Does Cain typify the Jews, while Abel typifies Christ?

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Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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#1
Augustine's comparison of Cain with the Jews and Abel with Christ (or his church) seems rather good to me. Many protestants, however, reject it maybe just because Augustine was Catholic.

The Jews deep inside knew that God was pleased with Jesus and that's why they got jealous and killed Him. Some decades later the Jews became restless wanderers on the earth. They received a mark from God -- a strong religious and national identity -- that keeps them immortal as a nation.

If Augustine's interpretation is wrong, what would be the correct one?

 
Dec 12, 2013
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#2
Cain represented the lost <--- and note he makes Jude as a false teacher having offered his works before God in The account in Genesis

Abel represented the lineage of faith (saved) and offered blood before God as was accepted <--Note two things...he makes the 11th chapter of Hebrews about faith and this proves he understood the promise of the redeemer found in Genesis 3:15 and possibly the account of God shedding blood to make coats of animal skins to COVER Adam and Eve after the fall!
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#3
Cain represents flesh. Abel the spirit.

Offering up the works of his hands Cains offering is rejected but he is not showing God's grace.

Abel offering excepted but killed out of jealousy his voice still heard by God after death.

D ....I'm shocked you missed that.....after your thread of ...not by works.

Also the same with Jacob and Esau. Esau type of flesh.......Jacob going for the blessings.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#4
Cain represents flesh. Abel the spirit.

Offering up the works of his hands Cains offering is rejected but he is not showing God's grace.

Abel offering excepted but killed out of jealousy his voice still heard by God after death.

D ....I'm shocked you missed that.....after your thread of ...not by works.

Also the same with Jacob and Esau. Esau type of flesh.......Jacob going for the blessings.
I missed what exactly......Just pointed out my view between the two...a very concise view......no need to write a book :)
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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#5
Hi Marcelo,

I wouldn't go along with Augustine's comparison either. It makes no sense.

Abel, by faith offered the better sacrifice.

Cain was warned that sin was crouching at his door and he must master it. Did he obey God? No, instead he went and murdered his brother Abel.

By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. Hebrews 11:4

Abel - obedience - faith - saint
Cain - disobedience - with out faith - sinner
 
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loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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#6
Hi Marcelo,

I wouldn't go along with Augustine's comparison either. It makes no sense.

Abel, by faith offered the better sacrifice.

Cain was warned that sin was crouching at his door and he must master it. Did he obey God? No, instead he went and murdered his brother Abel.

By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. Hebrews 11:4

Abel - obedience - faith - saint
Cain - disobedience - with out faith - sinner

Beautiful way to present Truth....
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
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#7
Augustine's comparison of Cain with the Jews and Abel with Christ (or his church) seems rather good to me. Many protestants, however, reject it maybe just because Augustine was Catholic.

The Jews deep inside knew that God was pleased with Jesus and that's why they got jealous and killed Him. Some decades later the Jews became restless wanderers on the earth. They received a mark from God -- a strong religious and national identity -- that keeps them immortal as a nation.

If Augustine's interpretation is wrong, what would be the correct one?

Augustine's comparison of Cain and Abel was wrong on both accounts. The story about Cain and Abel tells many things about the period, Man and God.

As far as the Jews being jealous because God was pleased with Jesus and killed him? I think yoiu need to study the Bible for yourself. The Pharisees were waiting for a Messiah that would be a leader and conqueror. They wanted them to remove the Romans from around their neck. Yet, Jesus came in as a teacher and only ALLOWED one time to be called the Messiah. In fact, if you are in Israel pickup a few of the those free rocks that 'did not cry out'. Look that one up and study from it to get your answer.

As far as the Jews being restless wanderers on the earth,,,one could say that but only in the context that God was the one pushing them. In fact because the Pharisees and others did not know of Jesus' coming (April 6, 32AD), the Nation of Israel in 70 AD was placed in Diasporia and Blinded from the fact that Jesus is the Messiah and was the savior they denied.

God brought the nation of Israel Back from 2 thousand years of Diasporia and did it in ONE DAY, fulfilling a prophecy of old. In fact, approx. 10 prophecies were fulfilled that faithful day in 1948. No other nation can claim to do what Israel did. Also Notice that when the Muslims and other Gentiles have control of the land, it is barren with sand and nothingness. Look at Israel, green, productive. lush with agriculture and then tell me God is not with them. Actually, Is is a repeat of old when Israel took back the land of Canaan. Israel is here to stay.

Also be aware that Rome Fell during the time of Augustine. Wonder Why?


 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
1,915
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#8
Maybe. I think the Jews killed Jesus because they expected an end to their subjugation at the hands of foreign rulers. (Read Maccabees).

It was extremely oppressive for them to be under the thumb of pagan empires, and they wanted a man of war like Judas Maccabaeus to overthrow the foreign rulers. They probably also figured that Daniel's 70 weeks were up, and now it was time for self-rule again.




Augustine's comparison of Cain with the Jews and Abel with Christ (or his church) seems rather good to me. Many protestants, however, reject it maybe just because Augustine was Catholic.

The Jews deep inside knew that God was pleased with Jesus and that's why they got jealous and killed Him. Some decades later the Jews became restless wanderers on the earth. They received a mark from God -- a strong religious and national identity -- that keeps them immortal as a nation.

If Augustine's interpretation is wrong, what would be the correct one?

 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
190
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#9
Maybe. I think the Jews killed Jesus because they expected an end to their subjugation at the hands of foreign rulers. (Read Maccabees).

It was extremely oppressive for them to be under the thumb of pagan empires, and they wanted a man of war like Judas Maccabaeus to overthrow the foreign rulers. They probably also figured that Daniel's 70 weeks were up, and now it was time for self-rule again.
reminded me of this:


Luke 23

8And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him. 9Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing. 10And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him. 11And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate. 12And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,298
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#10
Abel - obedience - faith - saint
Cain - disobedience - with out faith - sinner
Just adding to this, in relation to what DCon and Potter said...

Abel is of the Spirit (saved), and Cain of the flesh (lost).

Just different ways of saying the same thing, really :)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#11
I don't see how anyone can say they are a Christian who says he gives over his life to following Christ and also say Cain represents the Jews. The book of Romans speaks of the Jews and Christ in depth.

Romans explains that the Jews are blinded for our sake, among other things. We are to leave handling their blindness to God and not judge it or try to handle it ourselves.

They were given fleshly things to do to lead them to obey. Paul said those things were like a person assigned to protecting children on their way to school and we are given the Holy Spirit we are to use like this protector---to guide us the same way. When apostles were sent to the gentiles we were told doing the fleshly things was not important, but it is important that we obey what these practices were to lead us to.

Most of the church is not listening to the Holy Spirit. Nothing we do every day leads us to obedience while everything Jews do leads them to God, even eating and washing their hands. It is not a false God they worship like the Muslims, or even some of our churches who misrepresent God. They know of the Messiah, they are blinded to the knowledge of the one we know,

In Zech 8:23 we are told that in the last days we will take firm hand of a Jew asking to go with him because we have heard God is with you.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
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#12
I don't see how anyone can say they are a Christian who says he gives over his life to following Christ and also say Cain represents the Jews. The book of Romans speaks of the Jews and Christ in depth.

Romans explains that the Jews are blinded for our sake, among other things. We are to leave handling their blindness to God and not judge it or try to handle it ourselves.

They were given fleshly things to do to lead them to obey. Paul said those things were like a person assigned to protecting children on their way to school and we are given the Holy Spirit we are to use like this protector---to guide us the same way. When apostles were sent to the gentiles we were told doing the fleshly things was not important, but it is important that we obey what these practices were to lead us to.

Most of the church is not listening to the Holy Spirit. Nothing we do every day leads us to obedience while everything Jews do leads them to God, even eating and washing their hands. It is not a false God they worship like the Muslims, or even some of our churches who misrepresent God. They know of the Messiah, they are blinded to the knowledge of the one we know,

In Zech 8:23 we are told that in the last days we will take firm hand of a Jew asking to go with him because we have heard God is with you.

Those things were to bring us the Messiah who leads us in Faith to GOD under Grace.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
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#13
John 4

20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
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#14
Augustine's comparison of Cain with the Jews and Abel with Christ (or his church) seems rather good to me. Many protestants, however, reject it maybe just because Augustine was Catholic.

The Jews deep inside knew that God was pleased with Jesus and that's why they got jealous and killed Him. Some decades later the Jews became restless wanderers on the earth. They received a mark from God -- a strong religious and national identity -- that keeps them immortal as a nation.

If Augustine's interpretation is wrong, what would be the correct one?

I see this as propagation of "anti-Semitism" which is totally unbiblical. Seth is in the direct lineage leading to Jesus, King of the Jews. Even thought the names are very close, Cain's lineage is listed in Genesis 4:17-24, and Seth's lineage is listed in Genesis 5:6-32. Verse 32 ends up with Noah, and the lineage of the Jews starts again with "Shem." To confirm this, we read in Luke 3:23-38, Jesus' lineage all the way back to Adam. Luke 3:36 mention Noah (Noe) and his son Shem (Sem). Therefore, Cain, in no way can be equated with being of the lineage of the Jews. Constantine was anti-Semitic, and the Catholic counsil of Nicene confirmed this.

Paul said "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 10:32 and 1 Corinthians 12:13)

If I were conversing with Augustine, I would say to him, "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." (John 4:22)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,287
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#15
...........not to me, but not trying to get them to be symbolic......they were REAL people........sometimes it's just a story of what REALLY happened......not a symbolic creation with hidden meanings.......but, now, that may just be me.....or, am I symbolic?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#16
Those things were to bring us the Messiah who leads us in Faith to GOD under Grace.
Rituals did not bring us the Messiah. Washing our hands when we get up in the morning would not bring us the Messiah, but that ritual was given to lead to asking forgiveness for any sin or uncleanliness we might have and start our day right.

We are to listen to the Holy Spirit within us for those morning instructions.


It is through the Lord's grace that we receive forgiveness and eternal life. We cannot give ourselves forgiveness for our sins or even be a human and live a completely sinless life. We cannot give ourselves eternal life, we receive these things only through grace from our Father. No work anyone has ever done from Adam until now has anything to do with what we receive through grace.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#17
Augustine's comparison of Cain with the Jews and Abel with Christ (or his church) seems rather good to me. Many protestants, however, reject it maybe just because Augustine was Catholic.

The Jews deep inside knew that God was pleased with Jesus and that's why they got jealous and killed Him. Some decades later the Jews became restless wanderers on the earth. They received a mark from God -- a strong religious and national identity -- that keeps them immortal as a nation.

If Augustine's interpretation is wrong, what would be the correct one?

Jealousy or robbery?

Luke 20:13-15

Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. 14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. 15So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

The will of Jews or the will of God?

Luke 24:25-27

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Romans 11:22-23
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

John 4:22-24

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
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#18
What? What seams good to you about this? And what Jew saw ever jealous of Y-shua? What mark? The one from Hitler? Does that show you we were reject by G-d?
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
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#19
Augustine's comparison of Cain with the Jews and Abel with Christ (or his church) seems rather good to me. Many protestants, however, reject it maybe just because Augustine was Catholic.

So where does it say that Eve was cast out from the garden of Eden?

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Gen 3:23-24

It doesn't. It says that the man was sent forth from the garden if you interpret the male and female were created man and woman.

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,Matt 19:4

So if Cain when out from the presence of the LORD and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden where he knew his wife and built a city called Enoch, then who is Nod and where did he come from? And where did Cain's wife come from since it wasn't until men began to multiple upon the face of the earth that daughter were born unto them.

"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,..." Gen 6:1

The Jews deep inside knew that God was pleased with Jesus and that's why they got jealous and killed Him.
So if they knew that God was pleased with Jesus then that would indicate that the truth is that Jesus was not the same person as God?

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Mark 8:31

But it is written in Isaiah 53:10;

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

So did Jesus say that he could destroy the temple of God and build it back in three days? If so why where the two witnesses who said he said that he did say it considered to be false witnesses?

59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Matt 26:59-61

So are those who say that Jesus said I am able to destroy the temple of God and build it back in three days false witnesses?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

It seems that Jesus said that if they destroyed his body that in three days he would raise it up. Jesus never said anything raising up the temple in Jerusalem built by Cyrus, the King of the Persians.

If Augustine's interpretation is wrong, what would be the correct one?
Knowing this first that no prophesy of scripture is of any private interpretation, if Abel represents the Christians, then if to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD then why is it written that the LORD said to Cain that the voice of his brother cried unto him from the ground?

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Gen 4:10

So if Eve is the mother of all living, then who is she that opened her mouth to receive the blood of Abel?

And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:11
 
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