Doubters of eternal security

roaringkitten · Apr 18, 2009

Here is the PRIMARY reason why many think a Christian can lose his salvation:
1)unrepentant sin. Yes, unrepentant sin IS bad works!

Many of these doubters of eternal security define this statement-"unrepentant sin" as "over a period of time"...In other words, some believe that there hits a future time in sin(where it somehow becomes "unrepentant") that he has "crossed over" the time limit for what is acceptable to God and thus becomes lost again...Of course they can never find a Bible verse that says "unrepentant sin over a period of time". That infers SOME who are in sin can be saved while others in sin longer are lost again due to it becoming "unrepentant". Holding this view means God accepts just enough sin from one Christian to another but at the same time some can be lost and some saved. That in itself is a contradiction and is illogical.

The other ONLY sensible interpretation is that "unrepentant sin" doesnt deal with time but is instantaneous to ANY sin you commit that you have not repented of. The very second after you commit a sin and have not asked God's forgiveness you ARE in "unrepentant sin". So you are in unrepentant sin UNTIL you ask God for forgiveness. By their very own testimony, at that point of sin, they are lost to hell. Every time you fall into ANY sin you are lost again(instantaneously).

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." Psalm 19:12

Dont be foolish and think you can remember all your faults, because who can? James 4:17 should be a very scary verse to those who doubt eternal security because that can involve multitudes of situations thinkable. All Christians sin and often times do not even realize particular sins commited(since it can be a REALLY tiny sin that you cannot detect). But by the definition of unrepentant sin held by the doubters of eternal security, you are at that point lost to hell if you do not repent of that sin(s). Dont you see where this gets ridiculous? Where's the confidence in this? The ONLY way to be the most sure of your salvation is to repent of EVERY sin the second after you commit it!

Let me give you a scenario. Lets say I am wrong about eternal security, then you are safe(only in this area) but not safe in ALL areas of potential sin situations. Now what if I am right? What if what I tell you IS true about eternal security? Then you have sinned by declaring God a liar. And that is a BIG sin. You can be perfect in all repentance of all sins in your life but not repent of this ONE sin and still go to hell! Your very own testimony condemns yourself if this is true.

To those who doubt eternal security, take a good long ponder about what I have said. Because basically I have shown you how complicated your position is and you could be going to hell tonight if you die not repenting of the sin of denying eternal security. Unrepentant sin btw IS bad works.

Or you could agree that Christs righteousness was imputed to everyone who believes(Romans 4:5-7) without any works of yourselves(Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5) and that their sins are covered. That every Christian's life is HID in God(Colossians 3:3). That every person who places faith in Christ is sealed with the Holy Spirit(Ephesians 1:13; 4:30), who cannot be plucked out of God's hand(John 10:29). Who has a Savior that saves to the UTMOST(Hebrews 7:25).

Please dont take this as an attack or condescending message. I am very much concerned with EVERY thread I write, and do this out of love to help those who dont understand eternal life. I wrote this thread to hopefully get those who deny eternal security to THINK REALLY HARD about what they are believing, because it could just be that they are trusting ANOTHER Jesus taught nowhere in the word of God(2 Corinthians 11:3-4). I ask those who DO believe in eternal security, to pray for those who do not...God bless!...

MahogonySnail · Apr 18, 2009

Show me one verse that says denying a doctrine of eternal security is a sin and worthy of hell.

MahogonySnail · Apr 18, 2009

If your view of eternal security is right does this mean a person is still saved even if the Father in heaven does not forgive their trespasses?
Mar 11:25 And when you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive it so that also your Father in Heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive your trespasses.

BLC · Apr 18, 2009

When we first believed, we received the gospel and Jesus Christ by grace and through faith (Eph 2:8,9). As we have received Christ, we are to walk in Him (Col 2:6, 2Cor 5:7). We received a gift of eternal life from God who had promised, when we believed by faith (John 3:15,16, Rom 6:23). Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not yet seen (Heb 11:1). For we are saved by hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for (Rom 8:24). Jesus said in (John 6:63) that many had seen Him and believed not. He came unto His own and His own received Him not (John 1:11). Jesus said to Thomas, because you have seen me, you believe; blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed (John 20:29). The just shall live by faith (Hab 2:4, Rom 1:17). We purify our hearts by faith (Acts 15:9). We are sanctified by faith (Acts 26:18). The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith (Rom 1:17) and is unto and upon all them that believe by faith (Rom 3:22, Phil 3:9). We are justified by faith (Rom 3:28,30, Rom 5:1). We have received the Spirit by the hearing of faith (Gal 3:2). Jesus Christ himself came here as a promise of faith (Gal 3:22). Christ dwells in our very own hearts by faith (Eph 3:17). In (Heb 11) we see that all these OT saints (some 18 times BY FAITH) offered sacrifices, overcame death, were warned, called, sojourned, received promises, blessed others, escaped from the enemy, suffered affliction, forsook the world (Egypt), escaped God's judgment, and some who had obtained a good report through faith received not the promise so that we could be made perfect with them. Everything we have from God is by faith and is not seen because it is eternal (2Cor 4:18);

'While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal'.

Think of all these things that God has given to us and every one of them we have received by faith. Why are we having such a problem with the free gift of eternal life (John 10:28)? Jesus Christ is the one who gives unto those who believe eternal life and they shall never perish (John 10:28) Is eternal life not received by faith through Jesus Christ as everything else that we have received from God? Do we make God a lair and charge Him with being unfaithful to what He has promised when we believe? When we believe it is imputed unto us (put on our record) for righteousness and that includes eternal life. Jesus Christ is eternal life and our righteousness. It is His eternal life, as the power of God, that keeps us (1Pt 1:2-5), through the Holy Spirit (which is God in John 4:24) that seals us with that life until the day of redemption (Eph 1:13, 4:30). We had no power or ability to pay for our sins and He did that for us. In the same way we have no power of our own to keep eternal life, but God keeps it for us. I can't 'sin or fail away' God's keeping power nor more than man or the demons from hell could stop Him from being crucified and resurrected from the dead. He was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25), right! When we believed, being also raised with Him (Eph 2:6), we have His justification not ours. We have nothing to do with being justified because we are justified by faith in the work that was finished (John 19:30) on the cross. The work that Christ began in us, when we believed, will continue because He will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6). Anyone that teaches otherwise is not trusting in the one who died and rose again and the power of an endless life (Heb 7:16)

carpetmanswife · Apr 18, 2009

believing in eternal security or not has NOTHING to do with anyone being saved...this is just another,lets get things riled up thread. im done.!

KingdomGeneration · Apr 18, 2009

The more I've researched the issue, I've found that I really don't have a problem with Calvinism in it's purest form. However, while I understand that God extends his grace greatly to new believers, I do not agree with the concept of Carnal Christianity / Hyper-Calvinism.

I do agree with BLC. Scripture indicates that we are saved by grace through faith and that hope is the substance in which faith is made of. However, what happens when a person completely loses faith / hope and decides that they no longer want anything with to do with God or salvation? While I will agree that there is a strong possibility that this person was never truly saved in the first place, I do not agree that God will accept a person into his eternal pressence who once believed yet has since lead a life of complete denial. If God were to do that then He might as well open the doors of Heaven to of those who died in an unrepentant state.

BLC · Apr 18, 2009

carpetmanswife said:

Please don't be discouraged by all this. Let me say this. When you first got saved you probably trusted Christ and what He did on the cross for you, a sinner. You asked Him to forgive you and come into your life. You did that all by faith and you really believed with your heart. Christ came into your life and many things were imputed to you by grace, that you had no idea had been done. But, you learned about them little by little as you grew in the faith of Jesus Christ. God began to give you understanding in your heart and mind about who He is, what He has done and what you have recieved from Him. I think all of us can relate to that in one way or the other as we began to grow in Him.

One of those things that we learned, that was most precious, is that we have been given a gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ when we got saved. It happened instantly as a divine imputation from God. It was promised when we believed and we trusted Christ by faith to keep His promise, which He did. We can't see eternal life but our hope is eternal life based upon what God promised through His Son. We have no reason to doubt it. As we fight the good fight of faith, we lay hold on eternal life, whereunto we are also called (1Tim 6:12,19).

John 17:3 'And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent'.

KingdomGeneration · Apr 18, 2009

BLC said:

Please don't be discouraged by all this. Let me say this. When you first got saved you probably trusted Christ and what He did on the cross for you, a sinner. You asked Him to forgive you and come into your life. You did that all by faith and you really believed with your heart. Christ came into your life and many things were imputed to you by grace, that you had no idea had been done. But, you learned about them little by little as you grew in the faith of Jesus Christ. God began to give you understanding in your heart and mind about who He is, what He has done and what you have recieved from Him. I think all of us can relate to that in one way or the other as we began to grow in Him.

One of those things that we learned, that was most precious, is that we have been given a gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ when we got saved. It happened instantly as a divine imputation from God. It was promised when we believed and we trusted Christ by faith to keep His promise, which He did. We can't see eternal life but our hope is eternal life based upon what God promised through His Son. We have no reason to doubt it. As we fight the good fight of faith, we lay hold on eternal life, whereunto we are also called (1Tim 6:12,19).

John 17:3 'And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent'.

Amen to that!

Thaddaeus · Apr 18, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Ok but remember you asked for it, salvation is the works of Christ , He is the Author and finisher ;
Eph 1:13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise,

after ye believed. not after ye believe and kept yourself clean , ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise , you are tearing God down, belittling Him by saving that He don't keep His promises, salvation Is a gift from God not a reward for those who are perfect Also.

Jude 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,Jude 1:25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

God is able to keep me from falling and present me faultless if you say that you can fall away from His love than you are doing two things wrong (sins) one you are saying you are stronger than God , 2 you are Calling God a lair and that you know more about your salvation than He does , now The one that started this thread didn't say that you would be in hell but rather said that by your own belief you were condemnning yourself

Ro 10:10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Ro 10:11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.Ro 10:12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.Ro 10:13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
saved God says we shall be saved, I believe God, who do you believe?

thefightinglamb · Apr 18, 2009

You are saved to be holy.
You are not saved because you are holy.
But if you are not holy (by Christ forming himself in you) then there is NO WAY you are saved.

What would you be saved from?

I accidently posted this, computer messed up...
meant to write more...

thefightinglamb · Apr 18, 2009

I do not care to cotemplate the anguish of someone caught in debauchery on the last day, especially if they claim to be saved by Christ...it seems they would be tempting the "Jesus is a liar" statement--and not those who believe that living in debauchery forfeits salvation...not those who are caught following Christ, who believe that in this only are we saved.

MahogonySnail · Apr 18, 2009

Thaddaeus the fact remains you haven't given any verse which says those who don't believe in one interpretation of justification that Roaring and yourself ascribes to are going to hell.

It sounds like you believe that a person who believes in OSAS yet commits a crime, is going to heaven. But a person who does not believe in OSAS, is going to hell, regardless of how good a life they have lived.

If OSAS is true, why did Christ say that a servant of His who he puts in charge over his affairs, if he does evil, will suffer the same fate as unbelievers?

Luke 12:46 ....and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers"

Or if you like, please direct me to the apostle Paul's discourse on the OSAS doctrine, and a clear verse that says "those who don't believe in once saved always saved are on their way to hell".

Baptistrw · Apr 18, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

The servant professes to be working for Christ, but actually he is an unbeliever. Instead of feeding the people of God, he abuses them, robs them, and lives in self-indulgence. (This is probably a reference to the Pharisees.) The coming of the Lord will expose his unreality, and he will be punished with all other unbelievers. The expression "cut him in two" may also be translated "severely scourge him" (AV margin).
12:47, 48 Verses 47 and 48 set forth a fundamental principle in regard to all service. The principle is that the greater the privilege, the greater the responsibility. For believers, it means that there will be degrees of reward in heaven. For unbelievers, it means that there will be degrees of punishment in hell. Those who have come to know God's will as it is revealed in the Scriptures are under great responsibility to obey it. Much has been given to them; much will be required of them. Those who have not been so highly privileged will also be punished for their misdeeds, but their punishment will be less severe.

MahogonySnail · Apr 18, 2009

For the OSAS believers, I ask you to consider part of this testimony of a man who was raised from the dead at one of Reinhard Bonnke's crusades:

But if you have a similar personal account from someone who has gone to heaven and come back with a message of "I believed in OSAS so I got to heaven", please post one. I'm not aware of any personally.

http://www.geocities.com/discoverchurch/daniel.htm

Do you know why it says it was most surprising? Because this man obviously believed in OSAS before he went to heaven , that was, until he went to heaven and met God face to face. Being solemning told that he was guilty of angry words towards his wife, and of hellfire, was surely a big shock to someone who thought they were going to heaven because they were always saved.

Which is why I asked before, what about a man who is a Christian but does not forgive others at some point in their life, still saved? Well Jesus said God won't forgive your sins unless you forgive others. How can OSAS be true then?

MahogonySnail · Apr 18, 2009

There's really no indication that it is an unbeliever. Firstly, note that Christ is speaking to His own disciples, not to unbelievers. Secondly note that it is about faithful and wise stewards, versus unfaithful stewards. They are both stewards. Both are committed to a task by their Lord. Both have the same Lord. An unbeliever does not have Christ as Lord. One does good and receives reward. One does evil and receives condemnation. It's a very simple passage to understand, and no need to pretend that it is spoken only to unbelievers. So, there is no room for a OSAS doctrine in these passages.

The story of Daniel who came back from the dead that I posted previously, reminded me of this verse:

Jas 5:9 Do not grudge against one another, brothers, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge stands before the door.
Mat 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

Baptistrw · Apr 18, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

You do realize those stories are total nonsense right?
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 9:27 (KJV)

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2 Cor 12:2-4 (KJV)

MahogonySnail · Apr 18, 2009

Tell that to Lazarus. Who Jesus raised from the dead. I guess he died twice

.
You do believe in resurrections from the dead, I hope?

The problem with OSAS doctrine is that because you believe it is impossible for a Christian to go to hell. You are forced to rationalise the scriptures as you did before, by saying it was spoken to unbelievers not believers. Unfortunately this is what happens when you try and fit a pre-determined doctrine to the bible, rather than get your doctrine from the bible. You are forced to not take Jesus' words seriously about if you dont forgive others God wont forgive you. Can true believers in Christ hold unforgiveness towards people? You bet they can. And if they do, God says He won't forgive them their sins. God won't show mercy to them, unless they show mercy to others. That's what the bible says. Or can you explain how a person who God won't forgive their sins, can go to heaven?

MahogonySnail · Apr 18, 2009

There's four videos here of his testimony, plus a pdf refuting claims it is a hoax

http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/daniel_main

Baptistrw · Apr 18, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

The forgiveness thing isn't for salvation, that's about the Christian life. That backloads the gospel and makes it a false gospel of works. I can see you don't read the entire passage before jumping to a conclusion. Or else you would see some of these things. Read a passage in it's context, which means the other verses.

MahogonySnail · Apr 18, 2009

Ok then, please explain how a person who God does not forgive their sins due to unforgiveness, can get to heaven?

Not really, it takes Jesus's words as clearly written, and in doing so, disproves OSAS.
You are saying forgiving others sins so God will forgive you is a work? Perhaps then we don't need to take note of Jesus's teachings about unforgiveness?

How many verses are there to read? not many. The simple concept is, if you forgive others, God will forgive you. If you don't, God won't forgive you. I don't see any sub-clauses in those verses that this does not apply to Christians because of OSAS.

Doubters of eternal security

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