Does the initial burst of faith require works to NOT be dead?

[Babylonisfalling]

We know that faith without works is dead but if a faith is dead, there is in implication that it was once alive. I don't believe James was talking about dead in the sense of a stone or a butter knife or anything else that was never alive. We don't use the word dead that way and I don't think James was using it that way either. When we say something is dead, it's normally something that used to be alive.

That would mean a faith which is now dead because of zero works was once alive despite zero works. If that's the case, then for a period of time, we have a case of living faith with zero works. From that perspective, works appears to be something which sustains a faith that initially started out with no works at all. Works becomes a type of fuel which (among other things) keeps the faith from dying. Works are still necessary but the first burst of living faith can occur without works.

 

[posthuman]

i am reminded ---

But he said to them,
“I have food to eat that you know nothing about.”
Then his disciples said to each other, “Could someone have brought him food?”
“My food,”
said Jesus,
“is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work."
(John 4:32-34) ​

 

[Babylonisfalling]

I'll put you in the NO column, the initial burst of faith does not require works to be a living faith.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We know that faith without works is dead but if a faith is dead, there is in implication that it was once alive. I don't believe James was talking about dead in the sense of a stone or a butter knife or anything else that was never alive. We don't use the word dead that way and I don't think James was using it that way either. When we say something is dead, it's normally something that used to be alive.

That would mean a faith which is now dead because of zero works was once alive despite zero works. If that's the case, then for a period of time, we have a case of living faith with zero works. From that perspective, works appears to be something which sustains a faith that initially started out with no works at all. Works becomes a type of fuel which (among other things) keeps the faith from dying. Works are still necessary but the first burst of living faith can occur without works.

This is just bizarre. Strange how people complicate something that is so simple.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

I didn't think that was complicated

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I didn't think that was complicated

Faith is the fuel, which empowers works, as we trust God to do the work in us..

It is simple.. But people, because they want to add works, have to make it complicated. And to be honest. it makes no sense.

Just saying

 

[Billyd]

I didn't think that was complicated

If it's not complicated, why are you expending so much energy discussing it?

 

[Babylonisfalling]

If it's not complicated, why are you expending so much energy discussing it?

How much energy do you think this requires?

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Faith is the fuel, which empowers works, as we trust God to do the work in us..

It is simple.. But people, because they want to add works, have to make it complicated. And to be honest. it makes no sense.

Just saying

Now you're making some sense. And yes, I believe that faith would initially empower the first works. That's sensible. And then works strengthens faith, then strengthened faith empowers greater works and you have a divine cycle in progress

Remember this from the other post?

faith works faith works faith works

By the way,
An interesting argument: Could the good works of a nonbeliever somehow lead him to God, even though those works aren't divinely inspired in the mind of the nonbeliever?

 

[Billyd]

How much energy do you think this requires?

If people disagree with me, and I feel that I am correct, when I realize that I am the only one holding my belief, I shake the dust off my shoes and move on. I definitely don't start another thread to discuss the same point.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

If people disagree with me, and I feel that I am correct, when I realize that I am the only one holding my belief, I shake the dust off my shoes and move on. I definitely don't start another thread to discuss the same point.

The two thread pose two different questions within the same subject.
One thread asks if we're saved with a dead faith.
The other thread asks if faith can be initially alive even though there are not yet any works involved.

 

[Billyd]

The two thread pose two different questions within the same subject.
One thread asks if we're saved with a dead faith.
The other thread asks if faith can be initially alive even though there are not yet any works involved.

I see. Maybe. Continue your quest.

 

[VCO]

We know that faith without works is dead but if a faith is dead, there is in implication that it was once alive. I don't believe James was talking about dead in the sense of a stone or a butter knife or anything else that was never alive. We don't use the word dead that way and I don't think James was using it that way either. When we say something is dead, it's normally something that used to be alive.

That would mean a faith which is now dead because of zero works was once alive despite zero works. If that's the case, then for a period of time, we have a case of living faith with zero works. From that perspective, works appears to be something which sustains a faith that initially started out with no works at all. Works becomes a type of fuel which (among other things) keeps the faith from dying. Works are still necessary but the first burst of living faith can occur without works.

NOT EXACTLY CORRECT. That is a false assumption, when in reality they were never really Born Again (eternally spiritually alive). Look at these verses and you will find that the human spirit is dead from natural birth on because of the inherited sinful nature from Adam, until hopefully the Holy Spirit finds fertile soil in that heart and births that human spirit into eternal life:

John 3:5-7 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water (natural birth) and the Spirit (spiritual birth) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "That which is born of the flesh is flesh (natural birth), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual birth).
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Colossians 2:13-14 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


THAT I never knew you is a reference, that moment the Holy Spirit comes into your heart birthing your human spirit into ETERNAL LIFE, and it is not Eternal if you can lose it.

John 3:36 (ISV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

The verb tense of "disobeys" implies a continuous lifestyle of disobeying, for GOD knows none of us are perfect. By the same token, the one who continually strives to obey, does so because that obedience is spawning out of the LOVE OF GOD that was poured into our hearts, the moment the Holy Spirit entered our hearts, enabling us to genuinely BELIEVE.

John 5:24 (ISV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Truly, truly I tell you, the one who hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Romans 5:5 (ISV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

The definitive difference between a genuine Christian and one who only thinks he is, is that LOVE OF GOD HIMSELF, being in our hearts, which produces an ON GOING DESIRE TO OBEY HIM. NO, IT IS NOT OF OUR WORKS, IT IS A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN OUR HEARTS.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The two thread pose two different questions within the same subject.
One thread asks if we're saved with a dead faith.
The other thread asks if faith can be initially alive even though there are not yet any works involved.

I would say no to the first question and yes to second question.

I believe GOD gives us the faith that saves.Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of GOD.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The two thread pose two different questions within the same subject.
One thread asks if we're saved with a dead faith.
The other thread asks if faith can be initially alive even though there are not yet any works involved.

I would say no to the first question and yes to second question.

I believe GOD gives us the faith that saves.Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of GOD.

When I saw that you liked my post I was perplexed and I re-read the question and then I looked also at the title of the thread and It "the title" was clearly a no.

So forgive me but my answer to the second question is no.

 

[p_rehbein]

By the way,
An interesting argument: Could the good works of a nonbeliever somehow lead him to God, even though those works aren't divinely inspired in the mind of the nonbeliever?

No...................The Holy Spirit draws us to God, not any works we do. And, one who is not saved, sanctified is not capable of "good works" as God defines good works. Good works (defined by God) are works that He has purposed His children to do in order to advance the Kingdom.

 

[p_rehbein]

[h=1]Ephesians
2:10[/h]
10.) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Yonah]

This initial "burst of faith can be likened to a Father giving his son a push on his bike when hes first learning to ride, the Father is there to provide balance and even power to teach his son to ride the bike, however at some point the son must learn to balance and peddle at the same time, yes the Father is always there when needed but does not intervene as much as at the first, soon the son learns balance and becomes quite skilled at ridding the bike, he still needs the father but now he is able and well equipped to meet the challenges that the initial training could not prepare him for , but the certain knowledge of the Father always being there when needed enables the son to confidently surmount the challenges faced.

 

[p_rehbein]

Ephesians
2:8

8.) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9.) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10.) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

When I saw that you liked my post I was perplexed and I re-read the question and then I looked also at the title of the thread and It "the title" was clearly a no.

So forgive me but my answer to the second question is no.

So faith is not initially alive and needs works to first give it life?