each is to die of their own sins

[Skinski7]

The thing about legalists, is they minimize the atonement.
In so doing they maximize their own effort.
Thus becoming more important in their own eyes.
Pelagians tend to like to beat the drum of righteousness by self.
Of course, while they do this they subtract from reliance on the Messiah.
It is a vicious circle.
The more righteous you become, the more righteous you need to be.
Until eventually they reach a plateau of self righteousness that they call being sanctified.
But it isn't that at all.

Obeying God is not legalism.

Legalism is seeking justification in outward adherence to the law. Paul spoke against legalism in the book of Galatians...

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The Judaizers were compelling the Galatians to be circumcised thus taking the focus off of the heart to outward rites. In Gal 5:6 Paul says it is FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE that matters.

Righteousness is via FAITH not by outward works of the law.

Faith UPHOLDS or ESTABLISHES the law in the heart (Rom 3:31) because FAITH WORK BY LOVE (Gal 5:6) and LOVE WORKS NO ILL (Rom 13:10) thus LOVE IS A FULFILLING OF THE LAW (Rom 13:10, Gal 5:14).

This "righteousness by self" accusation is an oft used STRAWMAN which is used all the time. Paul stated this...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is the righteousness of God which manifests itself THROUGH a Christian and thus has NOTHING to do with "righteousness by self." The reason you have to resort to strawmen is because you cannot deal with the truth and thus have to create fictional extremes which you can then deride.

Abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (ie. wholehearted submission to the Spirit) IS NOT subtracting from "reliance on Messiah" it is what true reliance actually is.

Your doctrine of righteousness is PURELY ABSTRACT. In other words you disconnect an actual manifestation of righteousness from the state of salvation and thus make an allowance for ongoing sin.

You theology has completely eliminated HEART PURITY from the Gospel and thus you have to continually argue in favour of double-mindedness and ongoing heart defilement.

Your version of "reliance on Messiah" is not abiding in the Spirit of life of Jesus Christ whereby one fulfills the righteousness of the law in them. No, your version is TRUSTING IN A PROVISION which you perceive as cloaking on ongoing filthy state.

You have swallowed hook, line and sinker Satan's lie of "ya shall not surely die" and not only that, you have also swallowed a new lie of "ye cannot obey God."

If such were not true then you would not speak against heart purity and obedience to Christ.

 

[RickShafer]

Me in blue.



An appeasement offering has NOTHING to do with a "Penal Substitution."

I do believe that those who have been reconciled are under a blood covenant with God through Jesus Christ and that we are reconciled to God through repentance and faith via Christ's atoning work. Such things do not mean "Penal Substitution" is true.

Penal Substitution teaches that Jesus stood in your place and was thus punished in your place. The wrath of God was thus SATISFIED and is thus is no longer due. This twists the death of Christ into a purely ABSTRACT legal transaction as the basis of justification.

The Bible teaches that the blood of Christ PURGES THE CONSCIENCE whereby the WRATH OF GOD is expiated because God is merciful. It is in approaching God with a TRUE HEART via the death of the old man (dying with Christ) whereby one has identified themselves with the new man (by walking in the light as He is in the light) that God is willing to wipe away past transgression.

It is NOT a cloak for an ongoing state of defilement which is clearly what Penal Substitution teaches. Penal Substitution leaves people DEAD IN SIN with WICKED HEARTS but with a NOTION that they have been JUDICIALLY DECLARED JUST. This doctrine does not produce the internal cleansing the Bible speaks about.

MANY people are going to stand at the judgment who remained "workers of iniquity" and Jesus is going to reject them. They never came clean before God, their old man was never crucified and thus they were never TRULY born again. There MUST be a DEATH in order that REBIRTH takes place.

Penal Substitution ELIMINATES the death and replaces it with a "judicial book keeping entry." Thus converts under this teaching view themselves as "carnal wretches and sold under sin." Their salvation is based on TRUST IN A PROVISION instead of a literal ABIDING IN THE TRUTH. Light and darkness do not mix. Penal Substitution produces double-minded converts who "still SERVE sin." They are under the delusion that the PROVISION covers their sin service thus they preach the sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent message.

The one point I have brought up which you completely ignore Starfied is this...

This idea that the atonement is a book keeping entry which requires the account to be payed in full by the 'candidate' is pure pelagianism. No where in the Word does it even hint at this.
This is salvation through works.
It is no different than other religions which require application of the tenants of the 'faith'.
I would just like to ask Skinski how this version of 'Christianity' is any different than praying three times a day to Mecca?

 

[RickShafer]

Obeying God is not legalism.

Legalism is seeking justification in outward adherence to the law. Paul spoke against legalism in the book of Galatians...

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The Judaizers were compelling the Galatians to be circumcised thus taking the focus off of the heart to outward rites. In Gal 5:6 Paul says it is FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE that matters.

Righteousness is via FAITH not by outward works of the law.

Faith UPHOLDS or ESTABLISHES the law in the heart (Rom 3:31) because FAITH WORK BY LOVE (Gal 5:6) and LOVE WORKS NO ILL (Rom 13:10) thus LOVE IS A FULFILLING OF THE LAW (Rom 13:10, Gal 5:14).

This "righteousness by self" accusation is an oft used STRAWMAN which is used all the time. Paul stated this...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is the righteousness of God which manifests itself THROUGH a Christian and thus has NOTHING to do with "righteousness by self." The reason you have to resort to strawmen is because you cannot deal with the truth and thus have to create fictional extremes which you can then deride.

Abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (ie. wholehearted submission to the Spirit) IS NOT subtracting from "reliance on Messiah" it is what true reliance actually is.

Your doctrine of righteousness is PURELY ABSTRACT. In other words you disconnect an actual manifestation of righteousness from the state of salvation and thus make an allowance for ongoing sin.

You theology has completely eliminated HEART PURITY from the Gospel and thus you have to continually argue in favour of double-mindedness and ongoing heart defilement.

Your version of "reliance on Messiah" is not abiding in the Spirit of life of Jesus Christ whereby one fulfills the righteousness of the law in them. No, your version is TRUSTING IN A PROVISION which you perceive as cloaking on ongoing filthy state.

You have swallowed hook, line and sinker Satan's lie of "ya shall not surely die" and not only that, you have also swallowed a new lie of "ye cannot obey God."

If such were not true then you would not speak against heart purity and obedience to Christ.

Your whole precept is on judging another.
Your whole dogma is wrapped up in judging another as unclean.
You and your doctrine fulfill the leaven of the pharisees - TO THE "T".
Read what you just wrote above.
"You will know them by their fruits".
The most absurd thing is that you claim a righteous 'grace' while doing it. - (Truly amazing!)

 

[homwardbound]

That verse does not give the slightest indication that Jesus bore the full wrath of God due the sinner.

In fact the Bible clearly teaches that the wrath of God abides on the disobedient. What happened to the wrath of God being satisfied in regards to the disobedient (Eph 5:6, Col 3:6)? Obviously if it still abides on them then it cannot in any measure be claimed to have been satisfied via a substitutional exchange.

Penal Substitution is error and people need to really examine it in light of Scripture. If they do this honestly they will see fall apart and not only that they will see how dangerous a teaching it actually is.


Let's examine the verse you brought up and compare scripture with scripture...

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Does God bruising Jesus therefore putting Him to grief mean that God poured out His wrath on Jesus whereby it was satisfied? By no means, the verse does not say anything like that.

Bruise - H1792 - dâkâ'
A primitive root (compare H1794) to crumble; transitively to bruise (literally or figuratively): - beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.

Keep reading...

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Travail -H5999 - ‛âmâl
From H5998; toil, that is, wearing effort; hence worry, whether of body or mind: - grievance (-vousness), iniquity, labour, mischief, miserable (-sery), pain (-ful), perverseness, sorrow, toil, travail, trouble, wearisome, wickedness.

Soul - H5315 - nephesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Was God's wrath satisfied by the wickedness of the soul of Jesus? That is what the Reformers would like you to believe. No, look at the context of "travail" for it is not that Jesus was made wicked on our behalf in order that God punish Him, no, the vitality of Jesus was made wretched in His suffering on our behalf, a suffering He did not deserve. Jesus did this on our behalf as an example so that "the many" are "justified by his knowledge." The "bearing of iniquity" is not that Jesus was "made into a guilty sinner" so He could be "justly punished." No. Jesus bore our sins in a figurative sense (vice and virtue are moral issues NOT transferable properties) so that WE CAN DIE TO THOSE SINS via DYING WITH JESUS. God is satisfied with this sin offering of Jesus on our behalf for it brings us back to a right relationship with God.

Look at these verses...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Read it again. The real substitution is substituting the "service of sin" for the "service of righteousness."

Look at this verse...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Jesus was showing us HOW TO DIE to sin. Not by obeying rules and regulations but by a DEATH and a REBIRTH. The cross gets to the ROOT of iniquity within the inner man. The HEART must be purged to make it possible to serve God in righteousness.

Look at this passage...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The death of Christ has NOTHING to do with a forensic legal transaction. NOTHING! The death of Christ has EVERYTHING to do with dying to sin and being raised up to newness of life. It has to do with a complete cutting off of the old life (whereby we served sin) and the birth of the new life (whereby we serve righteousness).

Look at this passage...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

No condemnation why? Is it because there was a forensic legal exchange where God poured out His wrath on Jesus thus satisfying the pent up wrath He had and thus does not have to pour it out anymore? NO! That is pure nonsense.

There is no condemnation to them that are IN Christ Jesus. Those who are IN Christ Jesus ABIDE in the Spirit of life which is what sets us free. The law could not do that because it only addressed outward conduct and not the heart. So God sent Jesus Christ in the likeness of sinful flesh and by the life He lived He condemned sin in the flesh. He overcame sin.

Why did Jesus do this? Verse 4 gives the answer.

That the righteousness of God be FULFILLED IN US who WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT. That is the exchange and it is not forensic. It is exchanging "walking according to the lusts of the flesh" for "walking according to the leading of the Spirit."

Modern theology totally blinds people from what the Bible is so plainly teaching. These false doctrines get in the mind and cement themselves in deep and immunise the mind from the simple truths of scripture.

Look at this passage...

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [Key verse here]
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [The body of sins are PUT OFF]
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. [This is a direct parallel to Rom 6:4-7 where we are crucified WITH Christ whereby the old man is crucified and the body of sin is DESTROYED, absolutely NOTHING to do with what Penal Substitution teaches]
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [Compare to Eph 2:1-5]

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [See how the service of sin ceases. In times PAST we walked according to the course of this world, NOT ANY MORE! The time of disobedience is PAST.]
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. [The children of wrath are those who walk according to the lusts of the flesh and mind in disobedience to God. Forgiveness is conditioned on the forsaking of this walk, NOT on a forensic legal transaction where Jesus absorbs this wrath for you.]
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved [It is the QUICKENING which saves. Compare to Jam 1:21 where it speaks of the IMPLANTED WORD which saves the soul. Salvation is wrought via cooperating with God (ie. yielding which means BEING FAITHFUL) whereby the ENERGY of God FLOWS THROUGH US. This is what "saved by grace through faith means."]


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [The law is done away IN Christ, not the righteousness of the law ONLY THE LETTER hence the "handwriting of ordinances" because righteousness is by a "faith that works by love" (Gal 5:6) not via things like circumcision (Gal 5:4-5).]
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [Jesus conquered sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3).]
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [We are not to judge outwardly for rules and rituals have nothing to do with HEART PURITY.]
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Where does the Bible teach Penal Substition? It doesn't, not anywhere. Those who promote this deadly doctrine isolate and proof text single verses and use conjecture to READ INTO those verses their doctrine. Remember this doctrine is only 400 years old. It is of recent invention, a development of Anselm's 11th century satisfaction model. Anselm taught that justice was upheld by the death of Christ while the Reformers taught that wrath was upheld.

Satisfaction Model - Justice Satisfied
Penal Model - Wrath Satisfied.

Traditions of men all of it. I can certainly see some logical sense in what Anselm taught although I see him teaching that which the scriptures do not teach and thus supplanting the "change of the heart" with "justice being satisfied." The Penal Model is complete contradictory nonsense with no foundation whatsoever. People only believe it because that is what they have been taught.

Here is something else Jesus taught...

Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

That is the cross in a nutshell straight from the mouth of Jesus. It is the putting off of the old life for the new.

Penal Substitition is simply not taught in the Bible.

Colossians 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


It is credit to God and only God, not man, not sure if you are promoting man but it seems you are after belief[h=3]Colossians 1:22[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—


So we can by this done issue receive the new life brought to us by the resurrected Christ from God himself just as he raised Christ from the dead.
Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

 

[RickShafer]

"Beware of the leaven of the pharisees, for they say and do not."
"They bind heavy burdens upon men which are grievous to be carried,
- and they won't help them with even ONE of their fingers!"

 

[RickShafer]

The inclination of the natural man is to earn his own salvation.
- This is why all religions do it.
- - Yet there is a relationship that transmits through religion of the natural man.
- - - "What shall we do to do the works of God?"
- - - - "Believe on Him who He has sent."
- - - - -Hard to extoll yourself when you have to believe on the one who sacrificed Himself for you.

 

[Skinski7]

Me in blue.

This idea that the atonement is a book keeping entry which requires the account to be payed in full by the 'candidate' is pure pelagianism. Another FICTION. Why don't you address SPECIFICALLY what I write instead of making up thse fictions. In the parable of the unforgiving servant the DEBT WAS FORGIVEN FREELY, it was not "paid by the canditate." No where in the Word does it even hint at this. I know it doesn't and I never said any such thing. Stop trying to twist my position into fictions, that is deceptive dialogue.
This is salvation through works. Salvation is by GRACE THROUGH FAITH or in other words it is via the LEADING OF GOD/GOD'S EMPOWERMENT/QUICKENING which we put into WORKING EFFECT through being FAITHFUL.
It is no different than other religions which require application of the tenants of the 'faith'.
I would just like to ask Skinski how this version of 'Christianity' is any different than praying three times a day to Mecca? Praying three times a day at Meccas is DEAD WORKS because praying three times does not PURIFY THE HEART. Obedience to the truth via the Spirit is what purifies the heart, not observing rites, rituals, rules and regulations. We have to ABIDE in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

 

[Skinski7]

Me in blue.

Your whole precept is on judging another. Contending for heart purity via abiding in the Spirit entered into through repentance and faith is "judging another." I suppose it could be conceived as such a thing to those whose assurance of salvation is wrapped up in "trust in a provision" while they remain "inwardly defiled."
Your whole dogma is wrapped up in judging another as unclean. The doctrine I contend for is wrapped up in HEART PURITY. Thus I suppose those who reject heart purity in salvation would perceive that their "salvation whilst remaining inwardly defiled" is being "judged as unclean." Well it is unclean.
You and your doctrine fulfill the leaven of the pharisees - TO THE "T". The Pharisees REFUSED to discuss heart purity with Jesus. They wanted to implicate Him as a sinner whilst they completely ignored His exposition of inward purity. Are you not doing the same thing?
Read what you just wrote above.
"You will know them by their fruits". Here is that passage in full...

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The bad fruit are the CONVERTS of the false teachers.

Immediately after those words Jesus teaches that it is the DOERS who will enter the kingdom and it is the WORKERS OF INIQUITY who will be rejected. Jesus also stated that there will be MANY workers of iniquity who will profess His name and claim many deeds done is His name.

False teachers produce converts who remain INWARDLY DEFILED and thus WORK INIQUITY.

Jesus taught this...

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Are workers of iniquity pure in heart?

How does the Westminster Confession line up with that?

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]

Westminster Confession, Ch. 6

II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man;

[7] yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part;[8] whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.[9]

III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail;[10] yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome;[11] and so, the saints grow in grace,[12] perfecting holiness in the fear of God.[13]

Westminster Confession, Ch. 13

The Pharisees denied heart purity as do many of the modern day religious imposters.

The most absurd thing is that you claim a righteous 'grace' while doing it. - (Truly amazing!)

 

[RickShafer]

Now, read what you just wrote:"In the parable of the unforgiving servant the DEBT WAS FORGIVEN FREELY, it was not 'paid by the canditate'."

This is in direct opposition to what you stated here:"Your doctrine of righteousness is PURELY ABSTRACT. In other words you disconnect an actual manifestation of righteousness from the state of salvation and thus make an allowance for ongoing sin.

You theology has completely eliminated HEART PURITY from the Gospel and thus you have to continually argue in favour of double-mindedness and ongoing heart defilement."

Total and complete judgement! You show the love of Jesus like a common pharisee!
Since you cannot reconcile sanctification as the work of the Spirit you must deride those who do.
You depend on your righteousness by comparing it with others.
And you come up woefully short by the judgement you have used.
It is plain to see you must make it personal to make your doctrine work.
I spoke only of your doctrine until you judged me.
Total judgement by comparing works which,(by your words), are wholly inadequate.

 

[Skinski7]

"Beware of the leaven of the pharisees, for they say and do not."
"They bind heavy burdens upon men which are grievous to be carried,
- and they won't help them with even ONE of their fingers!"

The burdens the Pharisees set was OUTWARD REGIMENTATION to the rites and rituals of the Law of Moses. Their hearts remained FILTHY and thus all the ritual observance was utter hypocrisy.

Luk 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
Luk 11:40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
Luk 11:41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luk 11:43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
Luk 11:45 Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.
Luk 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
Luk 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
Luk 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
Luk 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Luk 11:53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:
Luk 11:54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.


Obedience to God is not grevious nor is it a heavy burden.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[RickShafer]

See post #29 to answer the scrolling scriptures of post #30.
You be the judge
"Your doctrine of righteousness is PURELY ABSTRACT. In other words you disconnect an actual manifestation of righteousness from the state of salvation and thus make an allowance for ongoing sin."

"You theology has completely eliminated HEART PURITY from the Gospel and thus you have to continually argue in favour of double-mindedness and ongoing heart defilement."

Now, compare that with the verses of post #30 concerning the pharisees.
- Out of his own spirit.

 

[Skinski7]

Now, read what you just wrote:"In the parable of the unforgiving servant the DEBT WAS FORGIVEN FREELY, it was not 'paid by the canditate'."

This is in direct opposition to what you stated here:"Your doctrine of righteousness is PURELY ABSTRACT. In other words you disconnect an actual manifestation of righteousness from the state of salvation and thus make an allowance for ongoing sin.

You theology has completely eliminated HEART PURITY from the Gospel and thus you have to continually argue in favour of double-mindedness and ongoing heart defilement."

Total and complete judgement! You show the love of Jesus like a common pharisee!
Since you cannot reconcile sanctification as the work of the Spirit you must deride those who do. Not sanctification presented within a context of "ongoing service to sin." Sanctification is "growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ" whereby we become more and more like Jesus Christ. Sanctification has nothing to do with rebelling less.


Let me ask you this. Does a serial murderer have to stop murdering BEFORE God will forgive them? Or do you believe there is a time period where they are in a state of salvation yet continue to commit murder?

Address that issue specifically because it gets right to the root of what you believe.

You depend on your righteousness by comparing it with others. Is HEART PURITY something you cannot discuss? I have noticed through much dialogue with many people that the term "heart purity" is an anathema to them.
And you come up woefully short by the judgement you have used.
It is plain to see you must make it personal to make your doctrine work.
I spoke only of your doctrine until you judged me. Address specifically what I write instead of making "accusations" without substantiating them by discussing what I actually write. It is very easy to resort to ad-hominem in order to avoid the meat of the matter.

Does not your doctrine teach that salvation is purely positional whereby one can be "saved" and yet "still in the service of sin?" It seems pretty clear to me that it teaches that.

I quoted the Westminster Confession where it teaches that "inward corruption" remains in a believer. There is nothing in the Westminster Confession which teaches that "faith purifies the heart" (Act 15:9) or that "Obedience to the truth through the Spirit purifies the heart" (1Pet 1:22). It teaches the opposite that a "forensic righteousness is imputed" as a cloak over "ongoing defilement."

Why is that?

Total judgement by comparing works which,(by your words), are wholly inadequate. I compare "doctrine that is commonly taught" with what the Bible actually teaches.

Here is another scripture...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Does that verse have anything to do with HEART PURITY in your mind?

Opposite? The wages of sin is death and ultimately being cast into the Lake of Fire. That is a "debt" that God FREELY REMITS to those who are forgiven. That debt is not paid by anyone. Instead of directly addressing the SPECIFIC of what I write you ignore it.

 

[RickShafer]

Totally incongruent.
Now asking me about serial killers.
Really Skinski, has your argument come to that?
I not going to argue against your false sense of righteousness.
Your accusations answer themselves.
(Like a return loop of judgmental accusations.)

 

[Skinski7]

See post #29 to answer the scrolling scriptures of post #30.
You be the judge
"Your doctrine of righteousness is PURELY ABSTRACT. In other words you disconnect an actual manifestation of righteousness from the state of salvation and thus make an allowance for ongoing sin."

"You theology has completely eliminated HEART PURITY from the Gospel and thus you have to continually argue in favour of double-mindedness and ongoing heart defilement."

Now, compare that with the verses of post #30 concerning the pharisees.
- Out of his own spirit.

It is abstract, here is what the Westminster Confession states...

I. Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies;[1] not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,[2] they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.[3]

Westminster Confession Ch. 11

This theology (Reformed Theology) has Jesus "obeying for you" and then that obedience being "credited to your account." That is the "gift" the Reformers teach.

Yet the Bible says...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

FAITH is counted for righteousness. Not a transfer of the obedient track record of Jesus to you. The Bible does not say that.

The Bible specifically says FAITH is reckoned as righteousness and not only that but that this kind of faith HAS STEPS (Rom 4:12), Obeys (Heb 11:7-8), Works by love (Gal 5:6), establishes the law (Rom 3:31), purifies the heart (Act 15:9), is a work (1Th 1:3).

The faith that God reckons as righteousness is the continual ongoing abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Not some judicial transfer of the obedience of another to you.

Judicial transfer does not purify the heart. Abiding in Jesus Christ DOES purify the heart.


Is it any wonder that those who preach a forensic transfer also preach an ongoing defilement?

 

[Skinski7]

Totally incongruent.
Now asking me about serial killers.
Really Skinski, has your argument come to that?
I not going to argue against your false sense of righteousness.
Your accusations answer themselves.
(Like a return loop of judgmental accusations.)

You have no answer. To honestly address those questions reveals the foolishness of your position.

You simply cannot broach the subject of heart purity being intrinsically connected to salvation.

 

[Skinski7]

Me in red.

Colossians 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: Paul is speaking of ordinances here.

Context...

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Yes Jesus died for us when we were still sinners. That does not mean God "forgave you when you were still in rebellion." The Prodigal Son left the pig pen BEFORE he was restored and made alive again. What do you do with that parable? Simply ignore it?


It is credit to God and only God, not man, not sure if you are promoting man but it seems you are after beliefColossians 1:22 Forsaking rebellion is mans duty. If a husband forsakes his adultery and returns to his wife how on earth is that crediting the husband with someone other than doing what he should do? Forsaking rebellion to God does not impinge on God in any way. Yet it seems so many people are so afraid of implicating that man has to DO ANYTHING. Jesus said to be a DOER and not a hearer only.


New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—


So we can by this done issue receive the new life brought to us by the resurrected Christ from God himself just as he raised Christ from the dead. When we die WITH HIM which is something WE MUST DO.
Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. What does marriage involve? It is simply "trust" and "believe"? No, marriage is ONE FLESH in other words you must eat the flesh of Jesus and drink His blood, ie. submit wholeheartedly to Him. Submission is something WE DO and through doing that the righteousness of God is manifest THROUGH us. Thus the credit goes to God because God is the POWER SOURCE.

 

[zone]

Opposite? The wages of sin is death and ultimately being cast into the Lake of Fire. That is a "debt" that God FREELY REMITS to those who are forgiven. That debt is not paid by anyone. Instead of directly addressing the SPECIFIC of what I write you ignore it.
[/COLOR]

Colossians 2
Spiritual Fullness in Christ

6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forcesa of this world rather than on Christ.

9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the fleshb was put off when you were circumcised byc Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ.

He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

That debt is not paid by anyone.

were our debts just nailed to a Cross?
WHO WAS NAILED TO A CROSS?

WHY WAS HE?

 

[Skinski7]

Colossians 2
Spiritual Fullness in Christ

6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forcesa of this world rather than on Christ.

9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the fleshb was put off when you were circumcised byc Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made youd alive with Christ.

He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.e

Indeed a truth.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

God brings us from a state of being dead to a state of being alive. A state of being defiled to a state of being undefiled.

Yet what does modern theology teach in general? That one REMAINS inwardly defiled whereby "sin they will and sin they must" and the being made "alive with Christ" is purely POSITIONAL in application. Thus it is taught that Jesus Christ is a CLOAK for a state of ongoing defilement.

Hence the need of the false theology to teach the Romans wretch who is carnal and sold under sin to be saved. Likewise 1Joh 1:8 is ripped out of context to teach an "ongoing state of sinfulness" in a believer.

Thus heart purity is utterly denied and anyone who contends for purity of heart must be labelled a heretical false teacher.


Satan hates heart purity and knows very well that it is the pure in heart that will see God. Thus Satanic doctrine will always present a methodology of reconciliation which at its root repudiates heart purity.

If Satan can convince people they are saved whilst they remain inwardly defiled then he has basically shut the door to a genuine salvation experience taking place because the deceived individual's mind is set against such a thing.

 

[Skinski7]

The Pharisees were inwardly defiled and yet thought they were right with God. They sought their status of justification in the "works of the law" and in the "bloodline of Abraham."

The theologians of the present day have made the same basic error. Instead of viewing their status of justification in the "works of the law" or in a "bloodline" they see it in "trusting in a judicial provision."

Both the theology of the Pharisees and the theology of most modern professing Christianity leaves converts inwardly defiled.

There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[RickShafer]

"The Pharisees were inwardly defiled and yet thought they were right with God. "

Thanks,
Couldn't have said it better myself.
That's the outlook of the Pelagian folks.