Does water baptism save us

[posthuman]

After the death of Jesus, He could not save the thief even if He wanted to, not without violating His own testament making Himself unjust.

in the OT Jesus could save anyone He wanted to

what happened to the God who said "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" ?

i thought He still had the final say, and that He did not change.

as far as this covenant and that covenant -- didn't the Pharisees first set on Jesus because He forgave sins? as far as the narrative has been passed to us, Jesus didn't first demand the blood of bulls from anyone he healed, but said "your faith has made you whole"
let's not lose sight of Christ by staring at the letters of a law. it is for freedom we have been set free; it is for this we give thanks!

how great the comfort this thief was given in the middle of his suffering - hanging there condemned, admitting his guilt and accepting the death he deserved, the Lord of Glory was found beside him, with a word of peace, and a promise of redemption and honor and life!

 

[SeaBass]

You are very deceptive and bordering on lying.....is not this the title of your post?

Salvation Not Possible Without Works

And have you not argued your works and Baptism which is a work of righteousness for salvation and or necessary for salvation...

Your a joke dude...for real!

Where have I said I am saved by my works?

 

[SeaBass]

John 4:10 If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him and he would have given thee living water.

John 7:38, 39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Jesus Christ himself refers to the holy Spirit as living water.

John 3:5,6 Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [What does he mean by 'water' here?] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Physical birth - that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

You cannot take the figurative use of water in a remote context as Jn 4:10 and apply it to Jn 3:5. Can anyone take the figurative use of water in Jn 4:10 and force that literal use into any verse that has the word "water"?

 

[SeaBass]

what is amazing (although you will not see it) is that either of those interpretations of water in John 3: 5 are more realistic, More contextual, and more in keeping with the word of God than your baptismal interpretation.

If jesus meant baptism, he would have plainly said so. and not let Nicodemus (who would have never even thought baptism) think it meant something else.

Neither are biblical or use proper exegesis. Making water mean physical birth makes Jesus appear to be too dumb to realize Nicodemus was already physically born for why would Jesus tell a full grown adult standing in front of Him "except you are physically born you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[heavenlyparadise]

being saved means you're born again, redeemed, cleansed. This stage of faith, as being saved is result of loving your brother and sister. The water baptism is just your pledge of your good conscience given to your God, the father of our lord Jesus because of your born again through Jesus's resurrection from the death. Your second life, new life just begun with Jesus's resurrection.
So, water baptism symbolizes your new life has dedicated to God as living(not dead) sacrifice,,it saves you.

 

[SeaBass]

The use of John 3:5 is a popular "proof-text" for those who teach the heresy of baptismal regeneration. Those who teach this heresy claim that to be "born of water" refers to salvation This teaching is false for the following reasons:

(1) The passage says absolutely nothing about baptism.

Water refers to water baptism:

Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13-----------spirit++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body

Both verses are saying the SAME thing.

(2) Jesus is contrasting the natural birth with the spiritual birth. Thus "born of water" refers to the tiny unborn baby enclosed in a sack of water in his mother's womb; and when the water breaks he is born of water.

The new birth has nothing to do with the physical birth...Peter said "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever"

The new irth was something Nicodemus had not experienced but he had experienced the physical birth so again the physical birth has nothing to do with the new birth.

(3) In this same passage, Christ taught that salvation is by faith alone and not by ritual or works (John 3:14-18,36).

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The context of John 3 is BELIEVE, not get water baptized.

None of the verses you quoted have "faith alone" in them.

Jesus taught one must believe, Jn 8:24; repent, Lk 13:3,5; confess, Mt 10:32:33 and be baptized to be saved, Mk 16:16...no faith here at ll to be found.

 

[posthuman]

You cannot take the figurative use of water in a remote context as Jn 4:10 and apply it to Jn 3:5.

has anyone done that? why accuse everyone of it?

Making water mean physical birth makes Jesus appear to be too dumb to realize Nicodemus was already physically born for why would Jesus tell a full grown adult standing in front of Him "except you are physically born you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

have you read the dialogue you're talking about?
Jesus told him, "unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God"
Nicodemus replied: "how can a man be born when he is old?"
Jesus said: "unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God"

now what makes you think our Lord meant by "of water" something other than physical birth - since that is what Nicodemus was talking about? what makes you think our Lord appears "dumb" ?

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
(John 3:12)

 

[SeaBass]

The NT speaks of four Gospels. Not just one.


Paul preached the Gospel which was commited unto him by the Lord Jesus Christ (Gal. 1:11-12) and that was the Gospel of the Grace of God (1 Cor. 15:1-6).

Peter preached the Gospel of the Kingdom in Acts 2:38. He did not preach the Gospel of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection. The Gospel of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection had not even been revealed yet.






Paul did preach something different than Paul. The Gospel of the Grace of God was revealed to Paul by God Himself.


Once Peter understood that salvation had now come to the Gentiles and that the Gospel of the Kingdom was no longer in effect, he came along board with Paul (See Acts 15).

When you read the book of Acts, you should notice that there is a transition from the Gospel of the Kingdom (For Israel) to the Gospel of the Grace of God (Salvation now open to the Gentile Nations).





Today in the Church Age, there is only one Gospel that is in effect and that is the Gospel of the Death, Burial and Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:1-6). But in the time of Jacob's trouble; God will be once again dealing with the Nation of Israel. Hence; as a result, the Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the time of Jacob's trouble. The Gospel of the Kingdom is NOT the Gospel of the Grace of God. Things that are different are NOT the same.


Anyone who preaches the Gospel of the Grace of God (Paul's Gospel) in the time of Jacob's trouble will be preaching a false gospel.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is about a Messianic Kingdom, and that is why the Gospel of the Kingdom is Jewish. Therefore, the right Gospel to be preached in the tribulation period will be the Gospel of the Kingdom.

And close to the very end of the time of Jacob's trouble, an Angel from Heaven will have the everlasting Gospel to preach to all nations in the world for a witness unto them that the LORD is coming soon. And that they need to fear God, and give glory to Him, and to worship Him (see Rev. 14:6-7).


Now go and read it. It is there. You need to get that distinction. You need to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15).






Yes we are in the last days now. It is no wonder why the apostasy is so great in the Church. Why there is so much sensuality in the pulpits, the rock music being brought into the congregations and assemblies in many of the fellowships out there. And all the modern versions which are just perversions which come from the Vatican (NIV, ESV, NLT, NASB, Mess, etc.), yes we are definitely living in the last days.






What about the time of Jacob's trouble???

And what about the 1,000 year literal and Messianic Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ?







Well, he may have a chance to get saved during the time of Jacob's trouble (tribulation), depending on how much light they received in this dispensation which we are now in. And for those that will be able to get saved in the tribulation, it will be harder to get saved since salvation will be by Faith AND Works (Rev. 14:9-12).







Wrong again. The 144,000 are literal, physical Jews, who are sealed by the seal of God upon their forehead:


Revelation 7:1-8

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, [SUP]3 [/SUP]saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


When you read that passage, where do you get that somehow it is figurative???


Let me help you out. It is not figurative. It is LITERAL.

You have yet to show me the verse that speaks of gospelS


Paul preached the same one gospel as Peter....."But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed." Gal 1:23


Paul now preaches the faith he once destroyed means Paul was preaching the same gospel faith that Peter and other apostles taught. SAUL once destroyed the one gospel that he now preaches it.

 

[Linda70]

SeaBass, you teach the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration and works salvation.

Are you a member of the Church of Christ or the Roman Catholic Church, perhaps?

 

[SeaBass]

Around n around we go. No one knows where, no end in sight.
Going in circles for 500 years, how many more?

Do you realize that the Nicene Creed states that there is ONE baptism. Historically, the Orthodox Church, including the two bodies that broke from the Church, the Orientals and the RCC, have never had a problem among themselves regarding baptism. There has never been a person who tried to impose some other false teaching regarding it during the 1500 years prior to the Reformation. Only one person, Tertullian disagreed with infant baptism in the 3rd century.

You can give all the credit to Zwingli, who was the first of the reformers to discount all sacraments. He basically took the Gnostic approach that all material is evil and worthless which cannot convey any spiritual grace. Unfortunately all Protestants have essentially adopted that viewpoint, even for those that do have the two ceremonies, baptism and communion. But neither is considered salvific.
So, have at it. You all can go around and around for the next hundred, or more years until Christ comes again, never to know or understand what it is all about.

I am neither Protestant or Catholic for both are man-made ideologies that are biblically wrong.

 

[posthuman]

Water refers to water baptism:

Jn 3:5---------------spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom

why didn't our Lord say:
unless a man be born (physical birth) again (confession & repentance) and again (baptism) and again (by the Spirit)... ?

my copy here says : "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"
only one "again"

let's count:
(1) born of woman
(2) born of Spirit

well maybe we're not counting right - i said "woman" but the Lord said "water" when He spoke with Nicodemus.
(aside: ever heard a pregnant woman waiting "for her water to break" ?)

thankfully, (!!!) the Lord made Himself more clear:
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
(John 3:5-7)

births:
(1) water / flesh / womb
(2) Spirit

i'm still just getting two. am i supposed to count ritual baptism as a 3rd birth? did the evil scribes erase the other "again" ?

 

[Kerry]

Did water baptism save the thief on the cross. Or how bout the man that accepted Christ on his death bed. Reckon what did?

 

[SeaBass]

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.
(Titus 3:4-8)

strangely it appears the scripture teaches that salvation is according to mercy, and accomplished through the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, not by water,
and that good works are a fruit and a result of salvation, not a prerequisite or justification of themselves.

why is this hard to see?

praise God, who opens the eyes of the blind!
He sets the captives free, and every good thing is a gift from Him!
i can't boast of anything i've done or anything i do - there is one name by which we are saved: God is with us!

As it has been shown many times and gets ignored as many times "works of righteousness we have done" refer to works of merit. "Washing of regeneration" refers to water baptism and the verse CONTRASTS works of merit from water baptism.

This verse proves my position, so why do you quote it?

 

[know1]

I have a friend that's an alcoholic but he has been water baptized so his church says he is saved and that's where grace comes in

Absolutely,.....NOT!!!

 

[SeaBass]

Acts 19

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

Verse 5 Paul baptized them in the name of the Lord. This baptism in the name of the Lord is the same baptism of Acts 2:28; Acts 10:47,48 which is water baptism.

 

[Callmebadger]

I am neither Protestant or Catholic for both are man-made ideologies that are biblically wrong.

Congratulations, you just managed to offend over a billion people in one sentence.

 

[Kerry]

Absolutely,.....NOT!!!

Study A.A. Allen's life ( struggled with alcohol all his life) and there are many Christians that love the Lord and are bound by alcohol. Just like cigarettes and bad temper and pornography and more.

 

[SeaBass]

are you the judge of Saul's standing before God?
David, the one that Saul persecuted, would not harm him though he was given into his hand, calling him "the Lord's anointed" -- is SeaBass greater than David?

1 Sam 19 is an example of the Holy Spirit coming upon Saul and his messengers all of whom are lost.

Mr Twisty, the full passage says 1 Sam 26:9,10 "And David said to Abishai, Destroy him not: for who can stretch forth his hand against the LORD'S anointed, and be guiltless? David said furthermore, As the LORD liveth, the LORD shall smite him; or his day shall come to die; or he shall descend into battle, and perish."

David wanted them to leave Saul alone so the Lord could smite him:

" This from the mouth of David was a prophecy, fulfilled eventually in the death of Saul in battle. At this point in David's life, he was honoring the prohibition in the Pentateuch against one's taking vengeance into his own hands, a lesson which was emphasized in his ears by Abigail." - Coffman Commenary.

Guzik's Commentary says:

The LORD shall strike him, or his day shall come to die, or he shall go out to battle and perish: David knew that it wasn't "hard" for God to kill Saul. The LORD was more than able to kill Saul at any time He chose. Every breath Saul took was a gift from God. God could have allowed any wicked man to kill Saul at any time. When it came to striking down an anointed king of Israel, God did not need the services of a godly, righteous man like David!


i. "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord (Romans 12:17-21). If vengeance belongs to God, it does not belong to us, so we are to love our enemies and never repay evil with evil.


ii. We might even say that since Saul deserved it, it was the "right thing" to kill Saul. But if it was the "right thing," this was the "wrong way." Often when we have a right thing in front of us, we will be tempted to pursue it in a wrong way.

 

[Linda70]

I am neither Protestant or Catholic for both are man-made ideologies that are biblically wrong.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

 

[SeaBass]

Kind of like you and flipper....

Flipper teaches man initiates faith and saves himself.....
You teach God saves but you must do works to complete it and or keep it...

You both are wrong and seem to contradict each other on a regular basis....

Man does believe in his heart, Rom 10:9.

Save yourselves, Acts 2:40
save thyself, 1 Tim 4:16

Obviously man has a role in his own salvation.