Easter- timing thereof

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
0
#21
Your gonna have to pick one. It's either Eostre or Ishtar, since both are goddesses of pagan religions that never had contact with each other.

Also,Eostre is never mentioned anywhere prior to the writings of the venerable Bede. Not in the Roman sociological studies of the Celts, nor within the compositions of St. Patrick. So, it's entirely possible Eostre didn't exist.

As for Ishtar. You are right that it is the feminine version of Astarte whose supposed resurrection took place in ancient mythos. It happened at the vernal equinox, as did Horus and Mithras by the way. However, Ishtar, Astarte's feminine form, had her own celebration. It was midsummer, because Sumerian and Mesopotamian religion taught that the world was most fertile at midsummer. So, the comparison of Easter to Ishtar is faulty.

Let's also look at the fact that ONLY English-speaking countries, except Ireland until recently, call Resurrection Sunday, Easter. So, in the end, it is the fault of the English and American churches for continuing the name. In the end, Christians celebrate the anniversary of our Lord's resurrection.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#22
We are thinking along the same lines and coming to different conclusions. I am not throwing out all history because there is misinformation, I am doing my level best to collect from different sources and check where the source came from. I find that there are actually writings preserved by history.
I did not say the Nicene Council is not a good source. The problem, though, is that the Nicene Council is not a source. It is an event. It's like saying the Holocaust is a source. You can have sources ABOUT the Holocaust, but you can't just refer to the Holocaust as a source. You connect to that event through people, through writing, through photos, etc. With what happened at Nicea, it's even more difficult, because everyone that was there is dead, there were no photos, and only some writing has survived. In order to talk about what happened at Nicea, you need to refer to sources that have some actual link to the actual Nicean council.

In regards to what was the deciding factor in celebrating 'Easter' rather than 'Passover' at Nicea, a couple of things to note, with specific reference to Eusebius' Life of Constantine, 3:18-20.

1) The Romans spoke Latin and Greek, not English. They did not use the word Easter, instead they would have used Pascha (transliterated), or some variant thereof, the word used in the LXX for the Passover. Eusebius wrote his histories in Greek.
2) Eusebius may have had his biases, but if the only real reason Constantine had for moving the date was because he hated Jews, Eusebius would have written that. You only have to read his account of Nicea to see he wasn't backwards in criticising at least elements of the Jewish people. It's hard to believe he was trying to cover that up or anything.
3) Again, in Eusebius, there is no mention of any pagan holidays or anything like that, as being a reason for locking the date into a Sunday. The only reasons given are to avoid association with the Jewish observance of the Passover, to worship on the day the Lord rose, and to synchronise the time and manner of celebration.

So, with that in mind, if you have different sources that say something different, name them, and we can then discuss them. But we simply can't discuss the issue without reference to a specific historical record.
 
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
0
#23
What you say is true*

*If that is what is celebrated, but as soon as eggs, bunnies, easter come in pagan customs have then been mixed in.

I choose to celebrate Passover which is the time Messiah was Sacrificed

and

Firstfruits which is when the Messiah presented Himself to Yahweh after resurrecting.

Since both of the are commanded in Leviticus 23 and are prophetic shadow pictures of this work by Messiah I am within Yahweh's gates/system, the same can not be said for easter and christmas...
As for eggs and bunnies, neither Ishtar nor Eostre, since Eostre isn't known outside the venerable Bede, are connected to eggs or bunnies. Instead, Ishtar is mostly compared to stars and birds.

So, where did bunnies and eggs come from? America! That's right it was us. Secular Americans sought to celebrate the Holy week without acknowledging Christianity, so the spring holiday was invented in the 1700s. Now, chocolate and other sweet foods have been part of the Holy week festivities dating back to the 2nd century. It was a hold over of the Jewish New Year celebration. It was felt that since human history hinges on Christ, we should have sweets on the celebration of the Resurrection to celebrate the joys of the Lord.
 
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
0
#24
Oops I quoted something wrong. Astarte is the Babylonian name of Astaroth which was Sumerian.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#25
So, where did bunnies and eggs come from? America! That's right it was us. Secular Americans sought to celebrate the Holy week without acknowledging Christianity, so the spring holiday was invented in the 1700s.
technically the bunnies and eggs first appeared in the lutheran and reformed parts of germany...german immigrants then brought it to the united states...and in america this minor ethnic tradition caught on and soon became extremely popular...
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#26
Wow...

So I post reliable resources and they are called basically insufficent/believeing anything/not reliable....

But those same people like posts that support their position that is simply ones own words, no resource nothing.....

Very telling

"The term 'Easter' is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astarte, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven. The festival of Pasch [Passover and the Feast of Unleavens] was a continuation of the Jewish [that is, God's] feast....from this Pasch the pagan festival of 'Easter' was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt pagan festivals to Christianity." (W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr., Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, article: Easter, p.192)

Ish·tar : Mythology The chief Babylonian and Assyrian goddess, associated with love, fertility, and war, being the counterpart to the Phoenician Astarte. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000)

Tammuz: ancient nature deity worshiped in Babylonia. A god of agriculture and flocks, he personified the creative powers of spring. He was loved by the fertility goddess Ishtar, who, according to one legend, was so grief-stricken at his death that she contrived to enter the underworld to get him back. According to another legend, she killed him and later restored him to life. These legends and his festival, commemorating the yearly death and rebirth of vegetation, corresponded to the festivals of the Phoenician and Greek Adonis and of the Phrygian Attis. The Sumerian name of Tammuz was Dumuzi. In the Bible his disappearance is mourned by the women of Jerusalem (Ezek. 8.14).(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)

"The term Easter was derived from the Anglo-Saxon 'Eostre,' the name of the goddess of spring. In her honor sacrifices were offered at the time of the vernal equinox. By the 8th cent. the term came to be applied to the anniversary of Christ's resurrection." (International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, edited by Geoffrey Bromiley, Vol 2 of 4, p.6, article: Easter)

In primitive agricultural societies natural phenomena, such as rainfall, the fecundity of the earth, and the regeneration of nature were frequently personified. One of the most important pagan myths was the search of the earth goddess for her lost (or dead) child or lover (e.g., Isis and Osiris, Ishtar and Tammuz, Demeter and Persephone). This myth, symbolizing the birth, death, and reappearance of vegetation, when acted out in a sacred drama, was the fertility rite par excellence.(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)

Attis, in Phrygian religion, vegetation god. ...Like Adonis, Attis came to be worshiped as a god of vegetation, responsible for the death and rebirth of plant life. Each year at the beginning of spring his resurrection was celebrated in a festival. In Roman religion he became a powerful celestial deity. (The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)

"The name Easter comes from Eostre, an ancient Anglo-Saxon goddess, originally of the dawn. In pagan times an annual spring festival was held in her honor." (Compton's Encyclopedia and Fact-Index. Vol 7. Chicago: Compton's Learning Company, 1987, p.41)

"Easter. [Gk. pascha, from Heb. pesah] The Passover ..., and so translated in every passage except the KJV: 'intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people' [Acts 12:4]. In the earlier English versions Easter had been frequently used as the translation of pascha. At the last revision [1611 A.V.] Passover was substituted in all passages but this...The word Easter is of Saxon origin, the name is eastra, the goddess of spring in whose honor sacrifices were offered about Passover time each year. By the eighth century Anglo-Saxons had adopted the name to designate the celebration of Christ's resurrection." (New Unger's Bible Dictionary, article: "Easter")

"It is called Easter in the English, from the goddess Eostre, worshipped by the Saxons with peculiar ceremonies in the month of April." (Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol II, Edinburgh: A. Bell & C. Macfarquhar, 1768, p.464)

"The name of a feast, according to the Venerable Bede, comes from Eostre, A Teutonic goddess whose festival was celebrated in the spring. The name was given to the Christian festival in celebration of the resurrected Eostre, it was who, according to the legend, opened portals of Valhalla to recieve Baldur, called the white god because of his purity and also the sun god because his brow supplied light to mankind. It was Baldur who, after he had been murdered by Utgard Loki, the enemy of goodness and truth, spent half the year in Valhalla and the other half with the pale goddess of the lower regions. As the festival of Eostre was a celebration of the renewal of life in the spring it was easy to make it a celebration of the resurrection from the dead of Jesus. There is no doubt that the church in its early days adopted the old pagan customs and gave a Christian meaning to them." (George William Douglas, The American Book of Days, article: Easter)

"The English word Easter is derived from the names 'Eostre' - 'Eastre' - 'Astarte' or 'Ashtaroth'. Astarte was introduced into the British Isles by the Druids and is just another name for Beltis or Ishtar of the Chaldeans and Babylonians. The book of Judges records that 'the children of Israel did evil ...in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, ...and forsook the LORD, and served not Him.' Easter is just another name for Ashteroth 'The Queen of Heaven.' Easter was not considered a 'Christian' festival until the fourth century. Early Christians celebrated Passover on the 14th day of the first month and a study of the dates on which Easter is celebrated will reveal that the celebration of Easter is not observed in accordance with the prescribed time for the observance of Passover. After much debate, the Nicaean council of 325 A.D. decreed that 'Easter' should be celebrated on the first Sunday after the vernal equinox. Why was so much debate necessary if 'Easter' was a tradition passed down from the Apostles? The answer is that it was not an Apostolic institution, but, an invention of man! They had to make up some rules. History records that spring festivals in honor of the pagan fertility goddesses and the events associated with them were celebrated at the same time as 'Easter'. In the year 399 A.D. the Theodosian Code attempted to remove the pagan connotation from those events and banned their observance. The pagan festival of Easter originated as the worship of the sun goddess, the Babylonian Queen of Heaven who was later worshipped under many names including Ishtar, Cybele, Idaea Mater (the Great Mother), or Astarte for whom the celebration of Easter is named. Easter is not another name for the Feast of Passover and is not celebrated at the Biblically prescribed time for Passover. This pagan festival was supposedly 'Christianized' several hundred years after Christ." (Richard Rives, Too Long in the Sun)
 
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
0
#27
Wow...

So I post reliable resources and they are called basically insufficent/believeing anything/not reliable....

But those same people like posts that support their position that is simply ones own words, no resource nothing.....

Very telling

"The term 'Easter' is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astarte, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven. The festival of Pasch [Passover and the Feast of Unleavens] was a continuation of the Jewish [that is, God's] feast....from this Pasch the pagan festival of 'Easter' was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt pagan festivals to Christianity." (W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr., Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, article: Easter, p.192)

Ish·tar : Mythology The chief Babylonian and Assyrian goddess, associated with love, fertility, and war, being the counterpart to the Phoenician Astarte. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000)

Tammuz: ancient nature deity worshiped in Babylonia. A god of agriculture and flocks, he personified the creative powers of spring. He was loved by the fertility goddess Ishtar, who, according to one legend, was so grief-stricken at his death that she contrived to enter the underworld to get him back. According to another legend, she killed him and later restored him to life. These legends and his festival, commemorating the yearly death and rebirth of vegetation, corresponded to the festivals of the Phoenician and Greek Adonis and of the Phrygian Attis. The Sumerian name of Tammuz was Dumuzi. In the Bible his disappearance is mourned by the women of Jerusalem (Ezek. 8.14).(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)

"The term Easter was derived from the Anglo-Saxon 'Eostre,' the name of the goddess of spring. In her honor sacrifices were offered at the time of the vernal equinox. By the 8th cent. the term came to be applied to the anniversary of Christ's resurrection." (International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, edited by Geoffrey Bromiley, Vol 2 of 4, p.6, article: Easter)

In primitive agricultural societies natural phenomena, such as rainfall, the fecundity of the earth, and the regeneration of nature were frequently personified. One of the most important pagan myths was the search of the earth goddess for her lost (or dead) child or lover (e.g., Isis and Osiris, Ishtar and Tammuz, Demeter and Persephone). This myth, symbolizing the birth, death, and reappearance of vegetation, when acted out in a sacred drama, was the fertility rite par excellence.(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)

Attis, in Phrygian religion, vegetation god. ...Like Adonis, Attis came to be worshiped as a god of vegetation, responsible for the death and rebirth of plant life. Each year at the beginning of spring his resurrection was celebrated in a festival. In Roman religion he became a powerful celestial deity. (The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)

"The name Easter comes from Eostre, an ancient Anglo-Saxon goddess, originally of the dawn. In pagan times an annual spring festival was held in her honor." (Compton's Encyclopedia and Fact-Index. Vol 7. Chicago: Compton's Learning Company, 1987, p.41)

"Easter. [Gk. pascha, from Heb. pesah] The Passover ..., and so translated in every passage except the KJV: 'intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people' [Acts 12:4]. In the earlier English versions Easter had been frequently used as the translation of pascha. At the last revision [1611 A.V.] Passover was substituted in all passages but this...The word Easter is of Saxon origin, the name is eastra, the goddess of spring in whose honor sacrifices were offered about Passover time each year. By the eighth century Anglo-Saxons had adopted the name to designate the celebration of Christ's resurrection." (New Unger's Bible Dictionary, article: "Easter")

"It is called Easter in the English, from the goddess Eostre, worshipped by the Saxons with peculiar ceremonies in the month of April." (Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol II, Edinburgh: A. Bell & C. Macfarquhar, 1768, p.464)

"The name of a feast, according to the Venerable Bede, comes from Eostre, A Teutonic goddess whose festival was celebrated in the spring. The name was given to the Christian festival in celebration of the resurrected Eostre, it was who, according to the legend, opened portals of Valhalla to recieve Baldur, called the white god because of his purity and also the sun god because his brow supplied light to mankind. It was Baldur who, after he had been murdered by Utgard Loki, the enemy of goodness and truth, spent half the year in Valhalla and the other half with the pale goddess of the lower regions. As the festival of Eostre was a celebration of the renewal of life in the spring it was easy to make it a celebration of the resurrection from the dead of Jesus. There is no doubt that the church in its early days adopted the old pagan customs and gave a Christian meaning to them." (George William Douglas, The American Book of Days, article: Easter)

"The English word Easter is derived from the names 'Eostre' - 'Eastre' - 'Astarte' or 'Ashtaroth'. Astarte was introduced into the British Isles by the Druids and is just another name for Beltis or Ishtar of the Chaldeans and Babylonians. The book of Judges records that 'the children of Israel did evil ...in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, ...and forsook the LORD, and served not Him.' Easter is just another name for Ashteroth 'The Queen of Heaven.' Easter was not considered a 'Christian' festival until the fourth century. Early Christians celebrated Passover on the 14th day of the first month and a study of the dates on which Easter is celebrated will reveal that the celebration of Easter is not observed in accordance with the prescribed time for the observance of Passover. After much debate, the Nicaean council of 325 A.D. decreed that 'Easter' should be celebrated on the first Sunday after the vernal equinox. Why was so much debate necessary if 'Easter' was a tradition passed down from the Apostles? The answer is that it was not an Apostolic institution, but, an invention of man! They had to make up some rules. History records that spring festivals in honor of the pagan fertility goddesses and the events associated with them were celebrated at the same time as 'Easter'. In the year 399 A.D. the Theodosian Code attempted to remove the pagan connotation from those events and banned their observance. The pagan festival of Easter originated as the worship of the sun goddess, the Babylonian Queen of Heaven who was later worshipped under many names including Ishtar, Cybele, Idaea Mater (the Great Mother), or Astarte for whom the celebration of Easter is named. Easter is not another name for the Feast of Passover and is not celebrated at the Biblically prescribed time for Passover. This pagan festival was supposedly 'Christianized' several hundred years after Christ." (Richard Rives, Too Long in the Sun)
You missed my overall point. It is either pagan because of Ishtar or Eostre. You cannot claim both, since neither culture effected the other.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#28
You missed my overall point. It is either pagan because of Ishtar or Eostre. You cannot claim both, since neither culture effected the other.
same form of worship different name

"The term 'Easter' is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astarte, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven. The festival of Pasch [Passover and the Feast of Unleavens] was a continuation of the Jewish [that is, God's] feast....from this Pasch the pagan festival of 'Easter' was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt pagan festivals to Christianity." (W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr., Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, article: Easter, p.192)

Ish·tar : Mythology The chief Babylonian and Assyrian goddess, associated with love, fertility, and war, being the counterpart to the Phoenician Astarte. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000)

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary says "Easter" is of Astarte...

American Heritage® Dictionary says Ishtar is the counterpart to the Phoenician Astarte...
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#29
As for eggs and bunnies, neither Ishtar nor Eostre, since Eostre isn't known outside the venerable Bede, are connected to eggs or bunnies. Instead, Ishtar is mostly compared to stars and birds.

So, where did bunnies and eggs come from? America! That's right it was us. Secular Americans sought to celebrate the Holy week without acknowledging Christianity, so the spring holiday was invented in the 1700s. Now, chocolate and other sweet foods have been part of the Holy week festivities dating back to the 2nd century. It was a hold over of the Jewish New Year celebration. It was felt that since human history hinges on Christ, we should have sweets on the celebration of the Resurrection to celebrate the joys of the Lord.
Gee, now you made me hungereeee.
 
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
0
#30
same form of worship different name

"The term 'Easter' is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astarte, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven. The festival of Pasch [Passover and the Feast of Unleavens] was a continuation of the Jewish [that is, God's] feast....from this Pasch the pagan festival of 'Easter' was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt pagan festivals to Christianity." (W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr., Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, article: Easter, p.192)

Ish·tar : Mythology The chief Babylonian and Assyrian goddess, associated with love, fertility, and war, being the counterpart to the Phoenician Astarte. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000)

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary says "Easter" is of Astarte...

American Heritage® Dictionary says Ishtar is the counterpart to the Phoenician Astarte...
I can see this line of thought, but again it is only English-speaking countries that call it Easter. All others call it Pascha or Resurrection Sunday. So, the flaw stands heavily. As I said, in the end, we celebrate the anniversary of our Lord's resurrection.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#31
Wow...

So I post reliable resources and they are called basically insufficent/believeing anything/not reliable....

But those same people like posts that support their position that is simply ones own words, no resource nothing.....

Very telling

"The term 'Easter' is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astarte, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven. The festival of Pasch [Passover and the Feast of Unleavens] was a continuation of the Jewish [that is, God's] feast....from this Pasch the pagan festival of 'Easter' was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt pagan festivals to Christianity." (W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr., Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, article: Easter, p.192)

Ish·tar : Mythology The chief Babylonian and Assyrian goddess, associated with love, fertility, and war, being the counterpart to the Phoenician Astarte. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000)

Tammuz: ancient nature deity worshiped in Babylonia. A god of agriculture and flocks, he personified the creative powers of spring. He was loved by the fertility goddess Ishtar, who, according to one legend, was so grief-stricken at his death that she contrived to enter the underworld to get him back. According to another legend, she killed him and later restored him to life. These legends and his festival, commemorating the yearly death and rebirth of vegetation, corresponded to the festivals of the Phoenician and Greek Adonis and of the Phrygian Attis. The Sumerian name of Tammuz was Dumuzi. In the Bible his disappearance is mourned by the women of Jerusalem (Ezek. 8.14).(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)

"The term Easter was derived from the Anglo-Saxon 'Eostre,' the name of the goddess of spring. In her honor sacrifices were offered at the time of the vernal equinox. By the 8th cent. the term came to be applied to the anniversary of Christ's resurrection." (International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, edited by Geoffrey Bromiley, Vol 2 of 4, p.6, article: Easter)

In primitive agricultural societies natural phenomena, such as rainfall, the fecundity of the earth, and the regeneration of nature were frequently personified. One of the most important pagan myths was the search of the earth goddess for her lost (or dead) child or lover (e.g., Isis and Osiris, Ishtar and Tammuz, Demeter and Persephone). This myth, symbolizing the birth, death, and reappearance of vegetation, when acted out in a sacred drama, was the fertility rite par excellence.(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)

Attis, in Phrygian religion, vegetation god. ...Like Adonis, Attis came to be worshiped as a god of vegetation, responsible for the death and rebirth of plant life. Each year at the beginning of spring his resurrection was celebrated in a festival. In Roman religion he became a powerful celestial deity. (The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)

"The name Easter comes from Eostre, an ancient Anglo-Saxon goddess, originally of the dawn. In pagan times an annual spring festival was held in her honor." (Compton's Encyclopedia and Fact-Index. Vol 7. Chicago: Compton's Learning Company, 1987, p.41)

"Easter. [Gk. pascha, from Heb. pesah] The Passover ..., and so translated in every passage except the KJV: 'intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people' [Acts 12:4]. In the earlier English versions Easter had been frequently used as the translation of pascha. At the last revision [1611 A.V.] Passover was substituted in all passages but this...The word Easter is of Saxon origin, the name is eastra, the goddess of spring in whose honor sacrifices were offered about Passover time each year. By the eighth century Anglo-Saxons had adopted the name to designate the celebration of Christ's resurrection." (New Unger's Bible Dictionary, article: "Easter")

"It is called Easter in the English, from the goddess Eostre, worshipped by the Saxons with peculiar ceremonies in the month of April." (Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol II, Edinburgh: A. Bell & C. Macfarquhar, 1768, p.464)

"The name of a feast, according to the Venerable Bede, comes from Eostre, A Teutonic goddess whose festival was celebrated in the spring. The name was given to the Christian festival in celebration of the resurrected Eostre, it was who, according to the legend, opened portals of Valhalla to recieve Baldur, called the white god because of his purity and also the sun god because his brow supplied light to mankind. It was Baldur who, after he had been murdered by Utgard Loki, the enemy of goodness and truth, spent half the year in Valhalla and the other half with the pale goddess of the lower regions. As the festival of Eostre was a celebration of the renewal of life in the spring it was easy to make it a celebration of the resurrection from the dead of Jesus. There is no doubt that the church in its early days adopted the old pagan customs and gave a Christian meaning to them." (George William Douglas, The American Book of Days, article: Easter)

"The English word Easter is derived from the names 'Eostre' - 'Eastre' - 'Astarte' or 'Ashtaroth'. Astarte was introduced into the British Isles by the Druids and is just another name for Beltis or Ishtar of the Chaldeans and Babylonians. The book of Judges records that 'the children of Israel did evil ...in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, ...and forsook the LORD, and served not Him.' Easter is just another name for Ashteroth 'The Queen of Heaven.' Easter was not considered a 'Christian' festival until the fourth century. Early Christians celebrated Passover on the 14th day of the first month and a study of the dates on which Easter is celebrated will reveal that the celebration of Easter is not observed in accordance with the prescribed time for the observance of Passover. After much debate, the Nicaean council of 325 A.D. decreed that 'Easter' should be celebrated on the first Sunday after the vernal equinox. Why was so much debate necessary if 'Easter' was a tradition passed down from the Apostles? The answer is that it was not an Apostolic institution, but, an invention of man! They had to make up some rules. History records that spring festivals in honor of the pagan fertility goddesses and the events associated with them were celebrated at the same time as 'Easter'. In the year 399 A.D. the Theodosian Code attempted to remove the pagan connotation from those events and banned their observance. The pagan festival of Easter originated as the worship of the sun goddess, the Babylonian Queen of Heaven who was later worshipped under many names including Ishtar, Cybele, Idaea Mater (the Great Mother), or Astarte for whom the celebration of Easter is named. Easter is not another name for the Feast of Passover and is not celebrated at the Biblically prescribed time for Passover. This pagan festival was supposedly 'Christianized' several hundred years after Christ." (Richard Rives, Too Long in the Sun)
i am just going to repost my response from the other thread...


this is another dishonest debate tactic...throwing everything you can cut and paste into the argument in a desperate attempt to find something that sticks...

the truth of the matter is that you can post quotations from reference books all day long...and i can keep replying to them all day long...and the fact will remain that they are -still- secondary sources or less...

either post -primary sources- as would be required for any credible historical work...or admit that you are absolutely unable to demonstrate that there is any historical basis for your claims...
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#32
same form of worship different name

"The term 'Easter' is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astarte, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven. The festival of Pasch [Passover and the Feast of Unleavens] was a continuation of the Jewish [that is, God's] feast....from this Pasch the pagan festival of 'Easter' was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt pagan festivals to Christianity." (W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr., Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, article: Easter, p.192)

Ish·tar : Mythology The chief Babylonian and Assyrian goddess, associated with love, fertility, and war, being the counterpart to the Phoenician Astarte. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000)

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary says "Easter" is of Astarte...

American Heritage® Dictionary says Ishtar is the counterpart to the Phoenician Astarte...
the problem with this line of reasoning is that vine's is simply -wrong-...in fact the entire quotation is rife with errors...

'easter' is not related to 'astarte' because they don't even mean the same thing in their respective languages...you say it is the same form of worship with different names...but you have it backwards...they are actually completely -different- forms of worship with similar sounding but unrelated names...

and the 'queen of heaven' was actually anath...a separate deity from astarte...this is known from archaeology because after the jews told jeremiah they would worship the queen of heaven they built a temple on elephantine island in egypt where they worshipped yahweh and anath as a deity and consort pair...

finally there is actually very little distinction between easter and the early christian pascha...which by the way was -not- identical to the jewish passover... in the early church there was a group that celebrated christ's death and resurrection all on the day of the jewish passover...and there was another group that celebrated christ's resurrection on the first sunday afterwards...in an effort to have their celebration on the same day of the week as when it actually happened...so the disagreement was only one of timing... in fact this second group actually called their celebration 'pascha' as well...it only came to be called 'easter' centuries later...and even then only by anglo-saxon christians...other christians continue to call it 'pascha' or some variant to this day...
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#33
Wow...

So I post reliable resources and they are called basically insufficent/believeing anything/not reliable....
They're either not reliable, or not entirely relevant to the question at hand. I will go through them individually, so there can be no doubt as to what the problems are.

But those same people like posts that support their position that is simply ones own words, no resource nothing.....
It's hard to provide sources for something that doesn't exist. It's not my job to provide sources that say something did not happen. It's your job to provide sources saying they did.

"The term 'Easter' is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astarte, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven. The festival of Pasch [Passover and the Feast of Unleavens] was a continuation of the Jewish [that is, God's] feast....from this Pasch the pagan festival of 'Easter' was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt pagan festivals to Christianity." (W.E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr., Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, article: Easter, p.192)
I've already discussed this in great detail with you, But this source is unreliable. The word Easter has nothing to do with Astarte - it is of German origin (English and German are the only two languages using something approximating Easter - most other languages refer to Easter using a word derived from the Hebrew for passover). Astarte is a Greek word that bears no etymological link to Easter or Eostre. Unger et al also provide no sources for their information, and it is impossible to verify their claims.

Ish·tar : Mythology The chief Babylonian and Assyrian goddess, associated with love, fertility, and war, being the counterpart to the Phoenician Astarte. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000)
This source is mostly accurate (although the Phoenician would have been something more along the lines of Ashtert - the Phoenician name would have more in common with the Hebrew than the Greek, would have used a very different alphabet). But it's not really relevant to the question of the celebration, or even naming, of Easter.

Tammuz: ancient nature deity worshiped in Babylonia. A god of agriculture and flocks, he personified the creative powers of spring. He was loved by the fertility goddess Ishtar, who, according to one legend, was so grief-stricken at his death that she contrived to enter the underworld to get him back. According to another legend, she killed him and later restored him to life. These legends and his festival, commemorating the yearly death and rebirth of vegetation, corresponded to the festivals of the Phoenician and Greek Adonis and of the Phrygian Attis. The Sumerian name of Tammuz was Dumuzi. In the Bible his disappearance is mourned by the women of Jerusalem (Ezek. 8.14).(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)
Mostly accurate, although, again, there's nothing connecting any of this to to the celebration of Easter - certainly, the celebration of Adonia is non specific and did not fall on a particular day, while the celebration certainly does not correspond to the celebration of Tammuz, which was not celebrated at a specific time, and could fall anywhere between March and July, depending on where you lived (all I could find on this was in Encylopaedia Britannica, so unless you have another source, it'll have to do). Besides that, most of the writing regarding the Adonis festival (particularly the resurrection part) is quite late, post-Christianity and almost certainly post Easter. "The Adonis images laid out as in death, and the seed garden that never bear fruit, honour him once each year. After the Adonia, he will not make an appearance until the next celebration of the festival (i.e. his death is commemorated each year; only late sources mention a resurrection)." (p. 164, Dillon, M, 'Girls and Women in Classical Greek Religion', 2002, Routledge Press, includes further footnotes)

"The term Easter was derived from the Anglo-Saxon 'Eostre,' the name of the goddess of spring. In her honor sacrifices were offered at the time of the vernal equinox. By the 8th cent. the term came to be applied to the anniversary of Christ's resurrection." (International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, edited by Geoffrey Bromiley, Vol 2 of 4, p.6, article: Easter)
Again, the source repeats claims made elsewhere, with no sourcing. There is NO evidence in ANY source from the relevant time period (around 8th century AD) of sacrifices being made to a goddess named Eostre. Bede is the only place this goddess is mentioned, and it is not clear that he is actually familiar with any contemporary worship of her. The ISBD is most likely wrong on this subject, unless they have access to information that no one else does, and conveniently neglect to cite it

In primitive agricultural societies natural phenomena, such as rainfall, the fecundity of the earth, and the regeneration of nature were frequently personified. One of the most important pagan myths was the search of the earth goddess for her lost (or dead) child or lover (e.g., Isis and Osiris, Ishtar and Tammuz, Demeter and Persephone). This myth, symbolizing the birth, death, and reappearance of vegetation, when acted out in a sacred drama, was the fertility rite par excellence.(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)
Don't see how this is relevant, because this is very different to the celebration of Easter.

Attis, in Phrygian religion, vegetation god. ...Like Adonis, Attis came to be worshiped as a god of vegetation, responsible for the death and rebirth of plant life. Each year at the beginning of spring his resurrection was celebrated in a festival. In Roman religion he became a powerful celestial deity. (The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001)
Again, don't see how this is relevant. How specifically is the celebration of the Attis festival (which, according to the incredibly unreliable and Christian mythicist Frazer in 'The Golden Bough', occurred in late March anyway.) like the celebration of Easter. Simply answering that they both occur in spring is not good enough - I live in the southern Hemisphere, and celebrate the death and resurrection of the Lord in autumn.

"The name Easter comes from Eostre, an ancient Anglo-Saxon goddess, originally of the dawn. In pagan times an annual spring festival was held in her honor." (Compton's Encyclopedia and Fact-Index. Vol 7. Chicago: Compton's Learning Company, 1987, p.41)
Compton's is a school encyclopedia for children. They are clearly repeating what Bede writes in his 'De ratione temporum', but it is not clear from that source who this goddess was, what the festivals entailed, whether the month was named after the goddess or the goddess, such as she was, flowed from the name for the month, or even if these festivals were still being celebrated in the 8th century, which is quite a while after Christianity stablised anyway.

"Easter. [Gk. pascha, from Heb. pesah] The Passover ..., and so translated in every passage except the KJV: 'intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people' [Acts 12:4]. In the earlier English versions Easter had been frequently used as the translation of pascha. At the last revision [1611 A.V.] Passover was substituted in all passages but this...The word Easter is of Saxon origin, the name is eastra, the goddess of spring in whose honor sacrifices were offered about Passover time each year. By the eighth century Anglo-Saxons had adopted the name to designate the celebration of Christ's resurrection." (New Unger's Bible Dictionary, article: "Easter")
We've already shown Unger is unreliable, but he is correct the word Easter is of Saxon (Germanic) origin, although he seems to have a different name for the goddess, and again refers to the sacrifices thing for which there is no evidence. The eight century bit is correct, as corroborated by Bede, which is clearly where Unger is getting at least some of his information from, even though he hasn't cited it (or perhaps he did, but you didn't provide the citation)

"It is called Easter in the English, from the goddess Eostre, worshipped by the Saxons with peculiar ceremonies in the month of April." (Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol II, Edinburgh: A. Bell & C. Macfarquhar, 1768, p.464)
What is peculiar about the ceremonies? In any case, nothing here that hasn't been refuted elsewhere, though I'm interested to read that you referenced an eighteenth century Encyclopedia...

"The name of a feast, according to the Venerable Bede, comes from Eostre, A Teutonic goddess whose festival was celebrated in the spring. The name was given to the Christian festival in celebration of the resurrected Eostre, it was who, according to the legend, opened portals of Valhalla to recieve Baldur, called the white god because of his purity and also the sun god because his brow supplied light to mankind. It was Baldur who, after he had been murdered by Utgard Loki, the enemy of goodness and truth, spent half the year in Valhalla and the other half with the pale goddess of the lower regions. As the festival of Eostre was a celebration of the renewal of life in the spring it was easy to make it a celebration of the resurrection from the dead of Jesus. There is no doubt that the church in its early days adopted the old pagan customs and gave a Christian meaning to them." (George William Douglas, The American Book of Days, article: Easter)
This is self evidently wrong - the Germanic gods worshipped at the time of Bede were not the same as the Norse Gods (although some carried over, under different names). Loki simply doesn't feature in Germanic writings, for instance. Eostre does not appear in the Norse pantheon. This article is clearly entirely erroneous, especially as it doesn't refer to any earlier writings.

"The English word Easter is derived from the names 'Eostre' - 'Eastre' - 'Astarte' or 'Ashtaroth'. ... (Richard Rives, Too Long in the Sun)
I shan't bother referring to the rest of this quote, because it's essentially a travesty of history. There is no relation between the words Astarte, Ashtaroth and Easter (the name), simply because, if so, the Greek word for Easter would presumably also be related to Astarte (the Greek work for Ashtaroth), not Pascha (related to the Passover). All languages except English and German use a word for 'Easter' that is derived from the Hebrew for Passover. There is no linguistic link to Astarte (Greek), Ashtaroth (transliterated Phoenician), and Eostre (West Germanic). The cultures were distinct from each other, as are their languages. The whole basis of Rives post is completely questionable.

If you have any better sources, or have the footnotes to the sources you quoted, please, let's keep going.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#34
Given that all of us in this thread were wanting to keep the discussion focused on sources, I'm a little surprised the above exchange didn't attract further responses.