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Really ? can I get a quote from Macarthur or the like stating that what they believe is the following ? : "'lordship salvation' is actually a very specific term for a legalistic mutation of calvinism... in practice it means that your works have to measure up to someone's arbitrary standard of righteousness in order for you to be considered one of those that God has predestined"...
doesnt have to be those words of course...( those are your words ) but something along those lines.
Thanks
doesnt have to be those words of course...( those are your words ) but something along those lines.
Thanks
Both are errors. The former is the error of practically making salvation conditioned on the works of the sinner, looking to the law or self for his right standing with God. The latter is the error of holding that a saved sinner has experienced no change of heart. That salvation is not necessarily reflected in the life of the saved.
At the core of the issue is what happens at salvation. On the Lordship salvation side the emphasis is on God calling and choosing and regenerating, therefore the believer will be changed. On the free grace side is the fact that we believe in Jesus for eternal life. The free grace side does not technically believe there has not been a change, it just asks the question? Is the evidence of this change necessary in order for faith to be real? If I ask myself whether I believe in Jesus, is it valid to ask if I've submitted my life to Jesus in every aspect? My money, time, effort, sexuality? While of course belief in Jesus will affect my life, is the submission of my life the proof that I've believed. In other words, does the end prove the beginning?
Works are the inevitable consequence of faith = Not necessarily true
Works are the natural consequence of faith = Possibly true
Works should be the consequence of faith = True
Works grow one's faith = Biblical, James 2
Works are the inevitable consequence of faith = Not necessarily true
Works are the natural consequence of faith = Possibly true
Works should be the consequence of faith = True
Works grow one's faith = Biblical, James 2
Rachel, I often agree with many of your posts, but not this mention of John MacArthur. (Just incase I have the wrong pastor, this is him --> Grace to You )
I've listened to many of his sermons over the years and have never heard him teach a works based gospel message. It's pretty common today for sound teachers to be accused of teaching a different gospel. The enemy likes to go after great men of God. That's why we need to check what these pastors teach. Most of them also have a statement of faith on their church websites.
Salvation is the most important one to get right. As far as non salvational views/differences, like eschatology, etc, some might not agree with his view on that but it plays no part in one's salvation.
John Macarthur: "Furthermore, if a person is genuinely saved, his life will change for the better (2 Corinthians 5:17). He is saved "for good works" (Ephesians 2:10), and there is no way he can fail to bring forth at least some of the fruit that characterizes the redeemed (cf. Matthew 7:17). His desires are transformed; he begins to hate sin and love righteousness"
I've listened to many of his sermons over the years and have never heard him teach a works based gospel message. It's pretty common today for sound teachers to be accused of teaching a different gospel. The enemy likes to go after great men of God. That's why we need to check what these pastors teach. Most of them also have a statement of faith on their church websites.
Salvation is the most important one to get right. As far as non salvational views/differences, like eschatology, etc, some might not agree with his view on that but it plays no part in one's salvation.
John Macarthur: "Furthermore, if a person is genuinely saved, his life will change for the better (2 Corinthians 5:17). He is saved "for good works" (Ephesians 2:10), and there is no way he can fail to bring forth at least some of the fruit that characterizes the redeemed (cf. Matthew 7:17). His desires are transformed; he begins to hate sin and love righteousness"
Ya know what I always hear about Lordship salvation? Sinners can't save themselves with works. While that statement is true in itself, what does that have to do with the church? Christians aren't sinners!
1 John 3:1-3 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Many "easy believists" also believe they're still sinners. (practitioners).
2 Corinthians 5:17 (NASB) [SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature [footnote: there is a new creation]; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
How can anyone stay saved when instead of confessing being a new creation in Christ, they tell everyone they're still sinners?
Before anyone blows a gasket, a sinner is someone that continues practicing sin without change. The New man in Jesus doesn't want to sin anymore, but his flesh continually desires to do so, thus the struggle with sin. I will NEVER tell the world nor the church that I still practice sin like I always did as a sinner..... because the 'inner man' refuses to do it.
Sonship already belongs to those abiding in Christ.... Stake your claim & live by the works of faith!!
Habakkuk 2:4 (KJV) [SUP]4 [/SUP]Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.[HR][/HR]Romans 1:17 (KJV) [SUP]17 [/SUP]For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
[HR][/HR]Hebrews 10:38 (KJV) [SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
The Bible teaches plainly in James that faith without works is dead.
1 John 3:1-3 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Many "easy believists" also believe they're still sinners. (practitioners).
2 Corinthians 5:17 (NASB) [SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature [footnote: there is a new creation]; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
How can anyone stay saved when instead of confessing being a new creation in Christ, they tell everyone they're still sinners?
Before anyone blows a gasket, a sinner is someone that continues practicing sin without change. The New man in Jesus doesn't want to sin anymore, but his flesh continually desires to do so, thus the struggle with sin. I will NEVER tell the world nor the church that I still practice sin like I always did as a sinner..... because the 'inner man' refuses to do it.
Sonship already belongs to those abiding in Christ.... Stake your claim & live by the works of faith!!
Habakkuk 2:4 (KJV) [SUP]4 [/SUP]Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.[HR][/HR]Romans 1:17 (KJV) [SUP]17 [/SUP]For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
[HR][/HR]Hebrews 10:38 (KJV) [SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
The Bible teaches plainly in James that faith without works is dead.
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J
Sorry, but could not disagree more. There is no error in obedience! Actually making Christ your Lord and being obedient to Him, as befits claiming He is your Lord, has nothing to do with works salvation. Walking in the light of the Spirit as is commanded of any believer, dismissing a requirement for sanctification and righteousness, growth, will damn anybody who believes God is mocked. The Bible clearly teaches this, and just the word "Lord" means your Master, who you're obligated to obey. As I put it in another thread, a butler to an English lord who believes he can just accept room and board, then nothing else, will be fired by his lord, probably the first day on the job, and we can all thank our Lord He's more long suffering of the disobedient. But not forever!
People, you had better put away lip service faith and cease dismissing very clear teaching and warnings in the Bible:
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Galatians 5:16-23 This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Revelation 3:14-16 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
People, you had better put away lip service faith and cease dismissing very clear teaching and warnings in the Bible:
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Galatians 5:16-23 This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Revelation 3:14-16 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Yes, we disagree because your definition of obedience is hardly consequential. You must be obedient 100% just as perfectly obedient as Jesus was, to reach the standard of God (not of men)? Are you? If not, how are you reconciled to God? How are you righteous before God?Where do you look for your right standing with God? What does it mean to obey the gospel and give up all own efforts to establish ones own righteousness?
J
Nobody said word one about perfection, and I don't do this argument thing with people who put words in others' mouth to stir a pot. I defined absolutely nothing. I even provided you some very clear, unambiguous verses going directly to obedience. Try reading what the Bible defines, what it actually teaches. People who choose to throw out chunks of it, this is a personal problem some of us have pointed out. As for me, end of discussion, then whatever floats your boat, hoping it doesn't have a gash in the hull.
You replied so fast that you did not get my entire edited reply in your quotes...but here it is:
You did not type the word perfection. But relying on your own obedience must consequently mean just that. That was the point. Or how is it that you are obedient only in part and not in all? Are we to take James 2:10 lightheartedly? Well, yes, a christian is obedient to the gospel first off, and then as fruit of that further obedience follows in his walk of life. But never at any time should a christian begin to trust in his own self, in his own obedience...his only true and lasting hope and trust is to look to Jesus and His obedience in our stead. Otherwise self-centeredness and self righteousness is at great risk to creep in and eventually switch focus from Christ to ones own efforts.
You did not type the word perfection. But relying on your own obedience must consequently mean just that. That was the point. Or how is it that you are obedient only in part and not in all? Are we to take James 2:10 lightheartedly? Well, yes, a christian is obedient to the gospel first off, and then as fruit of that further obedience follows in his walk of life. But never at any time should a christian begin to trust in his own self, in his own obedience...his only true and lasting hope and trust is to look to Jesus and His obedience in our stead. Otherwise self-centeredness and self righteousness is at great risk to creep in and eventually switch focus from Christ to ones own efforts.