-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
what's 'traditional' dispensationalism?
...
Historic premillennialism is the polemical designation (adopted by its adherents) which could be more objectively called post-tribulational premillennialism. The use of the term "historic" implies that this point of view is the historical view of premillennialists, while pre-tribulationism is a new theory. Post-tribulational premillennialism is the Christian eschatological view which teaches that the second coming of Jesus Christ will occur prior to a thousand-year reign of the saints, but subsequent to the great apostasy and the tribulation.
Historic premillennialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click
....
and this, more proof the whole system is quicksand (if you start out with Israel's Promises unfulfilled, good luck...there's no way out):
How Pretribulationism Has Almost Destroyed the Doctrine of Imminency
–Sam A. Smith
[Having advocated pretribulationism for over thirty-five years, Sam A. Smith believes that the case for pretribulationism is seriously flawed and has actually undermined the case for the imminency of the rapture, and may even jeopardize the future of dispensationalism itself. This is the third of four papers on the problems of pretribulationism. The first is titled: Can Pretribulationism be Proven by Imminency? the second is titled: Does Pretribulationism’s Wrath Argument Prove Pretribulationism? and the fourth is titled: Some Final Thoughts on Rapture Theories. These titles are available from Biblical Reader Communications (BiblicalReader.com).]
On the one hand there is pretribulationism, the belief that the rapture of the church must occur before the tribulation period begins, and on the other hand there is every other view...
How Pretribulationism Has Almost Destoyed the Doctrine of Imminency --Sam A. Smith < click
...
Historic premillennialism is the polemical designation (adopted by its adherents) which could be more objectively called post-tribulational premillennialism. The use of the term "historic" implies that this point of view is the historical view of premillennialists, while pre-tribulationism is a new theory. Post-tribulational premillennialism is the Christian eschatological view which teaches that the second coming of Jesus Christ will occur prior to a thousand-year reign of the saints, but subsequent to the great apostasy and the tribulation.
Historic premillennialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click
....
and this, more proof the whole system is quicksand (if you start out with Israel's Promises unfulfilled, good luck...there's no way out):
How Pretribulationism Has Almost Destroyed the Doctrine of Imminency
–Sam A. Smith
[Having advocated pretribulationism for over thirty-five years, Sam A. Smith believes that the case for pretribulationism is seriously flawed and has actually undermined the case for the imminency of the rapture, and may even jeopardize the future of dispensationalism itself. This is the third of four papers on the problems of pretribulationism. The first is titled: Can Pretribulationism be Proven by Imminency? the second is titled: Does Pretribulationism’s Wrath Argument Prove Pretribulationism? and the fourth is titled: Some Final Thoughts on Rapture Theories. These titles are available from Biblical Reader Communications (BiblicalReader.com).]
On the one hand there is pretribulationism, the belief that the rapture of the church must occur before the tribulation period begins, and on the other hand there is every other view...
How Pretribulationism Has Almost Destoyed the Doctrine of Imminency --Sam A. Smith < click
B
The hound dogs are hear waiting to jump on the occasion.
Linda70, I wonder just how many of these folks that call themselves Christians actually have ministered the gospel to the Jews, on purpose, (like yourself) in obedience to the commission we have been given by the Lord to preach the gospel of Christ to every creature. These self professed Christians kick against the Jews and against those who would show kindness or any form of favor toward them in their unbelief. Are we not all drawn unto the Lord God with lovingkindness and it is not the goodness of God that leads men to repentance? I would venture to say without a doubt that Pastor John Hagee has exhibited the lovingkindness and goodness of God to more Jews than all of his detractors put together. If a Jew visits his church or hears him preach the gospel on one of his many media outlets, they will hear about the cross and Jesus Christ and him crucified and that there is salvation in no other. Do you think that John Hagee does not know how the scriptures have testified of the Jews being converted at Pentecost and in the early church and that the call has gone out to both Jew and Gentile? If I was in this man's ministry and someone called me to ask me those same questions, I would not answer him either because of the motive of his heart.
I have a question...Did the Torah reveal Christ or not? Was the one whom Moses spoke with on the mount or in the holy of holies mouth to mouth not also the Creator of all things as our Lord Jesus Christ is the creator of heaven and earth and through him all things consist and by him? Did the Israelites under Moses drink from the same spiritual rock, Christ, or not? Did not even our Lord tell those religious Jews that the law and Moses spoke of him in Luke 24:44 and John 5:46? If Pastor Hagee wants to have this kind of ministry toward Israel and the Jews and believes God has called him to do so, why do we have to touch it and call it something else by condemning it?
Linda70, I wonder just how many of these folks that call themselves Christians actually have ministered the gospel to the Jews, on purpose, (like yourself) in obedience to the commission we have been given by the Lord to preach the gospel of Christ to every creature. These self professed Christians kick against the Jews and against those who would show kindness or any form of favor toward them in their unbelief. Are we not all drawn unto the Lord God with lovingkindness and it is not the goodness of God that leads men to repentance? I would venture to say without a doubt that Pastor John Hagee has exhibited the lovingkindness and goodness of God to more Jews than all of his detractors put together. If a Jew visits his church or hears him preach the gospel on one of his many media outlets, they will hear about the cross and Jesus Christ and him crucified and that there is salvation in no other. Do you think that John Hagee does not know how the scriptures have testified of the Jews being converted at Pentecost and in the early church and that the call has gone out to both Jew and Gentile? If I was in this man's ministry and someone called me to ask me those same questions, I would not answer him either because of the motive of his heart.
I have a question...Did the Torah reveal Christ or not? Was the one whom Moses spoke with on the mount or in the holy of holies mouth to mouth not also the Creator of all things as our Lord Jesus Christ is the creator of heaven and earth and through him all things consist and by him? Did the Israelites under Moses drink from the same spiritual rock, Christ, or not? Did not even our Lord tell those religious Jews that the law and Moses spoke of him in Luke 24:44 and John 5:46? If Pastor Hagee wants to have this kind of ministry toward Israel and the Jews and believes God has called him to do so, why do we have to touch it and call it something else by condemning it?
B
This man is a joke for it does no such thing, and for some to even read what he has written would be sin against their own faith. You can put his papers into that same dung heap that all the others belong, for I want nothing to spot my feast of charity, especially what comes from the mouth of some on this site. Linda70 you are not included in that despicable group.
This verse refers to prophecy. It does not state "All scripture".
This is a common quote for this heresy. First, Paul is not God. What you have here is Paul saying that "All scripture...." Paul is a man. He can say what ever he wants to say. Second, when Paul wrote this letter, it was not scripture, so he could not be referring to himself in this tautology. The scripture that was available when Paul wrote this would have included the Old Testament, the deuterocanonical, and parts of the psuedepigrapha. These later two are not considered scripture by Protestants as Paul would have considered them.
I would encourage you to know why what you believe is true and offer that as an argument of persuasion.
What do you mean by "led and inspired"? Do you mean that everything every writer wrote is from the mouth of God?
(bringing it back to the op) All will be judged by what they say and do. If the Muslim, Catholic, Atheist, Jehovah Witness, Jew, etc... do what is pleasing to God, then God will judged them to salvation or damnation by that. There is no rule that only a single flavor of evangelical who knows the English word "Jesus" gets into heaven.
What do you mean by "led and inspired"? Do you mean that everything every writer wrote is from the mouth of God?
(bringing it back to the op) All will be judged by what they say and do. If the Muslim, Catholic, Atheist, Jehovah Witness, Jew, etc... do what is pleasing to God, then God will judged them to salvation or damnation by that. There is no rule that only a single flavor of evangelical who knows the English word "Jesus" gets into heaven.
L
BradC,
I have known about this dual covenant theology of John Hagee since 2007. It is dangerous and unbiblical and goes against the Great Commission to preach the Gospel to "every creature" (Mark 16:15). Paul said in Romans 1:16 that the gospel is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Humanitarian help and support for Israel (which is the mission of CUFI)...but sharing the Gospel with the Jews is a command and this is what is missing in John Hagee's and CUFI's "love of Israel". My entire family is lost (and is Jewish). Do you really believe a message such as John Hagee's (that Jews can be saved without Jesus) would be the message to share with lost Jews? Would that not send them straight to Hell?
Nobody is saved by keeping the Mosaic Covenant (Torah). Yes, the Torah REVEALS Christ...however it does not, neither can it save anyone. (Galatians 2:16; 3:24-25). It was not given for salvation and it was temporary. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law. People in Old Testament times did not understand completely about how Jesus Christ would come to earth and die for their sins, but when they believed in the things God told them, they were saved by their faith in God's Word (Hebrews 11).
John Hagee needs to preach the Gospel to BOTH Jews and Gentiles, not one Gospel to Gentiles and another (dual covenant theology) gospel to the Jews. Any message that goes against the biblical message of the Great Commission and keeps Jesus away from a group of people, needs to be condemned. Also, check out his book "In Defense of Israel".
Jan Markell of Olive Tree Ministries has done a series on dual covenant theology on youtube. It's a 6 part series, but part one doesn't seem to load, so here is the link for part 2:
[video=youtube;dyr4OQgbsW0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyr4OQgbsW0[/video]
I have known about this dual covenant theology of John Hagee since 2007. It is dangerous and unbiblical and goes against the Great Commission to preach the Gospel to "every creature" (Mark 16:15). Paul said in Romans 1:16 that the gospel is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Humanitarian help and support for Israel (which is the mission of CUFI)...but sharing the Gospel with the Jews is a command and this is what is missing in John Hagee's and CUFI's "love of Israel". My entire family is lost (and is Jewish). Do you really believe a message such as John Hagee's (that Jews can be saved without Jesus) would be the message to share with lost Jews? Would that not send them straight to Hell?
Nobody is saved by keeping the Mosaic Covenant (Torah). Yes, the Torah REVEALS Christ...however it does not, neither can it save anyone. (Galatians 2:16; 3:24-25). It was not given for salvation and it was temporary. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law. People in Old Testament times did not understand completely about how Jesus Christ would come to earth and die for their sins, but when they believed in the things God told them, they were saved by their faith in God's Word (Hebrews 11).
John Hagee needs to preach the Gospel to BOTH Jews and Gentiles, not one Gospel to Gentiles and another (dual covenant theology) gospel to the Jews. Any message that goes against the biblical message of the Great Commission and keeps Jesus away from a group of people, needs to be condemned. Also, check out his book "In Defense of Israel".
Jan Markell of Olive Tree Ministries has done a series on dual covenant theology on youtube. It's a 6 part series, but part one doesn't seem to load, so here is the link for part 2:
[video=youtube;dyr4OQgbsW0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyr4OQgbsW0[/video]
B
Is there any other descriptive words that you would like to use to label and corrupt others? You shame no one nor minimize one single thing with these words and you can't refute what I said about Pastor Hagee. Who has called you to be critical of another who has been raised up of God. God does not raise up perfect people, just look at 1Cor 1:25-29 nor does he condone the wise. You are the one that is always corrupting others and you have your followers that get off on it just like you. Some have been banned and others still lurk about, but you all have this fancy of corrupting others. Sooner or later God will assess your life and mine and we will see who is approved and who is not according to his mercy and grace.
B
Why do so many presume that Pastor Hagee has never presented the gospel of Jesus Christ and him crucified to the Jews, in his personal life as a Christian or in his ministry as a preacher? Do you think that he only preaches the gospel to Gentiles in his church and though various media outlets? If your folks tuned into his San Antonio church service and listened to a gospel message he preached, when the invitation is given for salvation in Christ, he does not exclude the Jews from that invitation, in fact he hopes they are listening and will be saved through Jesus Christ and the conviction of the Spirit. No one is spared of the gospel in his ministry and he depends on the testimony of Jesus Christ to be the witness of the ministry God has given him. What more do others want, a signed confession of some guilt on his part and a committment to preach the gospel of Christ to every Jew?
Instead of so many being against him for his approach with Israel and the Jews, let's take that same energy and preach the gospel of Christ to the Jews like you do Linda70. Use the opportunity that God has given through this preacher and declare the works of God that has been done in the name of Jesus Christ in and through the lives of so many. The works of God declare his glory and the Jews of Israel need to see that glory in the Jew and in the Gentile who have believed, even though they may not credit it to Christ. If we are rejected in those works, we remain kind as we dust our feet and remain available to take the next step. Pastor Hagee has a zeal for the nation of Israel, it's people and the land and there is no doubt about it. If I were a Jew in the land of Israel wanting to preserve our heritage, I would appreciate his efforts toward my people. There may be Jews that disagree and even some Jewish Christians, but he would not hesitate to lay his life down to see the salvation of the Jews. He also does not neglect the Gentiles nor their affairs in the church and body of Christ. Do you really want to be associated with those who condemn him for things he has said that they deem as heretical because it involves a zeal for your people?
Instead of so many being against him for his approach with Israel and the Jews, let's take that same energy and preach the gospel of Christ to the Jews like you do Linda70. Use the opportunity that God has given through this preacher and declare the works of God that has been done in the name of Jesus Christ in and through the lives of so many. The works of God declare his glory and the Jews of Israel need to see that glory in the Jew and in the Gentile who have believed, even though they may not credit it to Christ. If we are rejected in those works, we remain kind as we dust our feet and remain available to take the next step. Pastor Hagee has a zeal for the nation of Israel, it's people and the land and there is no doubt about it. If I were a Jew in the land of Israel wanting to preserve our heritage, I would appreciate his efforts toward my people. There may be Jews that disagree and even some Jewish Christians, but he would not hesitate to lay his life down to see the salvation of the Jews. He also does not neglect the Gentiles nor their affairs in the church and body of Christ. Do you really want to be associated with those who condemn him for things he has said that they deem as heretical because it involves a zeal for your people?
J
Actually John Hagee said out of his own mouth that he doesn't target Jews for conversion but come to think about it, your paragraph actually sounds like his "response" to the situation. But you have to ask yourself the question, if he doesn't target the Jews for conversion but his sermons on the airwaves are used as a offhand tool, then with all his time spent in the State of Israel, what is he telling these people (if they are not the target)? Shoot, the "In Defense of Israel" promo was enough to blow up the "apostate radar."
L
I want to be associated with those whose love for the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the nation of Israel, includes evangelizing the Jewish people....those who believe that the Gospel is "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." There is no salvation without Jesus Christ for Jew and Gentile alike. Humanitarian support for the nation of Israel falls short when the Gospel is not shared with those who desparately need to hear it...those lost souls who are on their way to a Christless eternity. The reason for this is because this dual covenant theology that is taught by John Hagee, CUFI and other "ministries" teach that these lost Jewish souls don't need Jesus to be saved....because they have the Torah and the Abrahamic covenant. The lost Jews in Israel and elsewhere love John Hagee, not only for his "humanitarian" support of Israel, but because he doesn't "push Jesus on them. They believe they will go to heaven w/o having to trust Christ for salvation. This is sad.
So what if John Hagee shared the Gospel with the Jews in the past. Does he continue to do this? If not, why not?
So what if John Hagee shared the Gospel with the Jews in the past. Does he continue to do this? If not, why not?
B
There was an international ministry that started as a local church and bought some property in an area that was filled with religious unitarians and wealthy people. The condition was set forth that in order to purchase the property they were not to do any evangelism in the town from door to door or otherwise for the duration with the exception of the property. They bought the property and honored the condition and never evangelized in the town. The representatives of the town are responsible for rejecting the message of the gospel and their blood is on their own hands. However, God drew a number of people from that town over the years who heard the gospel and were saved as well as many from the surrounding areas.
I have friends in Israel (Jerusalem) who have been there ministering Christ for 25 years discreetly. They were not able to do any evangelism on the streets or in any of the public areas and have honored that mandate, having not been able to evangelize and make disciples as they would like to. They have remained faithful to their call and have seen God bring in souls one by one over long term investments into the lives of the Jewish people living among them. The lives they live have touched the hearts of many of the Jews in this call they have from God, being very patient and longsuffering without bringing offence.
They use the Torah and the promises made to Abraham to win the Jews showing them Christ in the scriptures. They have learned as a Gentile to live as a Jew unto the Jews and are loved among the Jews as one of their own. That takes the a certain depth and height of the love of God and a restraint of the Holy Spirit to be tempered in such a way as to be able to live among those who would naturally be hostile to the Gentile and especially one who is a follower of Christ. No one can make 'aliyah' as a Gentile or as a professing Christian Jew and I know that as a fact. Perhaps Pastor Hagee does not openly preach Christ to them in the forum he has been given, but if given the chance to do so through an open door, I do not believe he would hesitate and be disobedient to the Holy Spirit because of his heart toward God and the cross of Christ over these past 52 years of ministering. Don't be too strict with him concerning your feelings about his belief in a dual covenant.
BradC
I have friends in Israel (Jerusalem) who have been there ministering Christ for 25 years discreetly. They were not able to do any evangelism on the streets or in any of the public areas and have honored that mandate, having not been able to evangelize and make disciples as they would like to. They have remained faithful to their call and have seen God bring in souls one by one over long term investments into the lives of the Jewish people living among them. The lives they live have touched the hearts of many of the Jews in this call they have from God, being very patient and longsuffering without bringing offence.
They use the Torah and the promises made to Abraham to win the Jews showing them Christ in the scriptures. They have learned as a Gentile to live as a Jew unto the Jews and are loved among the Jews as one of their own. That takes the a certain depth and height of the love of God and a restraint of the Holy Spirit to be tempered in such a way as to be able to live among those who would naturally be hostile to the Gentile and especially one who is a follower of Christ. No one can make 'aliyah' as a Gentile or as a professing Christian Jew and I know that as a fact. Perhaps Pastor Hagee does not openly preach Christ to them in the forum he has been given, but if given the chance to do so through an open door, I do not believe he would hesitate and be disobedient to the Holy Spirit because of his heart toward God and the cross of Christ over these past 52 years of ministering. Don't be too strict with him concerning your feelings about his belief in a dual covenant.
BradC
it's bad enough that he clearly believes dual covenant theology - all his denials amount to nothing....all you have to do to find out the damage done to the Christian faith/Gospel (by his insane theology/eschatology) is listen to his disciples. pretrib rapture fanatics etc. (all false doctrine btw).
....i hope for that reason he is NOT trying to evangelize jews - multiplying the errors.
...possibly worse (or equally serious) than all that false doctrine and fanaticism concerning christian theology is his meddling in the affairs of the world - namely calling for war and death....there is NOTHING Christian about his work.
nothing.
....i hope for that reason he is NOT trying to evangelize jews - multiplying the errors.
...possibly worse (or equally serious) than all that false doctrine and fanaticism concerning christian theology is his meddling in the affairs of the world - namely calling for war and death....there is NOTHING Christian about his work.
nothing.
T
Sorry, not Linda. What Peaceful Believer said. Also, I never said anything about a single flavour of evangelical who knows the English word "Jesus" getting into Heaven.
Is it really that difficult? Led and inspired by the Holy Spirit. The writers used their own style to communicate God's Word to his people by way of the Holy Spirit. I'm not suggesting the Holy Spirit dictated his message to them word by word.
Is it really that difficult? Led and inspired by the Holy Spirit. The writers used their own style to communicate God's Word to his people by way of the Holy Spirit. I'm not suggesting the Holy Spirit dictated his message to them word by word.
it's not even Christian Dominionism per say.
some other weird thing.
it would be one thing if the Dominionism was at least based on some kind of orthodoxy...not convinced that's possible, but you know what i mean.
like.....set up Israel to be a totalitarian something-or-other with nukes and strife and whatnot... because you think you're blasting off in a rapture?
wow.
some other weird thing.
it would be one thing if the Dominionism was at least based on some kind of orthodoxy...not convinced that's possible, but you know what i mean.
like.....set up Israel to be a totalitarian something-or-other with nukes and strife and whatnot... because you think you're blasting off in a rapture?
wow.