Does Sin Destroy Our Relationship with God?
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Yet you persist in dragging people back under the Law to their ultimate condemnation.
You have made it very plain that you believe that the only goal of the believer is obey the Law to the exclusion of all else.
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c]
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d]
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e]
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f]
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[g]
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[h]),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (Gal 3:1-14)
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[c] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not[d] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore,[e] if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”
22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, falsehumility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. (Col 2:11-23)
DM you have yet to convince me that your beliefs are Christian.
Every thing that you DO communicate is absolutely hostile to Biblical Christianity.
I see you as a classic Judaizer with an agenda that is none other than pulling people away from their salvation based on salvation by grace through faith to a works-based abyss characterised by slavish observance of days, feasts and Laws.
This impression is based entirely on YOUR posts - I have no other point of reference.
You have made it very plain that you believe that the only goal of the believer is obey the Law to the exclusion of all else.
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c]
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d]
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e]
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f]
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[g]
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[h]),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (Gal 3:1-14)
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[c] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not[d] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore,[e] if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”
22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, falsehumility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. (Col 2:11-23)
DM you have yet to convince me that your beliefs are Christian.
Every thing that you DO communicate is absolutely hostile to Biblical Christianity.
I see you as a classic Judaizer with an agenda that is none other than pulling people away from their salvation based on salvation by grace through faith to a works-based abyss characterised by slavish observance of days, feasts and Laws.
This impression is based entirely on YOUR posts - I have no other point of reference.
I actually don't care about the post but if you can show it to me in the Bible (even the OT) I will appreciate it because then our starting point is the same.
People defending grace with no law tells us that Israel (or even us) kept the law for salvation. If you can proof that at least I understand your point of view...
People defending grace with no law tells us that Israel (or even us) kept the law for salvation. If you can proof that at least I understand your point of view...
Talk about hostility........
B
This is still going on? Why? If God has saved anyone through belief in Jesus is there not a reaction? Does any one here not love Jesus? Does anyone here not have a love for anyone like mom and dad, children, wife? Do you not want the best for them? will you not give your best for them?
This GOG thing is destroying so many because it takes focus from Jesus, we start looking at what people are doing and all we see are faults (splinters) because that is all there is (our own planks). Salvation is personal I am Jesus friend Jesus is my lover, Just as you are Jesus friend. The relationship we have with Jesus is our only hope for any future for any of us.
If we love Jesus so intimately why should that not, as with those around us that we love, produce in us the desire to please and do things for them, I like to surprise my children with things, money is tight but they are such a wonderful gift from God to me that they blow my mind, of course I do things for them.
My wife is a different matter, I love her so much, I tell her "I worship the ground she walks on" but even she knows she plays second fiddle to Jesus in my life. But for my wife I also love to do things, but the relationship I have with her is different because it is a two way thing, we do things for each other, and I know what she wants because she tells me, we talk, we have a relationship. She asks me things and I try my best to fulfil her wishes.
It is the same with Jesus but more so, Jesus commands, yet a friend does not command, a lover does not command, there is no commandment in Love, there is request and there is obedience. As I try and be obedient to my wife's wishes, so I know that if Jesus requests anything from me I can do it, He does not ask anything I can not do, He loves me and I love Him so of course I will do whatever He asks of me, or at the very least I will try, as we all do.
I do not say that anything we do is done out of doing from ourselves, the "Filthy rags" scripture talks about, but as I read through this thread that accusation is free flowing from many. I have read this post and all I see is bickering. I am not getting into who is right and who is wrong.
The original post by Grace777x70 was saying about doing things for God through guilt, as if doing could earn our way to the Kingdom, and this is correct because we can not. The posts that followed do not reject this, they added to it. Of course we can not earn our way to God's grace this is a free gift from knowing Jesus. It has also been said on here that if we are not careful we can remove ourselves from being under Gods grace, this is also true, but this state of being does not automatically bring us into the place of earning our way to, or, back to God. This does seem to be a prevalent view and it is this view that keeps us from looking at, and keeping our focus on, JESUS.
When we accepted His rule over our lives it was because God has called us. Each and every one of us, then we start on a life long journey of relationship with Jesus. At first He does command, as He did His disciples, but when they got to know Him He called them friends, His commands became promises, His needs and wants from us become our wants and needs to fulfil His requests BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM.
He is our master, lover, friend and teacher. If any of us move from His way He will bring us back. Yes He uses others to correct our path. But when He does we hear only His voice, we feel only His love, and we reciprocate by loving Him more and more. He is able to bring us to Himself, His servants friends and lovers are His responsibility in the end, not ours to beat over the head with words, but our brothers and sisters who we should show love to and pray for if we feel they are going in the wrong direction.
You all know me by now, I am concerned with "Grace above all else" because the words used to describe it, could lead to complacency within ones faith and that in turn could lead to death. But more than this, I sometimes discern within these arguments a lack of love for our brethren and that in turn could lead to a lack of love shown to the world in which we live, which in turn would lead to hell being full and none of us want that.
Jesus said 'if we love those who love us we are no different from the world', but if we can't love those we are supposed to out of relationship with Jesus, then how can we love those who we know are dying through satans grasp?
This GOG thing is destroying so many because it takes focus from Jesus, we start looking at what people are doing and all we see are faults (splinters) because that is all there is (our own planks). Salvation is personal I am Jesus friend Jesus is my lover, Just as you are Jesus friend. The relationship we have with Jesus is our only hope for any future for any of us.
If we love Jesus so intimately why should that not, as with those around us that we love, produce in us the desire to please and do things for them, I like to surprise my children with things, money is tight but they are such a wonderful gift from God to me that they blow my mind, of course I do things for them.
My wife is a different matter, I love her so much, I tell her "I worship the ground she walks on" but even she knows she plays second fiddle to Jesus in my life. But for my wife I also love to do things, but the relationship I have with her is different because it is a two way thing, we do things for each other, and I know what she wants because she tells me, we talk, we have a relationship. She asks me things and I try my best to fulfil her wishes.
It is the same with Jesus but more so, Jesus commands, yet a friend does not command, a lover does not command, there is no commandment in Love, there is request and there is obedience. As I try and be obedient to my wife's wishes, so I know that if Jesus requests anything from me I can do it, He does not ask anything I can not do, He loves me and I love Him so of course I will do whatever He asks of me, or at the very least I will try, as we all do.
I do not say that anything we do is done out of doing from ourselves, the "Filthy rags" scripture talks about, but as I read through this thread that accusation is free flowing from many. I have read this post and all I see is bickering. I am not getting into who is right and who is wrong.
The original post by Grace777x70 was saying about doing things for God through guilt, as if doing could earn our way to the Kingdom, and this is correct because we can not. The posts that followed do not reject this, they added to it. Of course we can not earn our way to God's grace this is a free gift from knowing Jesus. It has also been said on here that if we are not careful we can remove ourselves from being under Gods grace, this is also true, but this state of being does not automatically bring us into the place of earning our way to, or, back to God. This does seem to be a prevalent view and it is this view that keeps us from looking at, and keeping our focus on, JESUS.
When we accepted His rule over our lives it was because God has called us. Each and every one of us, then we start on a life long journey of relationship with Jesus. At first He does command, as He did His disciples, but when they got to know Him He called them friends, His commands became promises, His needs and wants from us become our wants and needs to fulfil His requests BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM.
He is our master, lover, friend and teacher. If any of us move from His way He will bring us back. Yes He uses others to correct our path. But when He does we hear only His voice, we feel only His love, and we reciprocate by loving Him more and more. He is able to bring us to Himself, His servants friends and lovers are His responsibility in the end, not ours to beat over the head with words, but our brothers and sisters who we should show love to and pray for if we feel they are going in the wrong direction.
You all know me by now, I am concerned with "Grace above all else" because the words used to describe it, could lead to complacency within ones faith and that in turn could lead to death. But more than this, I sometimes discern within these arguments a lack of love for our brethren and that in turn could lead to a lack of love shown to the world in which we live, which in turn would lead to hell being full and none of us want that.
Jesus said 'if we love those who love us we are no different from the world', but if we can't love those we are supposed to out of relationship with Jesus, then how can we love those who we know are dying through satans grasp?
I agree that sin distorts our own perception of fellowship with our Father. Just like for Adam and Eve. when they hid from God. Sin distorts our view of God, our view of ourselves and our view of others. Sin is very destructive and is deceiving. But you are absolutely right - it never affects our sonship.
H
very easy to identify. This is how, any post that states that " we are are not deepening on the works of the law for our salvation but we also need to keep Gods commandments" . They would not come out clearly to say that salvation depends on works. what they do is that they say "yes we are not saved by works BUT we also have to obey Gods commandments". Their post are always a co-mingling of salvation and Gods Commandments .
You are feeling conviction?? Note i never mentioned anyone's name but you are moved to reply,, and you are moved to seek to justify yourself and your hebrew roots preaching.. You call Jesus a fake name.. Woe to you for attacking the faith of many and calling the Name Jesus false.. You call the grace of the Messiah Jesus Babylon ,, You call Good evil woe is coming to you...
1 John 1:7
[SUP]7[/SUP]but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
The Blood of Jesus HAS cleansed me of all my sins. Now take a very close look at this verse. It does not say everybody has been cleansed of their sin. The Holy Spirit says only those who walk in the Light has all their sins washed away.
If you walk according to the Law you are not walking in the Light. Instead you are walking in Darkness and you sins are still on you.
Read the question again disciplemike, its all about our Relationship with God, its not about our Salvation. So why are you trying to change the subject?
Because i walk with God i have no sin because i have been washed clean of all my sins. Therefore my sins i do commit are not accounted against me and have no effect against my Relationship with Jesus!
[SUP]7[/SUP]but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
The Blood of Jesus HAS cleansed me of all my sins. Now take a very close look at this verse. It does not say everybody has been cleansed of their sin. The Holy Spirit says only those who walk in the Light has all their sins washed away.
If you walk according to the Law you are not walking in the Light. Instead you are walking in Darkness and you sins are still on you.
Read the question again disciplemike, its all about our Relationship with God, its not about our Salvation. So why are you trying to change the subject?
Because i walk with God i have no sin because i have been washed clean of all my sins. Therefore my sins i do commit are not accounted against me and have no effect against my Relationship with Jesus!
L
far be it for me to mention 'angels of light'
you know, the devil still asks the same question
'has God really said that?' in our vernacular of religion plus God, we may hear 'Jesus did so much. But he needs you to complete it...that's why He gave us all the law'
why change what you say when it worked the first time and goes marching successfully through the ages with its banner of self-righteousness flying in the face of God
all I am asking is for someone to show me a post where anyone said keeping the law is necessary for salvation, but none of you can. All you can do is falsely accuse. sad.
I know that believers in the Messiah should obey Him, but yet I don't have to make false claims about what others have said.
I think it is call bearing false witness. not good.
I know that believers in the Messiah should obey Him, but yet I don't have to make false claims about what others have said.
I think it is call bearing false witness. not good.
All of this can easily be cleared up with you posting your own confession of faith - in other words your theology.
Not silly statements like those found in your footnote.
Then there will be no misunderstandings about what your beliefs are.
However, given the subjects of all the threads you have started and aggressive way that you have pursued your agenda the only conclusion to draw is that you are a Judaizer.
Not silly statements like those found in your footnote.
Then there will be no misunderstandings about what your beliefs are.
However, given the subjects of all the threads you have started and aggressive way that you have pursued your agenda the only conclusion to draw is that you are a Judaizer.