Doctrine of Justification

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John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#41
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James' concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
So the Lord has demanded that we must have works to others to justify our faith? How much works? I know lost people who have more good works than most believers. How can works justify anything to anyone? Paul talks about a man who's works were burned, but he himself was saved.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#42
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When James and Paul write about saving faith, they're not contradicting each other--they are just looking at faith from different perspectives. Paul is looking a faith from above--from the divine perspective. God knows the quality of a person's faith without having to see the results. James, on the other hand, is looking at faith from the ground level--from the human perspective. We cannot see the heart, as God can, but we can see the results in the life of a person who claims to have faith.
Why try to harmonize them? Why not leave them alone and allow them to stand as is? I rightly divide the word of God into dispensations in order not to follow doctrine set forth for those before the Church Age began and after the rapture of the church thus ending the Church Age. I see James as doctrine to the tribulation Jew working his way through the tribulation with faith plus works in order to be ushered in to the Millennial Kingdom.

Who is James' audience anyway?
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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#43
The faith that I'm banking on is not my own. My faith may waiver, but Christ's faith never waivers. Either the KJV is wrong or all the rest are wrong. One stands alone once again.
In 1 Peter 1:9, the KJV says - Receiving the end of YOUR faith, even the salvation of your souls.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#44
In 1 Peter 1:9, the KJV says - Receiving the end of YOUR faith, even the salvation of your souls.
The rapture happens in Paul's epistles. This Scripture would be to those after the Church Age, during the tribulation, those getting ready for the kingdom on earth. The audience would be the same as James'...the twelve tribes scattered abroad. See James 1 and 1 Peter 1.
 
May 28, 2016
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#45
We are justified by Hes grace through faith by works (obedience, action). Faith without works/action/obedience is dead.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#46
Ephesians 2:4-10 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

[SUP]6 [/SUP] and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Because we are saved by grace through faith only - we have good works to do but they are His works in and through us. We are created "for" good works...not to be saved or remain saved by doing good works.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#47
We are justified by Hes grace through faith by works (obedience, action). Faith without works/action/obedience is dead.
What and how many works does one need to do to be justified? I know of many lost people who do good works.
 
May 28, 2016
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#48
What and how many works does one need to do to be justified? I know of many lost people who do good works.
We are justified by He's work for us not our own. However we are saved from our sins when we repent and walk in the newness of life, which means obedience.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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#49
John146 said:
Notice that Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, leaves out the word "his." The OT saint lived by his individual faith that must be justified by his works, his obedience to whatever God had given him to obey whether it was the law, building an ark, or sacrificing your son.
We have the same faith OT believers had. There is only one faith (Eph 4:5). And the object of our faith is the same as OT believers --- our Lord Jesus Christ, Messiah.



John146 said:
The NT believer is justified by the faith of Christ, not one's individual faith. Christ has done all the work needed for justification. The moment one believes the gospel, Christ's faith is imputed to that person, justifying him.

Christ's faith was not even available to the OT saint. See Galatians 3:

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
In Gal 3:22 , the words "faith of Jesus Christ" are the Greek words pisteōs Iēsou Christou. The word "of" was supplied by the translators of the text. And as mailmandan has pointed out, the NKJV, ESV and the NIV all read "faith in Christ."

We do read in Hebrew 12:2 that Jesus is the author and finisher of faith.

Here is information concerning the word "author":

747 arxēgós (from 746/arxḗ, "the first" and 71/ágō, "to lead") – properly, the first in a long procession; a file-leader who pioneers the way for many others to follow. 747 (arxēgós) does not strictly mean "author," but rather "a person who is originator or founder of a movement and continues as the leader – i.e. 'pioneer leader, founding leader' " (L & N, 1, 36.6).

copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.
For complete text and additional resources visit:
HelpsBible.com


Here is information concerning the word "finisher":

Cognate: 5051 teleiōtḗs (a masculine noun) – properly, a consummator, bringing a process to its finish (used only in Heb 12:2). See 5056 (telos).
5051 /teleiōtḗs ("consummator") specifically refers to Jesus, the one bringing the life of faith to its complete conclusion (consummation, finish). In every scene of His earthly life, Jesus lived in faith, i.e. receiving and perfectly obeying the inbirthing of the Father's will (persuasion).

Heb 12:2: "Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the file-leader 747/arxēgós and consummator (5051/teleiōtḗs) of the (operation of) faith (4102/pístis), who in place of (473/antí) the joy set before Him, endured a cross (4716/staurós), despising the shame – and in combination (5037/té) has taken-seat (Gk perfect tense), in (1722/en) the right hand of the throne of God."

copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.
For complete text and additional resources visit:
HelpsBible.com
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#50

We have the same faith OT believers had. There is only one faith (Eph 4:5). And the object of our faith is the same as OT believers --- our Lord Jesus Christ, Messiah.




In Gal 3:22 , the words "faith of Jesus Christ" are the Greek words pisteōs Iēsou Christou. The word "of" was supplied by the translators of the text. And as mailmandan has pointed out, the NKJV, ESV and the NIV all read "faith in Christ."

We do read in Hebrew 12:2 that Jesus is the author and finisher of faith.

Here is information concerning the word "author":





Here is information concerning the word "finisher":
I agree with this post. Jesus is the author and finisher of faith! Praise God!

That term "pisteōs Iēsou Christou" used in Gal 3:22 and a similar term used in Gal. 2:20 - these are in the genitive case which is a case of "possession - ownership - belonging to".

Genitive Case
For the most part, the genitive is often viewed as the case of possession

(In Greek the word "of" is not present, but it is supplied in English in the translation of the genitive case).

Greek Nouns (Shorter Definitions)

Personally I believe it is the faith of Jesus that brought about all things for us. It's our faith in what we hear that He has done that brings about life to us. Jesus' faith is the source of all faith for us so in that sense we are saved by His faith which supplies faith for us.

So, to me - both Jesus' faith and our faith are utilized for salvation but the source is Jesus' faith and what He has already done for us.

Just my thoughts on the subject....
:)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,650
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#51
I agree with this post. Jesus is the author and finisher of faith! Praise God!

That term "pisteōs Iēsou Christou" used in Gal 3:22 and a similar term used in Gal. 2:20 - these are in the genitive case which is a case of "possession - ownership - belonging to".

Genitive Case
For the most part, the genitive is often viewed as the case of possession

(In Greek the word "of" is not present, but it is supplied in English in the translation of the genitive case).

Greek Nouns (Shorter Definitions)

Personally I believe it is the faith of Jesus that brought about all things for us. It's our faith in what we hear that He has done that brings about life to us. Jesus' faith is the source of all faith for us so in that sense we are saved by His faith which supplies faith for us.

So, to me - both Jesus' faith and our faith are utilized for salvation but the source is Jesus' faith and what He has already done for us.

Just my thoughts on the subject....
:)

That's good, but...Galatians 3 talks about before faith had come and after faith had come, referring to Christ's faith. Christ's faith was not available to the OT saints. I've seen not OT saint "looking forward to the cross." Many knew a Messiah was coming, but had no idea of that Messiah's death on the cross, burial and resurrection. Most prophesies point to the Messiah's reign as Israel's king over the earth.

Would you not agree?
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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#52
So the Lord has demanded that we must have works to others to justify our faith? How much works?
It's not about how much works. If you were put on trial for being a Christian would there be any evidence at all to convict you? If there was no evidence at all, NOTHING, then why would the jury convict you? Says-claims to have faith but has no works (James 2:14). Where is the evidence that you do really have faith? That is James' concern.

I know lost people who have more good works than most believers.
Without faith it's impossible to please God. Does God see works done by unbelievers as genuine good works or filthy rags?

How can works justify anything to anyone?
We show our faith by our works (James 2:18). Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22, yet when Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. That is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

Paul talks about a man who's works were burned, but he himself was saved.
This is the context of the passage. We can apply it for works built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. Some of them are of gold, silver and precious stones, but others of wood, hay and straw. These latter ones will be burned.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#53
That's good, but...Galatians 3 talks about before faith had come and after faith had come, referring to Christ's faith. Christ's faith was not available to the OT saints. I've seen not OT saint "looking forward to the cross." Many knew a Messiah was coming, but had no idea of that Messiah's death on the cross, burial and resurrection. Most prophesies point to the Messiah's reign as Israel's king over the earth.

Would you not agree?
But they should have been looking to the death of Jesus as well. Isaiah 53 is quite clear to the enlightened heart..
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#54
It's not about how much works. If you were put on trial for being a Christian would there be any evidence at all to convict you? If there was no evidence at all, NOTHING, then why would the jury convict you? Says-claims to have faith but has no works (James 2:14). Where is the evidence that you do really have faith? That is James' concern.

Without faith it's impossible to please God. Does God see works done by unbelievers as genuine good works or filthy rags?

We show our faith by our works (James 2:18). Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22, yet when Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. That is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

This is the context of the passage. We can apply it for works built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. Some of them are of gold, silver and precious stones, but others of wood, hay and straw. These latter ones will be burned.
So is our justification done for God's sake or for man's sake? When Abraham offered up Isaac, was he justifying himself before God or man?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#55
But they should have been looking to the death of Jesus as well. Isaiah 53 is quite clear to the enlightened heart..
Isaiah is only clear to us because we have the rest of the story. Is the cross mentioned? The resurrection? No, we can read into it, but most prophecy was not understood even by the prophets themselves. See 1 Peter 1.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#56
That's good, but...Galatians 3 talks about before faith had come and after faith had come, referring to Christ's faith. Christ's faith was not available to the OT saints. I've seen not OT saint "looking forward to the cross." Many knew a Messiah was coming, but had no idea of that Messiah's death on the cross, burial and resurrection. Most prophesies point to the Messiah's reign as Israel's king over the earth.

Would you not agree?
I don't know the answer to that as I have not thought about it.

I know that some prophesied about the grace that was to come...and David certainly tapped into the grace or he would have been killed for his sins ...


1 Peter 1:8-11 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.


 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#57
Why try to harmonize them?
Why not? Scripture must harmonize with Scripture.

Why not leave them alone and allow them to stand as is?
Because we would have a contradiction.

I rightly divide the word of God into dispensations in order not to follow doctrine set forth for those before the Church Age began and after the rapture of the church thus ending the Church Age.

I see James as doctrine to the tribulation Jew working his way through the tribulation with faith plus works in order to be ushered in to the Millennial Kingdom.
We should rightly divide the word of truth, yet certain dispensational teachers can get carried away. I don't see salvation by faith plus works for tribulation Jews in James chapter 2. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" James goes on to say in vs. 17 - Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. That is his concern.

In Matthew 12:37, Jesus said - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

Who is James' audience anyway?
The twelve tribes which are scattered abroad.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#58
The rapture happens in Paul's epistles. This Scripture would be to those after the Church Age, during the tribulation, those getting ready for the kingdom on earth. The audience would be the same as James'...the twelve tribes scattered abroad. See James 1 and 1 Peter 1.
the rapture occurs at the end.. Those who are left immediately face final judgment,. Both Peter and James were written to the church described in their own way. There will be no 'kingdom' on earth. The rapture results in the eternal kingdom.,


James is obviously writing to CHRISTIANS.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#59
I don't know the answer to that as I have not thought about it.

I know that some prophesied about the grace that was to come...and David certainly tapped into the grace or he would have been killed for his sins ...


1 Peter 1:8-11 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.


1 Peter 1:12, "Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."


Not only did those prophets not understand, but the angels also desired to look into to the understanding of these prophesies.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,650
3,535
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#60
the rapture occurs at the end.. Those who are left immediately face final judgment,. Both Peter and James were written to the church described in their own way. There will be no 'kingdom' on earth. The rapture results in the eternal kingdom.,


James is obviously writing to CHRISTIANS.
No tribulation period, Jacob's trouble, no Millennium reign of Christ? At what time is Satan bound 1,000 years and then let loose for a season?