Do you believe in Moral Absolutes or Eternal Moral Laws of God?
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Conscience also plays a part in morals, and right moral judgement.
The Spirit moves the conscience of the believer.
One man is convicted that they should not eat meat, while another is free to eat anything.
Both are righteous, as long as they do so in clear conscience, and do so to please God.
You will say "this means that if a person sins with clear conscience, then it is not a sin". That is false, as the Spirit always convict the believer of sin, and never promotes it.
I tell you that the fruit of the Spirit are made known in the Word.
The Spirit moves the conscience of the believer.
One man is convicted that they should not eat meat, while another is free to eat anything.
Both are righteous, as long as they do so in clear conscience, and do so to please God.
You will say "this means that if a person sins with clear conscience, then it is not a sin". That is false, as the Spirit always convict the believer of sin, and never promotes it.
I tell you that the fruit of the Spirit are made known in the Word.
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Uh, I was saying moral absolutes is the same thing as eternal moral laws. That is what the word "or" was representing in this case. For example: I was not saying, Do you like your hamburgers with bacon or no bacon? I was saying do like it when K-9's or dogs lick your face while your eating hamburgers with bacon in them?
So you believe there is this concept called absolute goodness but yet there is no actual acts of goodness or right behavior attached to that goodness? In other words, you are saying there is no absolute morals. My Bible disagrees with you. If somebody blasphemes the Holy Ghost they will never be forgiven for that kind of a sin. It is immoral and it is unchanging. You are saying that there is an exception to this? I don't think so. My Bible does not give me an exception and yet you are saying that there is one?
Also, for a man to force himself upon women or children is also wrong. This is morally wrong. Not just in the past, or now but for all eternity it is wrong. If a peson doesn't understand that concept then they do not know Jesus Christ or the Bible. For Jesus said if we were to make even these little ones to stumble, it would be better if there was a milestone hung around their neck. I am sorry. There is no exception to this rule, either. There are moral absolutes or eternal moral laws. It was wrong for Cain to murder his brother. God would never approve of the selfish murder of a good man of God just because a person is jealous of them. Murder is an action that flows from one having hatred for a person. God never wants us to hate people but he wants us to love them. Yes, God has commanded His people to eliminate various enemies, but this was because these enemies were reprobate and dangerous to the Israelites. They were pure evil and put at risk the goodness of Israel both physically and spiritually. This was not murder (Which is selfish and wr ong eternally). God does not approve of worshiping other gods. This is morally wrong eternally, too. We cannot ever worship any being except the Lord (Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh).
But make no mistake. God does not condone immoral unrighteous acts or behaviors.
Also, for a man to force himself upon women or children is also wrong. This is morally wrong. Not just in the past, or now but for all eternity it is wrong. If a peson doesn't understand that concept then they do not know Jesus Christ or the Bible. For Jesus said if we were to make even these little ones to stumble, it would be better if there was a milestone hung around their neck. I am sorry. There is no exception to this rule, either. There are moral absolutes or eternal moral laws. It was wrong for Cain to murder his brother. God would never approve of the selfish murder of a good man of God just because a person is jealous of them. Murder is an action that flows from one having hatred for a person. God never wants us to hate people but he wants us to love them. Yes, God has commanded His people to eliminate various enemies, but this was because these enemies were reprobate and dangerous to the Israelites. They were pure evil and put at risk the goodness of Israel both physically and spiritually. This was not murder (Which is selfish and wr ong eternally). God does not approve of worshiping other gods. This is morally wrong eternally, too. We cannot ever worship any being except the Lord (Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh).
But make no mistake. God does not condone immoral unrighteous acts or behaviors.
For if morality is subjective, then you have to give us some examples of how taking a life selfishly for your own purposes, rape, idolatry, witch craft, being an alcoholic (or drunk), hating God or hating other people can change so as to be acceptable in some cases. You have to explain to us how these things can change and be considered good morally and you have to give us Scripture that backs up that idea.
For example: I remember the point about speed limits signs was brought up before as a defense for this flawed position. The point was is that we regular driving folks are supposed to obey the speed lmits and yet emergency vehicles are breaking this law. Uh, no. Emergency vehicles are not breaking this law. The law was not intended for them. See, in order for you to break a law, it has to apply to you. Emergency vehicles cannot break laws that apply to regular operaters of motor vehicles. If for some reason Emergency vehicles broke speed limit signs that are for regular drivers, then the cops would have to arrest them. The Law for the speed limit signs only applies to regular drivers and not emergency vehicles. If you still do not understand what I am talking about, I would talk with a police officer or somebody at the DMV (And maybe they will be able to help you to understand it).
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I would agree with the OP here:
http://christianchat.com/christian-singles-forum/92986-guardrails-do-you-have-yours.html
Thank you.
http://christianchat.com/christian-singles-forum/92986-guardrails-do-you-have-yours.html
Thank you.
I propose that somebody who does not recognize moral absolutes is either sociopathic or they are leaning towards that type of behavior. A sociopath is a person who does not feel any kind of remorse or sympathy towards other people. Sociopaths will act nice towards other people to get what they want. But Sociopaths really do not really believe in a moral right and wrong. To them it is a foreign concept or alien to them. In other words, even before I was saved, I knew there were things that were always wrong morally. Nobody had to tell me it was wrong when I had gotten caught stealing when I was a young kid. Nobody had to tell me it was wrong when I seen other teenagers harrass or beat up other kids. I understood that there was a right and wrong way of doing things within a given situation.
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All absolute morals stem from God. Without Him in our hearts we simply have the morality we were taught. Native americans prior to the invasion of settlers were great examples of this. They weren't raised to understand mercy, only strength. If a child is raised to disrespect women, to see in black and white etc. that is what they know and believe. The heart is sick and the brain is vulnerable to suggestion.
I believe this to be the case when people are indoctrinated to be believe certain immoral things within the Bible.
Here are a couple of wrong things I believe are immoral (and wrong to say):
#1. Judas was saved when he committed suicide.
#2. Samson was not saved.
#3. God told Hosea to marry a prostitute.
#4. God commanded his people to murder other people.
#5. Jesus made intoxicating wine (and possibly even contributed to people who were already drunk).
#6. Saul was saved and his practice in witchcraft involved a real vision from God.
#7. We can abide in unrepentant sin and still be saved (i.e. Believers can openly rebel against God habitually with no remorse and still be saved).
Here are a couple of wrong things I believe are immoral (and wrong to say):
#1. Judas was saved when he committed suicide.
#2. Samson was not saved.
#3. God told Hosea to marry a prostitute.
#4. God commanded his people to murder other people.
#5. Jesus made intoxicating wine (and possibly even contributed to people who were already drunk).
#6. Saul was saved and his practice in witchcraft involved a real vision from God.
#7. We can abide in unrepentant sin and still be saved (i.e. Believers can openly rebel against God habitually with no remorse and still be saved).
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Then you should in no way use your own worldly judgements to contradict what the bible wrote. At the party where Jesus turned the water into wine, the man said "most people use the good wine first and then when everyone is well drunk they bring out the bad wine, but you have saved the good wine for last" I have personal experience in that. There is nothing in that scripture to support your view and whether or not you judge Jesus as righteous for His actions doesn't give you the right to "rewrite" what the scripture says. Jesus said that John baptist came neither eating nor drinking. Did John not drink water? it was referring to alcohol. Jesus said He came eating and drinking and they called Him a wine bibber. Now I don't think it's really worthy to argue. Jesus did whatever it was that Jesus saw fit to do. It changes nothing in my life or in yours so why are you so adamant as to rewrite that which is written, do you not fear that you are maiming the Word?
So if you had a vision you believe might be from God that told you to mow down a bunch of children with a machine gun or to do something you believed to be wrong or sinful, you would just do it?
See, I believe I can know God is good. His righteous and good ways are not a mystery to me. I am not in a Mystery religion. I am in a relationship with Jesus Christ and He can teach me His good ways. I can know them. For the Spirit guides me into all truth. God is not the author of confusion. He is not going to tell me to do good and then turn around and tell me to do something bad.
For Abraham did not believe he was going to just permanently murder his son. Hebrews 11:19 tells us Abraham believed God was going to resurrect Isaac. If Abraham did not believe God was going to resurrect Isaac, and that God was asking him to permanently take the life of his son, then I would believe this to be wrong because God does not ask us to break His own eternal moral Laws. God is good and His standard for righteousness is always good and knowable.
See, I believe I can know God is good. His righteous and good ways are not a mystery to me. I am not in a Mystery religion. I am in a relationship with Jesus Christ and He can teach me His good ways. I can know them. For the Spirit guides me into all truth. God is not the author of confusion. He is not going to tell me to do good and then turn around and tell me to do something bad.
For Abraham did not believe he was going to just permanently murder his son. Hebrews 11:19 tells us Abraham believed God was going to resurrect Isaac. If Abraham did not believe God was going to resurrect Isaac, and that God was asking him to permanently take the life of his son, then I would believe this to be wrong because God does not ask us to break His own eternal moral Laws. God is good and His standard for righteousness is always good and knowable.