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VW knows all this Fes....none of this is new to him.
btw:
i'm jewish on my mother's side.
WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?
LOL! (makes me a "self-hater" like my friend Doc i guess)
and while we're at it, let's tear some pages out of our bibles....or maybe just stop studying altogether: who needs all that head knowledge?
1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
John 8
You Are of Your Father the Devil
39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
btw:
i'm jewish on my mother's side.
WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?
LOL! (makes me a "self-hater" like my friend Doc i guess)and while we're at it, let's tear some pages out of our bibles....or maybe just stop studying altogether: who needs all that head knowledge?
1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
John 8
You Are of Your Father the Devil
39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
Of course it is, but that does not mean that the prophecies that God gave to Israel, the nation, are nul and void, which is a small part of what Zone is saying. Frankly, I can hardly read her posts any more, as they are nothing but Jew bashing. And blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
God talks to His people, unless they stop their ears to not hear Him, then He sends prophets to His people to try to awaken them. Now He could just make them hear, but then He would not be our God, but some other god.
Believing in a literal return of Jesus to rule the world for a thousand years is not dispensationalism, it is believe the Spirit and His teaching from the word. Yeah, those guys messed up a lot back then, but that does not make God a liar.
I guess we will see in the end, oh, but wait, there is no end, because Jesus is not coming back to rule the world, as He deserves to do, and as His Father has commanded Him to do, until every enemy has been made a footstool under His feet. That includes every single government of the world, who are all His enemies.
Anyway, if you believe as Zone does, then you are deceived also.
God talks to His people, unless they stop their ears to not hear Him, then He sends prophets to His people to try to awaken them. Now He could just make them hear, but then He would not be our God, but some other god.
Believing in a literal return of Jesus to rule the world for a thousand years is not dispensationalism, it is believe the Spirit and His teaching from the word. Yeah, those guys messed up a lot back then, but that does not make God a liar.
I guess we will see in the end, oh, but wait, there is no end, because Jesus is not coming back to rule the world, as He deserves to do, and as His Father has commanded Him to do, until every enemy has been made a footstool under His feet. That includes every single government of the world, who are all His enemies.
Anyway, if you believe as Zone does, then you are deceived also.
VW knows all this Fes....none of this is new to him.
btw:
i'm jewish on my mother's side.
WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? LOL! (makes me a "self-hater" like my friend Doc i guess)
and while we're at it, let's tear some pages out of our bibles....or maybe just stop studying altogether: who needs all that head knowledge?
1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
John 8
You Are of Your Father the Devil
39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
btw:
i'm jewish on my mother's side.
WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?
LOL! (makes me a "self-hater" like my friend Doc i guess)and while we're at it, let's tear some pages out of our bibles....or maybe just stop studying altogether: who needs all that head knowledge?
1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
John 8
You Are of Your Father the Devil
39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
Just to set the record straight, Jesus died because of you and me and Unclefester and every other person to ever live in the world, and no one, not man or beast or spirit or devil took His life away from Him, because He laid it down for us on His own initiative. Not one of us loved Him before He first loved us.
H
The thing is Mega many churches and individuals of them [or not of] do not teach outloud or freely offer truth to many many others but they have to wait for years to get that info WHICH I'd rather let people freely [very freely generously] teach all in God's Word to try to present any and all truth in the scriptures [ the USA has such resources but doesn't seem to be too concerned AND MANY Christians are very 'worldly minded so do not see any real need to be open TO ALL..NOT saying that you are that my friend/ but pointing out if we love truth lets share it to brethren at no cost freely and graciously!]..Lets start even a 'movement' in our minds to share all and not hold things back from other Christians.. whatever it takes to just pile on the truths from the Bible to all and I think we will see results in good time..Many Americans that are saved are deprived of that though some do not believe what I am saying that they are deprived of .Many towns do not let this good thing happen for some reason.Many are hardening hearts [from lack of] and others denying to help those who need it.I apply this to any in this thread .I am appealing to you.
H
VW she [Zone] may not of made that stuff up anyways..but it is good to show and present still all truths known relating to scriptures on the topics of course. Hal Lindsey wrote something on this in the past / at least one book but if anything he wrote it was very good info I do not doubt it. Possibly the title is 'The Coming Holocaust' ..I think that's the name.
H
What I mean is known truths of the Bible but I really too mean many christians do not get together and our present world distracts us from really seeing whats around us / we like our luxuries and things we possess [set them aside if so possible and look at the need of the other sheep around us is what I mean as an appeal ].. I do not in my area see many Christians doing this .That stuff does not have to just be done in a church building is what I mean too. I mean teachings of basic essential truths and build up on them . We have many things , advanced future wise, in the world and it can possibly blind us to what's really happening and that too to the sheep. This is really in my heart is why I typed in which I will then pray about this .I wish I were in the position to meet certain needs but I will pray too.I am not speaking of this thread OP topic actually [only as I put it above]..people can know the truth if they study the Word ,it is possible and very ideal and I mean heart knowledge in knowing Him.
A
1 Peter 3:21-22 (New King James Version)
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
Last edited:
U
Yes Grey .......let's do that.
Today's Israel Is God On Her Side?
By Jon Zens
"Rev. Jerry Falwell, founder of the Moral Majority, says he has been assured by Prime Minister Menachem Begin that Israel eventually will control an area that includes parts of Egypt and Turkey. 'Begin shares the Biblical view of the promised land,' said Falwell in a copyright story in Sunday's editions of the Tyler Courier-Times Telegraph. He said Begin, whom he termed a personal friend, told him that the first book of the Bible predicts Israel eventually will have boundaries on the Euphrates and Nile rivers and will include portions of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the Sudan, Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait." - Eugene Register-Guard (Eugene, OR), Feb. 7, 1983.
The above Israel-centered sentiments reflect one popular viewpoint among Bible-believers in America. Adherents of this view believe that all nations must bless and protect Israel or incur God's wrath. Few, however, realize that this particular prophetic perspective began in England with the Irvingites and J. N. Darby in the 1830's. This outlook had never before been suggested in the history of Christian thinking. Yet, because of seven trips that Darby made to America during his lifetime in the nineteenth century, his views ultimately came to dominate among evangelicals in the States.
The essence of this position is that
God has two purposes in history, an earthly one with Israel and a heavenly one with the church. From this vantage point what transpires in the world is Israel-centered. Hence, Charles Feinberg's 1980 book is titled Israel: At The Center of History and Revelation (Multnomah Press). As a result, the literature on "prophecy" that fills the shelves of bookstores brings readers the following dogmatic opinions:
What is God's will for today? This can be put into one word: Israel. Israel is the final chord of a scriptural age and at the same time she is the prelude to a new age, the millennium, the thousand year reign of peace. The eternal God is busy today fulfilling His holy will, that is, concerning Israel herself . . . All nations are compelled today to do God's will so that it is actually being said to Israel, "be built" and to the temple "be laid."
This two-purposes theory, which came to be called "Dispensationalism," carries with it a peculiar notion about Israel's "right" to certain geographical territory in Palestine. Proponents of this view claim that God has given Israel that land "forever." If she has a "divine right" to this soil, then it is easy to see how this provides justification for all types of military conflict, and causes a stumbling block to peaceful political solutions in the Middle East. (Of course, the problem is compounded since all Middle Eastern nations claim that God is with them).
Does Israel have God's sanction to possess a land in these days? Must Christians support Israel because God is with her in some special way? Is this post-1948 nation the center of history? Is Christ or Israel the focus of God's revelation? These and other questions will be addressed in what follows. God Promised a Land to Abraham
In Genesis 12:5-7 God spoke to Abraham and promises, "to your seed I will give this land." This foundational promise to Abram is the premise for contemporary claims that God has given a specific land to Israel "forever."
However, it is significant that Paul saw these words given to Abram -- "In you all the nations will be blessed" -- as an announcement of the gospel to the Gentiles, not as an indication of Israel's centrality as a measuring stick for world events (Gal. 3:8). God Sealed This Promise in a Covenant Ceremony
In Genesis 15:7-21 God makes a covenant with Abraham which was ratified by God symbolically passing through the pieces of meat. The giving of a defined territory is at the heart of this solemn ceremony: "to your seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river Euphrates; the Kenites, the Kenizites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perrizites, the Rephaims, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es and Jesu****es."
In the midst of this covenant-making event, the future of Israel is spelled out: bondage in Egypt for 400 years; the judgment upon Pharaoh; the Exodus; and entrance into the land described above in the fourth generation. God Fulfilled This Abrahamic Promise Later in History It is clear from a number of Old Testament statements that the land-promises to Abraham was indeed fulfilled. The land was given as delineated in Genesis 15, and several verses in Joshua are especially forceful in this regard:
So Joshua took the entire land, just as the Lord had directed Moses, and He gave it as an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal divisions (Josh. 11:23) . . . So the Lord gave Israel all the land He had sworn to their forefathers, and they
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took possession of it and settled there. The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as He had sworn to their forefathers . . . Not one of all the Lord's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled (Josh. 21:41-45).
There are many other Old Testament scriptures that echo this fulfillment theme (Gen. 28:13-15; 1 Kings 4:21, 8:56; Deut. 28; Exodus 3:17, 6:8; Deut. 30:20, 1:8, 7:2, 11:23, 34:1-4; Joshua 23:13-16; Neh. 9:8, 21-25). If the territorial dimension of the Lord's promise to Abraham was fulfilled, as these scriptures assert, this raises serious questions about the propriety of suggesting that twentieth-century "Israel" has a divine claim to this land. The Lord accomplished His word: He gave the descendants of Abraham the land described in Genesis 15:18-21. To purport that God has somehow not yet fulfilled the land-promises, or that they actually came to fruition in 1948, is to stretch the original prophetic word to Abraham beyond recognition.
Israel's Remaining in this Land was Conditioned on Obedience
There are many verses in Deuteronomy that reflect the foundation of the Mosaic covenant, "do this and live," with respect to the land. If Israel ever went after other gods and broke the covenant, she was assured by God that she would be "cast out of the land," Abiding in the land God had given to them was linked to their faithfulness. Unfaithfulness had serious consequences.
Israel's later history reflected the implications of her disobedience. The land was invaded by foreigners, and Israel was captive in a strange land. As time went on the Israelites were "dispersed" to various places in the world. It is this "casting out" of Israel from the land that sets the stage for a future concept of regathering into that lost territory. The New Testament Perspective on Israel and the Land
The New Testament teaches that the formation, history and institutions of Israel were types and shadows of spiritual realities that would come in the days of the Messiah (Heb. 8:1-5; 1 Cor. 10:18). The essential elements of Israel's life as a covenant people (prophet, priest, king, sacrificial system, ark of the covenant, etc.) were all fulfilled in the person and work of Jesus Christ (Luke 24:27, 44-45; Rom. 15:8; 2 Cor. 1:20).
The preparatory nature of the Mosaic economy must be underscored. The law-covenant had an historical beginning and ending (Gal. 3:17, 19, 25). the old covenant was temporary and lasted only "until the Seed (Christ) had come." When the fulfillment had come there was no reason to continue the types and shadows (Col. 2:16-17). Israel as an earthly people separated to God by the Exodus was to be fulfilled by Christ, whose obedience unto death constituted a New Exodus that would separate a New Covenant people for God's service.
It is only in this light that the "promised land" must be evaluated. The land given to Israel was never intended to be an end in itself. It pointed to something better in the future. Even Abraham who received the promises did not focus on earthly geography, but rather on a "better country -- a heavenly one . . . whose architect and builder is God" (Heb. 11:16, 10). Like other aspects of Israel's covenant life, the land was a picture of gospel realities to come, not an ongoing entity to be somehow reclaimed in the future by an earthly people in 1948.
The concept of "Israel" is fulfilled both in Christ and in the new people of God, the body of Christ. Jesus, like Israel, is called out of Egypt (Matt. 2:15) and finds Himself in the wilderness (Matt. 4:1-2). 2 Jesus, unlike Israel, is obedient to the covenant and is the "faithful servant" referred to in the Prophets.
In light of the emphasis given to alleged unalterable made to Israel about the land, it is instructive to recall that God's words were addressed to Abraham and his "seed," says Paul, was singular and refers to Christ, not to an earthly people (Gal. 3:16). Thus, for example, the promised offspring to Abraham must be seen as an innumerable company of believers, not as a regathering of an earthly nation (Gal. 3:29; Rev. 5:9, 7:9). The physical descendants of Abraham, who indeed became like the sand of the sea in number, were a picture of the harvest Christ would accomplish in the gospel age from every tribe, kindred and people. For this reason believers can be referred to by Paul as "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16). The Rise of "Zionism" Because Israel was cast out of the covenant land and forced to exist in cultures outside of Palestine, it is not suprising that as history elapsed a new form of Israelite nationalism would arise.
From the time of Constantine onwards those attached to the synagogues had a rough time functioning in other countries. They were often persecuted, mistreated, misunderstood and discriminated against. Nevertheless, being hard workers, they tended to prosper in their trades and businesses.
"Zion" came to refer to the deep attachment most Jews had for their homeland. "Zionism" is primarily a modern movement that arose out of some social struggles of the nineteenth century. Anti-Semitism, especially in Eastern Europe and Russia, caused the Jews to long for a rebirth of Judaism. This became connected to their "right" to the old promised land.
"Zionism" was divided into two camps. Some, like Ahad Ha'am, focused on spiritual renewal. But the major thrust, which was essentially political and nationalistic, came from men like Moses Hess, Leo Pinsker and Theodor Herzl.
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In the late nineteenth century some wealthy Jews in Western Europe helped assist in the establishment of small Jewish colonies in Palestine. In this context, Theodor Herzl's Der Judenstaat, "The Jewish State" (1896), became the foundation for modern Zionism. He came to the conclusion that a homeland for the Jews was the only solution to the mistreatments they were experiencing in most other places. Under his guidance the first Zionist Congress met in Basel, Switzerland, in 1897 and the World Zionist Organization was formed.
A proposal for a Jewish homeland obviously created a serious conflict with those already living in Palestine. What would happen to those already occupying this region? Would these people leave peacefully so that Jews could live in "their" land?
Herzl's ideas were passed on to a Russian-born Jew, Chaim Weizmann, in 1904. Because of his discovery of a powerful explosive called cordite (he was a chemist at the University of Manchester), Weizmann was brought into prominence. He used his influence top try and get the British government to conquer Palestine, hold it for Jewish immigration and settlement, and then allow the land to be used for British interests. Through a series of events the British took over Jerusalem in December of 1917. Then in the Balfour Declaration it was stated that Britain favored the establishment of a home in Palestine for the Jews, but not to the hurt of those already living in the area.
Needless to say, in the ensuing years tensions began to mount between Jewish settlers and the Arab population.
The Biltmore Conference (May, 1942), led by David Ben-Gurion, stated that British-controlled Palestine should become Jewish property. This alarmed many Jews, and as a result an anti-Zionist program regained strength and support. But Arabs resisted the importation of Jews into the land.
In 1947 the British turned over their control of Palestine to the newly-formed United Nations Organization. Under much political pressure, the U. N. finally partitioned off a small portion of the land (the size of Vermont) for the Jews in November of 1947. as the British withdrew in 1948, armed groups of Zionists forced thousands of Arabs to leave their homes. In the midst of this conflict there was a declaration of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948.
Since then there has been constant pressure for Jews to return to "the land." world Zionism looks upon this State as the home of all Jews. The Justification for Occupying "The Land" In order to justify the many political and military actions necessary to establish, maintain, defend and expand "the land," Zionists have used many Old Testament texts. Inherent in this approach is the idea that God is on Israel's side, and that He has purposed for her to possess this land. With this foundation a rationale is provided to kill people, to displace thousands of people, and to do what it takes to "rule."
"Support Israel or Experience God's Wrath" - Jerry Falwell To add to the problem many conservative Christians believe that the Old Testament supports Israel's right to the land, and they see May 14, 1948, as an amazing fulfillment of "prophecy." Those who hold to this perspective believe that Christians must be pro-Israel. Jerry Falwell asserted at a meeting of religious broadcasters, "theologically, any Christian has to support Israel, simply because Jesus said to."3 During the 1973 Yom Kippur war, Oral Roberts confidently posited, "there is no way Israel is going to be defeated, according to the Bible."4
Thus many television and radio preachers and Christian leaders fervently encourage their followers to support Israel in her efforts to maintain the land, and even exhort believers to contribute financial aid for Israel's cause.
Based on God's promise to Abraham -- "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you" -- many preachers are dogmatic in saying that all nations must support Israel or be doomed to the worst calamities.5 This leads to the conviction, of course, that the USA must support Israel's cause or experience God's wrath, as Jerry Falwell suggested.6 Tremendous pressure is exerted by pro-Israel forces upon our State Department not to do anything that would violate our good relations with Israel. To compound this problem, recent U. S. Presidents have embraced the notion of Israel's divine right to the land.7 "God Is With Us" The position of the Zionists and of many Christians creates many serious problems. If God is on Israel's side, then it becomes virtually impossible to critique her policies and actions. In principle, whatever Israel does must be right since God backs her supremacy in the land. We must never forget, however, that "God is with us" was inscribed on the belt buckles of those who burned Jews in ovens. History reveals that the "God is with us" slogan has often been behind the worst of atrocities. God Is Not With Israel or Any Other Nation In the former days God did separate Israel for Himself and give her the land promised to Abraham. Israel was special among all the nations of the earth (Deut. 7). But ultimately the blessing upon Abraham was to be given to all the nations (Matt. 28:19-20). With the coming of Christ God fulfilled all the promises to the fathers (Rom. 15:8). In this age, "God does not show favoritism, but accepts people from every nation who fear Him and do what is right" (Acts 10:34).
All of Israel's institutions were fulfilled in Christ -- including the land concept (Heb. 3-4). The Old Testament clearly states
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that God kept His work and gave the land to Israel. The notion that God had to give the land "again" is without Biblical foundation.
There is nothing wrong with Jews living in a certain land, but to claim a "divine right" to it and to employ this claim as a basis for disrupting, hurting, and killing others is wrong. God is not with people when they manipulate and intimidate others. God uses the wicked actions of people in His purposes, but He does not sanction them. Concluding Thoughts . . .
The Middle East conflicts have no easy solution. But we can be sure that a solution for the benefit of all involved cannot be realized as long as many Jews and Christians continue to maintain that God is with Israel in the taking of "the land." The "divine right" notion will only block efforts for peace in the Middle East. It can only serve as continued Justification for taking the lives of others in "serving God's cause."
More importantly, however, it must be noted that the Israel-centeredness of much Evangelicalism/Fundamentalism diverts attention away from the One God has set His seal upon -- Jesus Christ (John 6:27; Matt. 3:17). People are blessed or cursed not by how they treat Israel, but by how they respond to the claims of Christ upon their lives (Psalm 2:12; 1 Cor. 16:22). God's purpose focuses on the Son, not on an earthly nation (Eph. 1:22). The unfolding of the future is not gauged by what happens to Israel, but by what Christ is doing to build His congregations.
The Scriptures -- Old and New -- specifically tell us how God is with us. Jesus' name was Immanuel -- "God with us." God is with those who are in his Son, not with any nation. In this sense, then, He is with all those believers who are "in Christ."
Today's Israel Is God On Her Side?
By Jon Zens
"Rev. Jerry Falwell, founder of the Moral Majority, says he has been assured by Prime Minister Menachem Begin that Israel eventually will control an area that includes parts of Egypt and Turkey. 'Begin shares the Biblical view of the promised land,' said Falwell in a copyright story in Sunday's editions of the Tyler Courier-Times Telegraph. He said Begin, whom he termed a personal friend, told him that the first book of the Bible predicts Israel eventually will have boundaries on the Euphrates and Nile rivers and will include portions of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the Sudan, Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait." - Eugene Register-Guard (Eugene, OR), Feb. 7, 1983.
The above Israel-centered sentiments reflect one popular viewpoint among Bible-believers in America. Adherents of this view believe that all nations must bless and protect Israel or incur God's wrath. Few, however, realize that this particular prophetic perspective began in England with the Irvingites and J. N. Darby in the 1830's. This outlook had never before been suggested in the history of Christian thinking. Yet, because of seven trips that Darby made to America during his lifetime in the nineteenth century, his views ultimately came to dominate among evangelicals in the States.
The essence of this position is that
God has two purposes in history, an earthly one with Israel and a heavenly one with the church. From this vantage point what transpires in the world is Israel-centered. Hence, Charles Feinberg's 1980 book is titled Israel: At The Center of History and Revelation (Multnomah Press). As a result, the literature on "prophecy" that fills the shelves of bookstores brings readers the following dogmatic opinions:
What is God's will for today? This can be put into one word: Israel. Israel is the final chord of a scriptural age and at the same time she is the prelude to a new age, the millennium, the thousand year reign of peace. The eternal God is busy today fulfilling His holy will, that is, concerning Israel herself . . . All nations are compelled today to do God's will so that it is actually being said to Israel, "be built" and to the temple "be laid."
This two-purposes theory, which came to be called "Dispensationalism," carries with it a peculiar notion about Israel's "right" to certain geographical territory in Palestine. Proponents of this view claim that God has given Israel that land "forever." If she has a "divine right" to this soil, then it is easy to see how this provides justification for all types of military conflict, and causes a stumbling block to peaceful political solutions in the Middle East. (Of course, the problem is compounded since all Middle Eastern nations claim that God is with them).
Does Israel have God's sanction to possess a land in these days? Must Christians support Israel because God is with her in some special way? Is this post-1948 nation the center of history? Is Christ or Israel the focus of God's revelation? These and other questions will be addressed in what follows. God Promised a Land to Abraham
In Genesis 12:5-7 God spoke to Abraham and promises, "to your seed I will give this land." This foundational promise to Abram is the premise for contemporary claims that God has given a specific land to Israel "forever."
However, it is significant that Paul saw these words given to Abram -- "In you all the nations will be blessed" -- as an announcement of the gospel to the Gentiles, not as an indication of Israel's centrality as a measuring stick for world events (Gal. 3:8). God Sealed This Promise in a Covenant Ceremony
In Genesis 15:7-21 God makes a covenant with Abraham which was ratified by God symbolically passing through the pieces of meat. The giving of a defined territory is at the heart of this solemn ceremony: "to your seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river Euphrates; the Kenites, the Kenizites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perrizites, the Rephaims, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es and Jesu****es."
In the midst of this covenant-making event, the future of Israel is spelled out: bondage in Egypt for 400 years; the judgment upon Pharaoh; the Exodus; and entrance into the land described above in the fourth generation. God Fulfilled This Abrahamic Promise Later in History It is clear from a number of Old Testament statements that the land-promises to Abraham was indeed fulfilled. The land was given as delineated in Genesis 15, and several verses in Joshua are especially forceful in this regard:
So Joshua took the entire land, just as the Lord had directed Moses, and He gave it as an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal divisions (Josh. 11:23) . . . So the Lord gave Israel all the land He had sworn to their forefathers, and they
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took possession of it and settled there. The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as He had sworn to their forefathers . . . Not one of all the Lord's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled (Josh. 21:41-45).
There are many other Old Testament scriptures that echo this fulfillment theme (Gen. 28:13-15; 1 Kings 4:21, 8:56; Deut. 28; Exodus 3:17, 6:8; Deut. 30:20, 1:8, 7:2, 11:23, 34:1-4; Joshua 23:13-16; Neh. 9:8, 21-25). If the territorial dimension of the Lord's promise to Abraham was fulfilled, as these scriptures assert, this raises serious questions about the propriety of suggesting that twentieth-century "Israel" has a divine claim to this land. The Lord accomplished His word: He gave the descendants of Abraham the land described in Genesis 15:18-21. To purport that God has somehow not yet fulfilled the land-promises, or that they actually came to fruition in 1948, is to stretch the original prophetic word to Abraham beyond recognition.
Israel's Remaining in this Land was Conditioned on Obedience
There are many verses in Deuteronomy that reflect the foundation of the Mosaic covenant, "do this and live," with respect to the land. If Israel ever went after other gods and broke the covenant, she was assured by God that she would be "cast out of the land," Abiding in the land God had given to them was linked to their faithfulness. Unfaithfulness had serious consequences.
Israel's later history reflected the implications of her disobedience. The land was invaded by foreigners, and Israel was captive in a strange land. As time went on the Israelites were "dispersed" to various places in the world. It is this "casting out" of Israel from the land that sets the stage for a future concept of regathering into that lost territory. The New Testament Perspective on Israel and the Land
The New Testament teaches that the formation, history and institutions of Israel were types and shadows of spiritual realities that would come in the days of the Messiah (Heb. 8:1-5; 1 Cor. 10:18). The essential elements of Israel's life as a covenant people (prophet, priest, king, sacrificial system, ark of the covenant, etc.) were all fulfilled in the person and work of Jesus Christ (Luke 24:27, 44-45; Rom. 15:8; 2 Cor. 1:20).
The preparatory nature of the Mosaic economy must be underscored. The law-covenant had an historical beginning and ending (Gal. 3:17, 19, 25). the old covenant was temporary and lasted only "until the Seed (Christ) had come." When the fulfillment had come there was no reason to continue the types and shadows (Col. 2:16-17). Israel as an earthly people separated to God by the Exodus was to be fulfilled by Christ, whose obedience unto death constituted a New Exodus that would separate a New Covenant people for God's service.
It is only in this light that the "promised land" must be evaluated. The land given to Israel was never intended to be an end in itself. It pointed to something better in the future. Even Abraham who received the promises did not focus on earthly geography, but rather on a "better country -- a heavenly one . . . whose architect and builder is God" (Heb. 11:16, 10). Like other aspects of Israel's covenant life, the land was a picture of gospel realities to come, not an ongoing entity to be somehow reclaimed in the future by an earthly people in 1948.
The concept of "Israel" is fulfilled both in Christ and in the new people of God, the body of Christ. Jesus, like Israel, is called out of Egypt (Matt. 2:15) and finds Himself in the wilderness (Matt. 4:1-2). 2 Jesus, unlike Israel, is obedient to the covenant and is the "faithful servant" referred to in the Prophets.
In light of the emphasis given to alleged unalterable made to Israel about the land, it is instructive to recall that God's words were addressed to Abraham and his "seed," says Paul, was singular and refers to Christ, not to an earthly people (Gal. 3:16). Thus, for example, the promised offspring to Abraham must be seen as an innumerable company of believers, not as a regathering of an earthly nation (Gal. 3:29; Rev. 5:9, 7:9). The physical descendants of Abraham, who indeed became like the sand of the sea in number, were a picture of the harvest Christ would accomplish in the gospel age from every tribe, kindred and people. For this reason believers can be referred to by Paul as "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16). The Rise of "Zionism" Because Israel was cast out of the covenant land and forced to exist in cultures outside of Palestine, it is not suprising that as history elapsed a new form of Israelite nationalism would arise.
From the time of Constantine onwards those attached to the synagogues had a rough time functioning in other countries. They were often persecuted, mistreated, misunderstood and discriminated against. Nevertheless, being hard workers, they tended to prosper in their trades and businesses.
"Zion" came to refer to the deep attachment most Jews had for their homeland. "Zionism" is primarily a modern movement that arose out of some social struggles of the nineteenth century. Anti-Semitism, especially in Eastern Europe and Russia, caused the Jews to long for a rebirth of Judaism. This became connected to their "right" to the old promised land.
"Zionism" was divided into two camps. Some, like Ahad Ha'am, focused on spiritual renewal. But the major thrust, which was essentially political and nationalistic, came from men like Moses Hess, Leo Pinsker and Theodor Herzl.
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In the late nineteenth century some wealthy Jews in Western Europe helped assist in the establishment of small Jewish colonies in Palestine. In this context, Theodor Herzl's Der Judenstaat, "The Jewish State" (1896), became the foundation for modern Zionism. He came to the conclusion that a homeland for the Jews was the only solution to the mistreatments they were experiencing in most other places. Under his guidance the first Zionist Congress met in Basel, Switzerland, in 1897 and the World Zionist Organization was formed.
A proposal for a Jewish homeland obviously created a serious conflict with those already living in Palestine. What would happen to those already occupying this region? Would these people leave peacefully so that Jews could live in "their" land?
Herzl's ideas were passed on to a Russian-born Jew, Chaim Weizmann, in 1904. Because of his discovery of a powerful explosive called cordite (he was a chemist at the University of Manchester), Weizmann was brought into prominence. He used his influence top try and get the British government to conquer Palestine, hold it for Jewish immigration and settlement, and then allow the land to be used for British interests. Through a series of events the British took over Jerusalem in December of 1917. Then in the Balfour Declaration it was stated that Britain favored the establishment of a home in Palestine for the Jews, but not to the hurt of those already living in the area.
Needless to say, in the ensuing years tensions began to mount between Jewish settlers and the Arab population.
The Biltmore Conference (May, 1942), led by David Ben-Gurion, stated that British-controlled Palestine should become Jewish property. This alarmed many Jews, and as a result an anti-Zionist program regained strength and support. But Arabs resisted the importation of Jews into the land.
In 1947 the British turned over their control of Palestine to the newly-formed United Nations Organization. Under much political pressure, the U. N. finally partitioned off a small portion of the land (the size of Vermont) for the Jews in November of 1947. as the British withdrew in 1948, armed groups of Zionists forced thousands of Arabs to leave their homes. In the midst of this conflict there was a declaration of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948.
Since then there has been constant pressure for Jews to return to "the land." world Zionism looks upon this State as the home of all Jews. The Justification for Occupying "The Land" In order to justify the many political and military actions necessary to establish, maintain, defend and expand "the land," Zionists have used many Old Testament texts. Inherent in this approach is the idea that God is on Israel's side, and that He has purposed for her to possess this land. With this foundation a rationale is provided to kill people, to displace thousands of people, and to do what it takes to "rule."
"Support Israel or Experience God's Wrath" - Jerry Falwell To add to the problem many conservative Christians believe that the Old Testament supports Israel's right to the land, and they see May 14, 1948, as an amazing fulfillment of "prophecy." Those who hold to this perspective believe that Christians must be pro-Israel. Jerry Falwell asserted at a meeting of religious broadcasters, "theologically, any Christian has to support Israel, simply because Jesus said to."3 During the 1973 Yom Kippur war, Oral Roberts confidently posited, "there is no way Israel is going to be defeated, according to the Bible."4
Thus many television and radio preachers and Christian leaders fervently encourage their followers to support Israel in her efforts to maintain the land, and even exhort believers to contribute financial aid for Israel's cause.
Based on God's promise to Abraham -- "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you" -- many preachers are dogmatic in saying that all nations must support Israel or be doomed to the worst calamities.5 This leads to the conviction, of course, that the USA must support Israel's cause or experience God's wrath, as Jerry Falwell suggested.6 Tremendous pressure is exerted by pro-Israel forces upon our State Department not to do anything that would violate our good relations with Israel. To compound this problem, recent U. S. Presidents have embraced the notion of Israel's divine right to the land.7 "God Is With Us" The position of the Zionists and of many Christians creates many serious problems. If God is on Israel's side, then it becomes virtually impossible to critique her policies and actions. In principle, whatever Israel does must be right since God backs her supremacy in the land. We must never forget, however, that "God is with us" was inscribed on the belt buckles of those who burned Jews in ovens. History reveals that the "God is with us" slogan has often been behind the worst of atrocities. God Is Not With Israel or Any Other Nation In the former days God did separate Israel for Himself and give her the land promised to Abraham. Israel was special among all the nations of the earth (Deut. 7). But ultimately the blessing upon Abraham was to be given to all the nations (Matt. 28:19-20). With the coming of Christ God fulfilled all the promises to the fathers (Rom. 15:8). In this age, "God does not show favoritism, but accepts people from every nation who fear Him and do what is right" (Acts 10:34).
All of Israel's institutions were fulfilled in Christ -- including the land concept (Heb. 3-4). The Old Testament clearly states
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that God kept His work and gave the land to Israel. The notion that God had to give the land "again" is without Biblical foundation.
There is nothing wrong with Jews living in a certain land, but to claim a "divine right" to it and to employ this claim as a basis for disrupting, hurting, and killing others is wrong. God is not with people when they manipulate and intimidate others. God uses the wicked actions of people in His purposes, but He does not sanction them. Concluding Thoughts . . .
The Middle East conflicts have no easy solution. But we can be sure that a solution for the benefit of all involved cannot be realized as long as many Jews and Christians continue to maintain that God is with Israel in the taking of "the land." The "divine right" notion will only block efforts for peace in the Middle East. It can only serve as continued Justification for taking the lives of others in "serving God's cause."
More importantly, however, it must be noted that the Israel-centeredness of much Evangelicalism/Fundamentalism diverts attention away from the One God has set His seal upon -- Jesus Christ (John 6:27; Matt. 3:17). People are blessed or cursed not by how they treat Israel, but by how they respond to the claims of Christ upon their lives (Psalm 2:12; 1 Cor. 16:22). God's purpose focuses on the Son, not on an earthly nation (Eph. 1:22). The unfolding of the future is not gauged by what happens to Israel, but by what Christ is doing to build His congregations.
The Scriptures -- Old and New -- specifically tell us how God is with us. Jesus' name was Immanuel -- "God with us." God is with those who are in his Son, not with any nation. In this sense, then, He is with all those believers who are "in Christ."
Zone it saddens me to see someone attack Israel in this way, when you clearly have never been there to see what's going on. 2) Your bashing against Israel is a dangerous ground that you tread, because God stated clearly that cursed are those who curse Israel. God also said that we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Everything in scripture pertains to Israel in one way or another, and at the end Jesus will proclaim His kingdom IN ISRAEL and rule. To say that anyone who supports Israel is a betrayal of Jesus in just down right ignorant, I've watched you bash so many people on here, with such sarcasm and rudeness. You have so much knowledge but yet at the same time you don't know anything. I pray that God truly shows you His mercy and opens your eyes to the dillusion that the devil has laid over your eyes. May you truly find peace in Jesus. Shalom
S
Great reading, the last sentence really sums it up.
No matter what happens in the M.E. we all need to ask ourselves.. Am I truely In Christ???
There is far too much bickering and fighting going on in these forums. How is this perceived by those that come in here to 'search' and then walk away because they don't want any of this.?!
btw, unclefester... did you vote for the moose?
I for one believe that God brought the Israelites back to dwell in the land in 1948
I also believe that although most Jews are not now Christian a time is coming when as Paul wrote
All Israel will be saved.
And as God said
They will all know me from the least to the greatest
I certainly believe God is with Israel, despite as I saiid the majority not being Christian
Israel would not today be a nation unless God willed it and you are right, God says
Cursed are those who curse Israel
I fear that my own country may one day be against Israel and I believe they will suffer for it if this happens
There are so many Biblical prophecies stating that Israel will be brought back to their land, and many churches I have been to have been thrilled to see this happen.
God Bless
I also believe that although most Jews are not now Christian a time is coming when as Paul wrote
All Israel will be saved.
And as God said
They will all know me from the least to the greatest
I certainly believe God is with Israel, despite as I saiid the majority not being Christian
Israel would not today be a nation unless God willed it and you are right, God says
Cursed are those who curse Israel
I fear that my own country may one day be against Israel and I believe they will suffer for it if this happens
There are so many Biblical prophecies stating that Israel will be brought back to their land, and many churches I have been to have been thrilled to see this happen.
God Bless
no. John Hagee and dispensationalists say that.
and all who repeat this are under the warning of Rev 22
but that's just useless head knowledge.
carry on changing God's Word to excuse the killing going on in the name of the G-d of the Talmud.
btw: the blessing is Christ.
HERE'S WHAT HAGEE (and LBG) SAID:
Genesis 12
1Now the Lord saida to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3I will bless those who bless the jews, and him who dishonors the jews I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”b
HERE'S WHAT GOD SAID:
Genesis 12
The Call of Abram
1Now the Lord saida to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”b
So, are we justified in judging Israel, when we are guilty of the very same sins?
No one said Israel is perfect, but then again, are we?
Yes, but in Christ alone are we perfect, otherwise, in and of ourselves we are being perfected in Him, as the word of the cross works to do away with the life of the flesh.
One cannot separate natural Israel from spiritual Israel. Just as one cannot separate the natural man from the spiritual man, except God. God saves us by His choice, and by His choice alone. Jesus said that we did not choose Him, but He chose us. And even more, He said that no one comes to Him but the Father draws him. All this to say that God chose Israel, and He has not repented of that choice, in spite of all that she has done against Him. Thankfully, God keeps His word, or not only would Israel be lost, we would be lost also.
If one does not realize this, then they have not seen God.
No one said Israel is perfect, but then again, are we?
Yes, but in Christ alone are we perfect, otherwise, in and of ourselves we are being perfected in Him, as the word of the cross works to do away with the life of the flesh.
One cannot separate natural Israel from spiritual Israel. Just as one cannot separate the natural man from the spiritual man, except God. God saves us by His choice, and by His choice alone. Jesus said that we did not choose Him, but He chose us. And even more, He said that no one comes to Him but the Father draws him. All this to say that God chose Israel, and He has not repented of that choice, in spite of all that she has done against Him. Thankfully, God keeps His word, or not only would Israel be lost, we would be lost also.
If one does not realize this, then they have not seen God.