Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

[eternally-gratefull]

On the above proposition

But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:33

Now Jesus is being very blunt. Disown Him, He will disown you.

Now to be owned or taken as one with someone, Jesus says this

Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:32

So testify to Christ and He will testify about you before the King.

This is all 100% about faith.
If Jesus disowns you, you have no forgiveness or righteousness only judgement
to come.

please stop cutting my post in half. and making it sound as if I did not say something.

John said they are antichrist, and they were never of us. I never said someone who denys christ will get to heaven..

Jesus knows every aspect of our life. he knew it since birth. He knows who truly believe in him, and those who do not. He is not going to save a person he KNOWS will one day give him the finger and deny him..Why people think he would save them, and then one day have to take it back, because of something he already KNEW they were going to do is just outlandish.

 

[PeterJens]

EG...you always forget what else Jesus said to the woman "Go and sin no more".......You will rebelliously argue in favor of sin till the cows come home, yet you preach eternal salvation to others? Its an obsession with you, 40,000 posts of it...a rebellious man receives nothing from the Lord......

If one says I sin everyday, and here is an example of me sinning, then it is not
unreasonable to say this behaviour is acceptable.

The opposite reaction, following the Lord, would be I sin like this, of which I
repent and dedicate myself to not repeat it again. I confess this sin, before God
and man, and ask for forgiveness, accepting the forgiveness I have through the
cross.

Now for me that would be a biblical response to knowledge of sin and dealing
with it. But what we have is actually the opposite, apparent flaunting of
behaviour as if it is inevitable, which is glorying in rebellion.

I really do not believe the arrogance of such approaches, and wish people would
know the ministry of the Holy Spirit and conviction in their lives.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Fran, I wasn't referring to you specifically with that "before you attack me" comment. That was for everyone. I'll try to clarify more what I mean by "falling away". To me, it means going down our own path for awhile, sort of like the prodigal son who went and did his thing, but eventually got up the courage to return back home to his father. It's the same with us, no matter how long we are on our own path, God sits and waits patiently for us to return to HIS path and get off the no-good side streets.. lol.. I suppose doing our own thing does mean sinning, especially if we do the opposite of what God wants us to do. In my personal case, I was hanging out with the wrong crowd, swearing like a sailor, doing everything wrong. But never once did I stop believing in God. And when I finally smartened up and realized MY way wasn't working, I turned back to God. It is possible to stray away from God, while still believing in and having faith in Him. Like saying "Ok Lord, I can ride this bike by myself even though I don't know how. You don't need to hold the handle bars for me." LOL And when you wipe out on that bike because you can't control it, hopefully you're smart enough to admit "Ok Lord, I guess I need you to guide me again."

Hi Blue,
I don't know if you've been following along. I don't attack anybody. I just got tired of being attacked myself, that's all.

I read what you wrote twice.

By fall away, it seems like you're talking about sinning.

When Paul was speaking about falling away, he was NOT speaking about sinning.
We all sin and if we say we don't, we're lying. 1 John 1:10

When Paul was talking about falling away, he was talking about falling away from FAITH.
So, no matter how improbable it is, we CANNOT say that it's IMPOSSIBLE.

That's what I'm saying. It's not right to say that one cannot fall away if Paul says he can!!

I've listed many verses. They aren't accepted because we each like to believe what we believe.
The problem is that we can't each be right. One of us has to be wrong. So how to decide that?

First of al, every verse has to be exegeted correctly. This is not done here. I hear different persons explaining words away and biblical concepts away as if there is some mysterios aspect to it all.

The bible is simple and is meant for all to undersand. Not just those who know Greek, as I often hear that I don't understand because it means something diffefferent in the Greek. This is nonsense. This means that those of us who do not know it, can never undersand the bible!

Just look at this one verse...

Hebrews 3:12
See to it brothers, that none of you has a sinful UNBELIEVING heart that TURN AWAY from the living God....
versse 14: We have come to sahre in Christ IF WE HLD FIRMY TILL THE END, the confidence we had at first.

Paul is speaking to BROTHERS, not to unbelievers. Yet, I'll hear that they were not really saved. Thus also, setting themselves up as God, to know who is "really" saved an who isn't.

If PAUL says they are brothers, I MUST believe they are brothers. And Paul is telling them not to turn away from the living God.

So, like what happened to you. OK. But you said you NEVER STOPPED BELIEVING IN GOD.
And therein lies the catch.

We could sin, we could "go off the path", in your words, but we are to continue in our faith, we are to continue believing in God.

Belief and faith....................we are saved.
No belief, No faith............... we are not saved.


Blessings
Fran

 

[blue_ladybug]

Thank you for the rep on this post. It's greatly appreciated.

People CAN fall away from God, be it for a few weeks, months or even years. They can fall away AND STILL be saved. Now, before you attack me, I mean "fall away" in the sense that we may go entirely off our path with God. Been there, done that. I was, and AM, still saved. Just because someone falls off their path doesn't necessarily mean that they have stopped believing in God. I never stopped believing in Him, but was doing my own thing, instead of what GOD wanted me to do. It's a good thing that God is patient, and always waits for us on the path, to return to Him.

Now if someone doesn't believe in God, then obviously they won't be saved. They can't lose salvation because they never had it in the first place.

To those of you who believe that born-again, believing Christians don't or can't sin, that just is not true. One trip to the Family forum to read the adultery, divorce, porn or masturbation threads will prove it.

 

[Mooky]

So encouraging ,Blue.

 

[FranC]

please stop cutting my post in half. and making it sound as if I did not say something.

John said they are antichrist, and they were never of us. I never said someone who denies christ will get to heaven..

Jesus knows every aspect of our life. he knew it since birth. He knows who truly believe in him, and those who do not. He is not going to save a person he KNOWS will one day give him the finger and deny him..Why people think he would save them, and then one day have to take it back, because of something he already KNEW they were going to do is just outlandish.

God KNOWS what's going to happen.
He doesn't CAUSE it to happen.
I don't think you're a 5 point Calvinist.

So yes, you ARE saying that if one denys Christ he is still saved.

One can deny Christ at ANY POINT of his life.
IF I DENY CHRIST... I AM NOT SAVED. You're words... PERFECT.

Now if you would only understand that it could happen and at any time.
Jesus keep us. I understand your point.

But He cannot keep us against our will !
Only if we WANT Him to.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I really do not believe the arrogance of such approaches, and wish people would
know the ministry of the Holy Spirit and conviction in their lives.

So it is arrogant to realize you "miss the mark"(sin) and are in need of Gods grace.

Thank you.. That explains alot..

 

[blue_ladybug]

Thank you, Mooky.

So encouraging ,Blue.

 

[FranC]

Doesn't sound like you ever left the Lord.

THIS is leaving the Lord...

God. I used to believe in You. But you don't listen to me. You didn't answer my prayer.
I think You don't even exist.
I refuse to believe in a God like you. I've lost all faith.

THEN, you go ahead and live your life without God.

I used to teach kids. I used to tell them (12/13 yrs old) NEVER to abandon God, even while they were sinning.
God is Always ready to forgive us.

We have to be careful though how we say things. Maybe I'm very careful because every word I said meant something.
The Prodigal son is not a good example, because...

What if he had died BEFORE going back to the father???

§The Prodigal son got all his inheritance before leaving...
He would have gotten nothing else had he never gone back home.

But then he decided he was wrong and went back home where his father was waiting with open arms. As is God, IF we truly turn away from Him.

Two different scenarios, however.

Fran, I wasn't referring to you specifically with that "before you attack me" comment. That was for everyone. I'll try to clarify more what I mean by "falling away". To me, it means going down our own path for awhile, sort of like the prodigal son who went and did his thing, but eventually got up the courage to return back home to his father. It's the same with us, no matter how long we are on our own path, God sits and waits patiently for us to return to HIS path and get off the no-good side streets.. lol.. I suppose doing our own thing does mean sinning, especially if we do the opposite of what God wants us to do. In my personal case, I was hanging out with the wrong crowd, swearing like a sailor, doing everything wrong. But never once did I stop believing in God. And when I finally smartened up and realized MY way wasn't working, I turned back to God. It is possible to stray away from God, while still believing in and having faith in Him. Like saying "Ok Lord, I can ride this bike by myself even though I don't know how. You don't need to hold the handle bars for me." LOL And when you wipe out on that bike because you can't control it, hopefully you're smart enough to admit "Ok Lord, I guess I need you to guide me again."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God KNOWS what's going to happen.
He doesn't CAUSE it to happen.
I don't think you're a 5 point Calvinist.

1. I never claimed to be a calvanist, in fact, I preach against many of his teachings, because they make me sick.
2. Cause? Not sure what you mean, how do you get that I said God caused something, Just asking..

So yes, you ARE saying that if one denys Christ he is still saved.

No I am not.. One why denys christ has never been saved, as John said. Please do not twist my words.. I have enough of that from willy and Peter.

One can deny Christ at ANY POINT of his life.

Yes he can, And you better believe, when they do it, they did not surprise God.

God does not go and say "Oh Myself, I did not know that person would deny me, I have to take my salvation back"

He knew they would do it before they were even born.

IF I DENY CHRIST... I AM NOT SAVED. You're words... PERFECT.

Yep. and never have been saved and will not be saved unless you repent and have TRUE FAITH

Now if you would only understand that it could happen and at any time.

I never said it could not happen at any time, It can, for someone who never had faith in christ. that is the whol epurpose of Johns scripture. that we have an anointing, so we should not worry about someone who was in our midst, who we grew close to. Who decided to became a christ denier and depart from the church.. They were never of us, If they were, they never would have left was johns words.

Jesus keep us. I understand your point.

what do you think I mean (asking for clarification)

But He cannot keep us against our will !
Only if we WANT Him to.

He wont keep us against our will.. He knows our TRUE WILL.

anyone born of God will NEVER want to depart.. Anyone who has departed was never of us.

Thos are johns words, not my own

edit..

I may be able to fool you and many people into thinking i am a christian, I can and will never be able to fool God.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Hmmm.. Well, let's say the prodigal son had given up on God entirely. I don't believe in you anymore, you don't exist, I've lost my faith in you Lord. Then the son goes out and does his own thing, and dies whilst in the middle of doing life without God. Maybe in that last moment of breath, he says "Lord, I'm sorry. I've believed in you all along, but was stupid and selfish. Please forgive me." Would God forgive him even after the son totally denied Him? Given that the son repented right before death, I'd like to think God would.

I'd also like to think that when we die, any unrepented sin we have with us, that God will give us one last chance to repent when we stand in front of Him, before he judges us. But that's JMO.

 

[PeterJens]

So it is arrogant to realize you "miss the mark"(sin) and are in need of Gods grace.
Thank you.. That explains alot..

Let me put the point in a clearer fashion.
To parade sin, confess it is sin and do nothing about it is arrogance.

Sin is everything we choose to do, and we are in control of.
Even if we are unaware of a sinful act, it does not make us innocent.

The demons know they are under judgement and shudder, but it does not
make them forgiven. Without repentance no one can be saved.

So I am shocked that a believer can say they are a sinner but it does not
matter if they repeat the sin, day in day out. Listen to Gods judgement
in the book of revelation against such behaviour.

Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rev 2:16

They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Rev 16:9

 

[FranC]

Hmmm.. Well, let's say the prodigal son had given up on God entirely. I don't believe in you anymore, you don't exist, I've lost my faith in you Lord. Then the son goes out and does his own thing, and dies whilst in the middle of doing life without God. Maybe in that last moment of breath, he says "Lord, I'm sorry. I've believed in you all along, but was stupid and selfish. Please forgive me." Would God forgive him even after the son totally denied Him? Given that the son repented right before death, I'd like to think God would.

I'd also like to think that when we die, any unrepented sin we have with us, that God will give us one last chance to repent when we stand in front of Him, before he judges us. But that's JMO.

If a person is sincere, he can be saved at the last moment of his life.
This is why we're not to judge a persons soul. ONLY his actions. It's OK to tell someone they shouldn't steal...
But it's never OK to tell someone that they're not saved, or are saved. Only God knows.

This is why I have a problem on this thread with some saying that a person was "never really saved to begin with".
How could they possibly know this?? (to make it fit their belief system).

As far as one last chance...
This is not biblical.
What makes you believe this. This is also a Dangerous belief.

Hebrews 9:27
"For it is appointed for man to die ONCE, and THEN comes the judgement."


2 Corinthians 5:6-8
[to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord]


Luke 16:19-31
The Rich Man and Lazarus

You'll note that the faithful were waiting in Abraham's bossom.
The lost were already in their destination.

And there was no hope for them.

 

[PeterJens]

No I am not.. One why denys christ has never been saved, as John said. Please do not twist my words.. I have enough of that from willy and Peter.

This is a retrospective salvation idea.
Someone comes to faith but in later life denies Christ, they were never saved.

Someone has an experience, is religious and then comes to saving faith, they were never
saved before but now have true faith.

In truth none of us knows, and it does not matter as we are called to love all equally
and think the best of them.

Now twisting what someone says can come in many forms. We can say something which
has implications we did not realise. Now if they are pointed out, it is not twisting the words
it is showing where they lead, whether the person realised it or not. And this is often what
is objected about.

But this is the point of discussion, redefining ones meaning so it is clear, then everyone is
happy. I get the impression that people hate the implications of their faith, so want to just
look at it from one angle and claim the other perspectives are lies though equally true.

A for instance, execution of a murderer could be deemed as cruel. But from Gods perspective
it is justice. So ones perspective matters, and when dealing with the Lord we need always
to seek out His perspective as He is the judge of all, and we often get it wrong.

 

[PeterJens]

A statement of belief
We are saved through faith in Christ and the cross, which bears fruit in our lives by love
and obedience to Christ.

Now we are saved because of faith, and the effect of this faith is obedience and love.

This is not saying by obedience we earn our salvation. It is actually declaring the opposite,
obedience is the fruit of faith, not faith the fruit of obedience.

Now I have been told I am saying obedience produces faith, but this is simply not true, a lie,
an attempt to push me into a box and close the door. Now those who do this are actually
responding to a position which says once you are saved your behaviour has no effect on
your standing with Christ, in faith or actions.

For this to be true, then it can be said you can be saved and the worst sinner in the world
and still go to heaven, even though you live a life in total rebellion against God.

Now emotionally this is not what they are saying. What they are really saying is with their
best efforts they cannot walk pleasingly before the Lord, but they will try, but will always
fail. The problem is one failure in their mind is the same as total rebellion, so they are no
worse off in total rebellion or staying as they are. It is justifying a sinful life as acceptable.

And this is their fatal flaw. Once Christ is defeated in faith in their lives, nothing is actually
left, and license to sin is provided. I would love to see a better argument in their model but
I do not see one, except in their failure they expect forgiveness while sinning. They even at
one point described in detail how this might work, astounding.

 

[FranC]

This is a retrospective salvation idea.
Someone comes to faith but in later life denies Christ, they were never saved.

Someone has an experience, is religious and then comes to saving faith, they were never
saved before but now have true faith.

In truth none of us knows, and it does not matter as we are called to love all equally
and think the best of them.

Now twisting what someone says can come in many forms. We can say something which
has implications we did not realise. Now if they are pointed out, it is not twisting the words
it is showing where they lead, whether the person realised it or not. And this is often what
is objected about.

But this is the point of discussion, redefining ones meaning so it is clear, then everyone is
happy. I get the impression that people hate the implications of their faith, so want to just
look at it from one angle and claim the other perspectives are lies though equally true.

A for instance, execution of a murderer could be deemed as cruel. But from Gods perspective
it is justice. So ones perspective matters, and when dealing with the Lord we need always
to seek out His perspective as He is the judge of all, and we often get it wrong.

How can execution of a muderer be justice in God's eyes??

Thou Shalt Not Kill (murder)

Genesis 4:14-15

The life is in the blood.
God does not want the shedding of blood.
He did not even want Cain to be killed.

 

[JIMBO43]

Can one lose there salvation.... I really dont think so...

Simply because something salvaged can neve be lost again... period....

Do we recieve salvation while where alive in the body.... Absolutely not....

Do we get saved while where in the body absolutely yes.....

I think saved and salvation has two diffrent meanings

 

[JIMBO43]

One must hope for salvation everyday

 

[PeterJens]

How can execution of a muderer be justice in God's eyes??

Thou Shalt Not Kill (murder)

Genesis 4:14-15

The life is in the blood.
God does not want the shedding of blood.
He did not even want Cain to be killed.

If anyone schemes and kills someone deliberately, that person is to be taken from my altar and put to death.
Exodus 21:14

Justice is bringing judgement for sinful actions done in the community.

 

[PeterJens]

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding
Prov 3:5

As I have grown older I have been surprised at what people say and do and
try and justify to themselves and others.

I am not here to judge, but to encourage people to walk in righteousness and
love. It is up to the individuals to take heart and walk in the Spirit in repentance
and faith. Now there is obvious error one can correct, but the condemnation for
obedience and love to others is astounding and shocking. It is literally condemning
righteous behaviour which is the work of the enemy.

Everyone is called to obey and love one another. Why would anyone deny the words
of Christ and claim to be acknowledge by Him before the Father?