that back, here is a new one. The old one has to be paid off. That is not true of a testament, it is a different legal document. A new will takes over the old one.

God gave something so much better than the shadow of his blood, the symbol, used before. That, again has nothing at all to do with the Mosaic Covenant.

Also, we know all the attributes of salt, and that God used it as a symbol for those attributes. But scripture is factual and when scripture explains the salt covenant, it gives what that covenant was about. It was about something that once put together could not be torn apart. We are not to say that covenant means more.

 

[psychomom]

as i see it, God in Christ fulfilled every obligation of the Mosaic Covenant.
the Lord Jesus perfectly obeyed the Law for us.

you say "salvation relates to faith, not obedience."
but what i wonder if you see clearly is that it's both.
and the blessings i enjoy have nothing whatsoever to so with my obedience.
God knew that even after He saved me i would not perfectly obey Him.
the blessings we enjoy have everything to do with Christ's obedience for us.
our faith is placed completely in that perfect work of the Lord Jesus.
not just to get us into heaven.
but when our faith is located in anything smaller than Jesus, it's misplaced.
it's not about what we do for Him. it's what He did for us.
the Bible is not a record of good people earning God's blessings.
it's a record of bad people receiving God's blessings. (grace!)

we are pleased to obey the Lord (and we should!), yet we realize the New Covenant made with
the blood and body of Christ is totally ONE sided.
the Law tells us God demands perfect righteousness.
the Gospel tells us God delivers perfect righteousness.

it's not our imperfect obedience for Him,
but His perfect obedience for us! ♥

hope i'm making some sort of sense...it's getting late.
i do love you, Ma'am.

 

[RedTent]

as i see it, God in Christ fulfilled every obligation of the Mosaic Covenant.
the Lord Jesus perfectly obeyed the Law for us.

you say "salvation relates to faith, not obedience."
but what i wonder if you see clearly is that it's both.
and the blessings i enjoy have nothing whatsoever to so with my obedience.
God knew that even after He saved me i would not perfectly obey Him.
the blessings we enjoy have everything to do with Christ's obedience for us.
our faith is placed completely in that perfect work of the Lord Jesus.
not just to get us into heaven.
but when our faith is located in anything smaller than Jesus, it's misplaced.
it's not about what we do for Him. it's what He did for us.
the Bible is not a record of good people earning God's blessings.
it's a record of bad people receiving God's blessings. (grace!)

we are pleased to obey the Lord (and we should!), yet we realize the New Covenant made with
the blood and body of Christ is totally ONE sided.
the Law tells us God demands perfect righteousness.
the Gospel tells us God delivers perfect righteousness.

it's not our imperfect obedience for Him,
but His perfect obedience for us! ♥

hope i'm making some sort of sense...it's getting late.
i do love you, Ma'am.

Me, too. It is only people who love each other who can talk frankly!

We agree always up to the conclusion to be made from the truth. Christ fulfilled every law for us, and paid for our sins, we agree. Through that we have salvation. Where we part is in saying that means the law has been done away with, is no good for anything as I am reading your "fulfilled".

I also don't believe that the giving of the law relates to salvation. That is free to us, given upon repentance, through grace and faith, not law. We are told over and over that it is through faith we are saved, not through the law.

If blessing have nothing to do with how we obey, and blessings ONLY consists of salvation, then scripture is telling it wrong. Even outside of scripture we can see that. Hate produces unhappiness, murder produces terrible punishment, and true love is always happy.

The law tells us we would need complete obedience if it resulted in salvation and we can't do that, we need Christ. But nowhere is scripture are we told we will be punished for obedience.

 

[Ukorin]

Redtent,
The Mosaic Covenant is a specific set of promises given to a specific people. They are physical blessings mostly when taken at face value.
The physical blessings are no longer applicable, because that group did not keep their end of the Covenant... HOWEVER, for each of those physical blessings, there is a spiritual blessing behind it.

God no longer offers wealth to the righteous, or safety from war to the obedient,
But He does offer eternal reward to the righteous, and inner peace(which surpasses understanding) to the obedient.

We do not hold claim to any land in Canaan,
But we do hold claim to a place in Heaven.

The Mosaic Covenant is a shadow of the New Covenant.
The Light behind the Old Covenant, glimmering around the edges of each word, is CHRIST.

 

[RedTent]

Redtent,
The Mosaic Covenant is a specific set of promises given to a specific people. They are physical blessings mostly when taken at face value.
The physical blessings are no longer applicable, because that group did not keep their end of the Covenant... HOWEVER, for each of those physical blessings, there is a spiritual blessing behind it.

God no longer offers wealth to the righteous, or safety from war to the obedient,
But He does offer eternal reward to the righteous, and inner peace(which surpasses understanding) to the obedient.

We do not hold claim to any land in Canaan,
But we do hold claim to a place in Heaven.

The Mosaic Covenant is a shadow of the New Covenant.
The Light behind the Old Covenant, glimmering around the edges of each word, is CHRIST.

If you truly feel that God gave scripture only for a specific people, not to be taken except at face value, then I suggest you get rid of scripture. You would have to pick and choose what is of God and what isn't, something too difficult for humans. A lot of the New Testament, that I'll bet you think is the only part for you, relates to things told to these specific people you tell of, so you are left with very little of scripture to rely on. 78% of the bible is OT, and a good portion of the NT relates directly to the OT, including speaking of Moses so that is also to only specific people, so you are left with a tiny book to claim for yourself.

If you think shadows have absolutely nothing to do with what they are a shadow of, try getting rid of shadows of things.

To try to destroy scripture is certainly not a Godly thing to do.

 

[Ukorin]

If you truly feel that God gave scripture only for a specific people, not to be taken except at face value, then I suggest you get rid of scripture. You would have to pick and choose what is of God and what isn't, something too difficult for humans. A lot of the New Testament, that I'll bet you think is the only part for you, relates to things told to these specific people you tell of, so you are left with very little of scripture to rely on. 78% of the bible is OT, and a good portion of the NT relates directly to the OT, including speaking of Moses so that is also to only specific people, so you are left with a tiny book to claim for yourself.

If you think shadows have absolutely nothing to do with what they are a shadow of, try getting rid of shadows of things.

To try to destroy scripture is certainly not a Godly thing to do.

I think you are confusing what I said.
Each law has a spiritual meaning; an object lesson.
Nothing is thrown out. You just can't expect to get rich just because you obey: that was the deal for the Israelites before they broke the Covenant.

I'm not sure exactly sure what it is that you believe. Do you hold yourself under the weight of the Old Covenant? Or are you free in Christ?

What did I say that gives you this idea that I throw out any of Scripture?
I spend over 50% of my Bible reading in the OT. Psalms/Proverbs not included in that figure.

 

[RedTent]

I think you are confusing what I said.
Each law has a spiritual meaning; an object lesson.
Nothing is thrown out. You just can't expect to get rich just because you obey: that was the deal for the Israelites before they broke the Covenant.

I'm not sure exactly sure what it is that you believe. Do you hold yourself under the weight of the Old Covenant? Or are you free in Christ?

What did I say that gives you this idea that I throw out any of Scripture?
I spend over 50% of my Bible reading in the OT. Psalms/Proverbs not included in that figure.

You said "The Mosaic Covenant is a specific set of promises given to a specific people. They are physical blessings mostly when taken at face value.' I assumed you didn't think you were that specific people.

Do you not believe what the bible says about being blessed by obedience? Do you really think that receiving money is the way God blesses you? What about the fruits of the spirit? They don't consist of money.

Do you actually have the idea that you can achieve salvation through law? That is a sure path to death. Salvation comes through Christ.

Reading the Old Testament while you don't believe it does you no good.

 

[Ukorin]

Reading, understanding, and loving the Law is different than needing all of your clothes to be 100% cotton(because mixed fibers is against the Law).

Submitting to, and gaining understanding through the spirit behind the Law is how we come to love the Law.
We do not submit to the letter, but the Spirit, because our salvation comes through the Spirit, not the letter.

 

[Ukorin]

You said "The Mosaic Covenant is a specific set of promises given to a specific people. They are physical blessings mostly when taken at face value.' I assumed you didn't think you were that specific people.

Do you not believe what the bible says about being blessed by obedience? Do you really think that receiving money is the way God blesses you? What about the fruits of the spirit? They don't consist of money.

Do you actually have the idea that you can achieve salvation through law? That is a sure path to death. Salvation comes through Christ.

Reading the Old Testament while you don't believe it does you no good.

Do you see how you turned money into the fruit of the Spirit?
That is exactly what I am talking about.

When the Scripture says, "Pass over the Jordan, and enter the land I have given you." Do you pack up and go to Israel and cross the Jordan and set up a tent, and slaughter all the Palistinians who get in your way? No, because that literal interpretation is not for you. It is for a specific group of people.

That doesn't mean that that Scripture is not for you at all.
There is a spiritual meaning for the Believer.
The physical meaning was for the ancient Israelites only. And the current Israelites don't have claim to the literal either, because their ancestors broke the Covenant.

 

[RedTent]

Do you see how you turned money into the fruit of the Spirit?
That is exactly what I am talking about.

When the Scripture says, "Pass over the Jordan, and enter the land I have given you." Do you pack up and go to Israel and cross the Jordan and set up a tent, and slaughter all the Palistinians who get in your way? No, because that literal interpretation is not for you. It is for a specific group of people.

That doesn't mean that that Scripture is not for you at all.
There is a spiritual meaning for the Believer.
The physical meaning was for the ancient Israelites only. And the current Israelites don't have claim to the literal either, because their ancestors broke the Covenant.

You are ignoring the spirit of the law and blaming it onto me! I said promises of blessings from the law is about the spirit of the law, not about the money as blessings as you told it. When it says not to mix fibers, you say it is all about the letter of the law, not about what God it talking about, therefore you won't listen. When it says to pass over Jordon, you say you would have to pack up and cross that specific river, so you miss the entire point. So unless you lived in those ancient times and were those people, you don't have a clue about what scripture tells you. That is living in the flesh so completely that all the spirit of the Lord is passing you by.

 

[Ukorin]

You are ignoring the spirit of the law and blaming it onto me! I said promises of blessings from the law is about the spirit of the law, not about the money as blessings as you told it. When it says not to mix fibers, you say it is all about the letter of the law, not about what God it talking about, therefore you won't listen. When it says to pass over Jordon, you say you would have to pack up and cross that specific river, so you miss the entire point. So unless you lived in those ancient times and were those people, you don't have a clue about what scripture tells you. That is living in the flesh so completely that all the spirit of the Lord is passing you by.

Why this phrase "you don't have a clue"? You are not reading my posts fully. Of course we can know what the Scriptures mean and meant.
You said that I said "it is all about the letter of the law", which you must have misunderstood, because I was saying the opposite.
Are you saying that the words were never literal?
I am not 'blaming you' for anything at all. You seem to be offended, yet I have yet to understand where you're taking offense.

To the ancient Jew, the OT Scriptures had 2 meanings, and two applications. One physical, and one spiritual. (I do mean base applications, because there are hundreds of personal applications).

To the Church, the OT Scriptures still have 2 meanings, but only one base application. I am not prohibited from applying the former, but it is not needed.


You have a preconceived notion of what others believe,
and reject them even when they are on your side.

 

[RedTent]

Why this phrase "you don't have a clue"? You are not reading my posts fully. Of course we can know what the Scriptures mean and meant.
You said that I said "it is all about the letter of the law", which you must have misunderstood, because I was saying the opposite.
Are you saying that the words were never literal?
I am not 'blaming you' for anything at all. You seem to be offended, yet I have yet to understand where you're taking offense.

To the ancient Jew, the OT Scriptures had 2 meanings, and two applications. One physical, and one spiritual. (I do mean base applications, because there are hundreds of personal applications).

To the Church, the OT Scriptures still have 2 meanings, but only one base application. I am not prohibited from applying the former, but it is not needed.

You have a preconceived notion of what others believe,
and reject them even when they are on your side.

We are having a discussion about the meaning of scripture, and I thank you so much for hanging in there and discussing it with me! I am sorry if I sound offended. I only mean to stand up for scripture as it seems clear to me, and you are doing the same. I am grateful to you.

You truly did speak of the letter of the law instead of the spiritual meaning. Perhaps you didn't mean to.

I am still reacting to your position that some scripture is speaking to Israel only, in response to a separate situation, not as an illustration for us. After Christ changed that Jews were to be sanctified and separated from gentiles, and Paul was told to take Christ to us, we were adopted in. Now we are part of Israel.