Don't choke the BABY! Let new Christians drink their milk before you force feed them

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gb9

Senior Member
#301
Jan 18, 2011
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#301
Willie-T said:
THAT is the whole point. We do not know, if all we do is take a version as some men 500 years ago rewrote the original to fit their worldview of what it HAD to mean, and MUST have meant..... according to what THEY believed in the Medieval 1500's. If we do not know the original languages, we need to at least try to study people who have made it their life's work to attempt to understand what the ORIGINAL texts were saying.
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exactly. proper teaching is so important for babes in Christ. a lot of the dis-agreements we have is because of folks doing what you just said- taking a certain translation and just going with it, with no research on the original texts.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#302
Nov 12, 2015
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#302
I have noticed where the word "and" was used in the NT as not a completely different thing. For instance, the Father is looking for men like this, who will worship Him in spirit and truth. So it doesn't mean the Spirit is one thing and the truth is a completely different thing, as in if I were to say: the bowl has apples and oranges in it. But the way they seemed to use and was more as if I were to say, the bowl has oranges and juice in it. Have you noticed this? There are quite a few verses that translate this way.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#303
#303
winnowing fan.

A fan used to separate wheat and chaff.

before it is used, the mixture is threashed on the floor.. then he mixture is put through the fan, which seperates the grain from the chaff.

The grain is then put in the barn, The chaff is then taken out to the fire, cast into the fire,

The threshing comes before the fan, the refining process would be the threshing, (it is what breaks apart the chaff from the wheat) not the fan..
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#304
#304
Stunnedbygrace said:
I have noticed where the word "and" was used in the NT as not a completely different thing. For instance, the Father is looking for men like this, who will worship Him in spirit and truth. So it doesn't mean the Spirit is one thing and the truth is a completely different thing, as in if I were to say: the bowl has apples and oranges in it. But the way they seemed to use and was more as if I were to say, the bowl has oranges and juice in it. Have you noticed this? There are quite a few verses that translate this way.
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ie, it MAY be this way or it MAY not be.

so we are left with context. we have to be careful to think that just because it MAY be translated that way does not mean it always IS translated that way.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#305
Nov 12, 2015
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#305
I think it depends on how you are looking at the verse. Are you looking at it and applying it to everyone else BUT you or are you looking at it for your own inside...

Judgement begins with the church first and He is removing our chaff here and now because He has judged we have it and wants to winnow/burn/remove slag now. We aren't perfected here but we are BEING perfected here and now.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#306
#306
I think Jesus said somewhere (help?) how a farmer lets the wheat and chaff grow together until the harvest time, because if he took out all the chaff, some of the wheat would be destroyed with it..

He spoke of letting Gods children (wheat) live together and grow with the chaff (the unsaved) until the time of harvest, Where God will separate the wheat from the chaff.

at harvest time, the wheat is threshed, it is then separated from the chaff, and the chaff is burned in the fire.

To me this is the view, or symbol, john is using to explain what he means.
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#307
Feb 7, 2015
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#307
eternally-gratefull said:
He is talking in general.

Jesus, when he comes, Will baptize you (in general, all people) with the HS and fire.. (remember, John refused to baptize them in water, yet he said he baptizes you with water, he was speaking in general terms)

again, the term unquenchabe is what gets me, A refining fire is not an unquenchable fire.. It is used as needed to burn away the chaff of our lives..
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An interesting view. But, is baptism for judgment? Or even for "refining?"
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#308
#308
Stunnedbygrace said:
I think it depends on how you are looking at the verse. Are you looking at it and applying it to everyone else BUT you or are you looking at it for your own inside...

Judgement begins with the church first and He is removing our chaff here and now because He has judged we have it and wants to winnow/burn/remove slag now. We aren't perfected here but we are BEING perfected here and now.
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I think he is talking about salvation. How does God separate the wheat from the chaff.. (what will jesus do when he comes to the world?)
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#309
Nov 12, 2015
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#309
Willie-T said:
We cannot say "It COULD have meant THIS.... or, it COULD have meant THIS OTHER. I liike THIS notion, so I will build my belief on THAT."
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I don't see it quite that way. I see the word as literal or spiritual. Or as the letter or the spirit of the words.
To not murder does mean to not bludgeon anyone to death with a bat.
To not murder also does mean to be angry with your brother.

One is the letter. The other is the spirit.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#310
#310
eternally-gratefull said:
I think he is talking about salvation. How does God separate the wheat from the chaff.. (what will jesus do when he comes to the world?)
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to add,

John told the pharisees to show proof they had truly repented (become children of God) before he would baptize them.

He was not talking to them about being refined or purified as time goes on, as Gods children, but about being saved period (repent) so to me this is the context of what he is speaking about.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#312
#312
ie, the context is justification, or salvation, Not sanctification.

to purify a believer, or to burn of the chaff to make them a more pure person would be sanctification.

sorry, these things come to mind after I already posted my previous thought..lol
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#313
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#313
Stunnedbygrace said:
I don't see it quite that way. I see the word as literal or spiritual. Or as the letter or the spirit of the words.
To not murder does mean to not bludgeon anyone to death with a bat.
To not murder also does mean to be angry with your brother.

One is the letter. The other is the spirit.
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And if one obeys in spirit, they won't break the letter either. Or to put it another way, if the inside is clean, the outside just will be too.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#314
#314
Stunnedbygrace said:
He works in us also, right now, to remove the wheat from the chaff in each of us. :)
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Yes he does, and he will till the day we die.

By one offering he has perfected forever those being sanctified ..
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#315
#315
Stunnedbygrace said:
And if one obeys in spirit, they won't break the letter either. Or to put it another way, if the inside is clean, the outside just will be too.
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yes the law of love,

He must birn away our self righteousness, before he can teach us to love others, as he loved us, And that is what sanctification is all about.
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#316
Feb 7, 2015
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#316
I have to admit that I am liking the idea of separating the good in us, individually, from the bad (as has been suggested here). But I am still having problems with that being a one-time "baptism", as compared with lifelong Sanctification.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#317
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#317
Yes! Self righteousness, self will, pride that gets it's feelings hurt and then murders, presumptuousness, arrogance.
These are the things He burns out, because judgement begins with the house of God and He wants us to stand before Him, unshaken, without loss in later fire. :)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#318
#318
Stunnedbygrace said:
Yes! Self righteousness, self will, pride that gets it's feelings hurt and then murders, presumptuousness, arrogance.
These are the things He burns out, because judgement begins with the house of God and He wants us to stand before Him, unshaken, without loss in later fire. :)
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YES!

but this is, from what I have studied, is not what he is talking about in Matt 3
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#319
#319
Willie-T said:
I have to admit that I am liking the idea of separating the good in us, individually, from the bad (as has been suggested here). But I am still having problems with that being a one-time "baptism", as compared with lifelong Sanctification.
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I think both happen.. and we must undertand the difference between the two..

The one would be the milk. the other would be more of a steak dinner.. (something a baby probably could not understand quite yet)
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#320
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#320
Willie-T said:
I have to admit that I am liking the idea of separating the good in us, individually, from the bad (as has been suggested here). But I am still having problems with that being a one-time "baptism", as compared with lifelong Sanctification.
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Well...we are baptized with the Holy Spirit and then that Spirit begins His work in us. The fire part is His working. And it's painful at first, but He has to empty us to fill us with more light...that's kind of how I see it.
 
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