Everyone who committing sin, is a slave of sin (John 8:34-35)

[Bowhunter2394]

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[TD="class: vDispb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]But he giveth more Grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth Grace unto the humble.

the Inner man, is where God dwells with His People, those who are presumptuous, self righteous, arrogant, He will NOT TOLERATE! God uses Broken, Humble Vessels, those who know they have nothing on this earth, but Him! and its thru Him and By Him they have their 'being' on this planet.. [/TD]
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[KJV1611]

Here is the irony of this thread. Those who are think they are perfect are exactly the ones that Paul is preaching against. They are actually walking in the flesh by trying to please God through their own good works.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Here is the irony of this thread. Those who are think they are perfect are exactly the ones that Paul is preaching against. They are actually walking in the flesh by trying to please God through their own good works.

Yep I saw the same thing.. only when the Veil of the flesh is removed....and only WHEN, will they see, and that Veil remover is Christ, He is the ONLY ONE that can remove it, the person has to be Given to Christ FIRST from the Father, no other way.. and if it is another way. then THUS ye have the thread ye have! lolz...

 

[seed_time_harvest]

No. Romans 7:25 does not say the Law of Christ. It says the Law of God (Even in the KJV).

However, to help you understand what is being said here in the 1600's English on this passage, here is what the Good News Translation says,

Romans 7:25 GNT
"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ!
This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin."

In other words, when Paul was a Jew who strived to obey the Law of Moses without Christ, he served God's law with his mind and yet still struggled with his sin nature because he did not have Jesus Christ yet in his life to overcome sin. For Jesus says if you sin, you are a slave to sin; And the only way to stop sinning is to truly have a real walk with Jesus Christ. Obeying the law on one's own effort is never going to stop a person from sinning.

JESUS IS the WORD of GOD.

 

[Jason0047]

exactly what accusation did I make? and btw God doesn't simply allow evil but while you look at a persons sins mistakes and flaws and see evil he looks to the heart of the person rather than all the screw ups they did. while you see somemone who does evil he may very well see a pure and golden heart. so whose eyes are you looking through?

The accusation was in saying that the gospel I preach that does teach a believer should stop sinning is of the devil. You know that is what I teach. I have kept repeating that teaching here. So you are saying my gospel is of the devil. Which is wrong. You are saying that for one to stop sinning is wrong and evil like the devil. I think yoiu have things backwards. Not to do evil is not wrong. Doing evil is wrong. Yes, there are believers who struggle with sin and they repent of such sin like the Tax Collector. But no true believer ever says they will forever be in their sin (as if to say they are a slave to their sin). Believers do not make excuses for sin, whether it be one sin or many sins.

Also, if a person does evil, God is not going to look past such evil and just think everything is okay.

I want you to read the follow passage below and ask yourself if you think those who have a form of Godliness are allowed to get away with certain sins. Ask yourself are these saved Christians? Ask yourself, do you not believe you and or others can do some of the following sins below on occasion and still be right before God or saved?

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, can you be a lover of your self?
Can you be covetous?
Can you be a boaster?
Can you be proud?
Can you be unholy?
Can you be without natural affection?
Can you be a false accuser?
Can you be a despiser of those that are good?
Can you be a lover of pleasures more than a lover of God?
Can you be heady and or high minded?

And still think you are saved?

If you said yes to a few of the above (with the thinking you can still be saved), then you have placed yourself into the category of people in whom Paul describes as having resisted the truth, who have corrupt minds, and who are reprobate concerning the faith.

 

[Jason0047]

JESUS IS the WORD of GOD.

And that explains the passages I brought up? That gives you an excuse to say a believer can sin on occasion (with the thinking they are saved) or to say that the believer will never stop sinning? Sorry, I just do not see how you saying Jesus is the Word of God explains all that. Jesus is God Almighty in the flesh. He is the Eternal Word made flesh. He is God and He is Holy, righteous, and good and will not let anyone to do any kind of evil or sin in his name. Jesus says if you sin, you are a slave to sin. Do you believe Jesus?

 

[Jason0047]

Yep I saw the same thing.. only when the Veil of the flesh is removed....and only WHEN, will they see, and that Veil remover is Christ, He is the ONLY ONE that can remove it, the person has to be Given to Christ FIRST from the Father, no other way.. and if it is another way. then THUS ye have the thread ye have! lolz...

So what your saying is we have to give into sin on occasion and think we cannot stop sinning and not believe Jesus when he says we should be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect? Sorry, I am not buying it. To give into the defeat of sin means you have let the devil win.

 

[Jason0047]

Here is the irony of this thread. Those who are think they are perfect are exactly the ones that Paul is preaching against. They are actually walking in the flesh by trying to please God through their own good works.

So you don't believe Jesus when He told us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect?

In other words, try doing a study on the word "perfect" at Blue Letter Bible in the New Testament.

 

[Jason0047]

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[TD="class: vDispb, bgcolor: #F5F5F5"]But he giveth more Grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth Grace unto the humble.

the Inner man, is where God dwells with His People, those who are presumptuous, self righteous, arrogant, He will NOT TOLERATE! God uses Broken, Humble Vessels, those who know they have nothing on this earth, but Him! and its thru Him and By Him they have their 'being' on this planet..[/TD]
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So the person who holds onto their sin in which they do on occasion is the humble servant and not the proud servant? Sorry, you are not making any sense. To sin and confess and seek not to forsake sin and remove it from your life is to do what the Catholics do. Go thru a sin and wash cycle every week. Sorry, it doesn't work like that.

Yes, if someone is honestly seeking to overcome sin, then God's mercy is there for them if they are struggling with a particular sin. But confessing one's sins to God is not a license for a person to sin on occasion or to think they will never stop sinning.

 

[Jason0047]

Im not uncomfortable to talk about Scripture, I have declared and Taught. I could discuss Scripture with you till im blue in the face, but you will NOT UNDERSTAND, nor will you be Illuminated to the Truth.. because your 'ears' are shut Jason. they tRuly are.. only God Himself can open your Ears.. like I said before, your going to be a fantastic worker, in the coming Whore of Revelation 17, your master has prepped and preened you well.... wow... but in the End of that 'puffed up pride and self righteouness is Gehenna Fire, by which some are already bound for! their fruit is evident!

No, you are not discussing the Scriptures because you do not know how to defend your sin and still be saved belief. You cannot do so because the Bible does not teach such a thing.

 

[Jason0047]

Said post has been tidely ignored by you...#26

No, I have not ignored your post #26. I have already replied to it with Post #34 (Long before your post #65). For I properly explained each of the verses. You can check that post out here.

 

[Jason0047]

And what about God knowing us, Jesus said I never knew YOU, He didn't say You never knew ME.
What did Paul mean when he said?But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God
Galations 4:9

EDIT: Sorry, I realised i'm sidetracking here, I think I'm focusing on the solution of sin, which I always tend to do, look for the solution in something rather than the problem and what I'm getting at is the solution is Jesus, not our own works.

It is not our own works that is the solution. It is God's work done in you that is the test or proof that you have been saved. God (Christ) is the source of your salvation and abiding with Him is how one is saved. In Matthew 7, Jesus speaking to those who do not have a relationship with Jesus. Hence, the reason why Jesus said he did not know them. And if Jesus did not know them, then they did not know Jesus. Having a walk with God is not a one way street. Amos says how can two walk together unless they be agreed?

As for Galatians 4:9: Well, this passage is not saying what you think it is saying. It is best understood when looking at a Modern Translation instead of the KJV in this case.

"Before you Gentiles knew God, you were slaves to so-called gods that do not even exist. So now that you know God (or should I say, now that God knows you), why do you want to go back again and become slaves once more to the weak and useless spiritual principles of this world? You are trying to earn favor with God by observing certain days or months or seasons or years. I fear for you. Perhaps all my hard work with you was for nothing. Dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to live as I do in freedom from these things, for I have become like you Gentiles—free from those laws." (Galatians 4:8-12 NLT).

Yeah, but doesn't God know everything? Wouldn't that mean He knows everyone because God is Omniscient? Yes, He would. So then how can God say He never knew them?

Psalm 34:15-16

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

Ezekiel 18:24 says,

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.​

 

[Jason0047]

What is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit and a person that received Grace will be grateful and renew their mind.
Paul said that in him there was no good thing(that is in his flesh)
In the spirit there is a good thing.
Everyone that has this hope in them will seek to purify themselves.

When Paul said there was no good thing in him in Romans 7:18, he was speaking from the perspective of when he was a Jew before he became a Christian. We know this because Romans 7:14 says he is sold under sin and in Romans 8:2, he says he is free from sin.

As for everyone who has this hope seeks to purify themselves: While this sounds all well and good, it doesn't really mean anything if they are claiming they cannot stop from sin and or that they sin on occasion (Because they believe all believers will continue to sin in some way).

 

[A_Friend_In_Christ]

Take a breath! Amen.

 

[MikkoAinasoja]

When Paul said there was no good thing in him in Romans 7:18, he was speaking from the perspective of when he was a Jew before he became a Christian. We know this because Romans 7:14 says he is sold under sin and in Romans 8:2, he says he is free from sin.

As for everyone who has this hope seeks to purify themselves: While this sounds all well and good, it doesn't really mean anything if they are claiming they cannot stop from sin and or that they sin on occasion (Because they believe all believers will continue to sin in some way).

I believe that our dear brother Paul in Romans 8, writes about how his body is like prone to do sin, and the temptation is there, in his body members, even though he do not anymore join in his flesh like before, because now he have the mind of the Spirit, and not mind of the flesh, like he before have, but the flesh is there, but the mind is not under the flesh anymore.

 

[Blain]

The accusation was in saying that the gospel I preach that does teach a believer should stop sinning is of the devil. You know that is what I teach. I have kept repeating that teaching here. So you are saying my gospel is of the devil. Which is wrong. You are saying that for one to stop sinning is wrong and evil like the devil. I think yoiu have things backwards. Not to do evil is not wrong. Doing evil is wrong. Yes, there are believers who struggle with sin and they repent of such sin like the Tax Collector. But no true believer ever says they will forever be in their sin (as if to say they are a slave to their sin). Believers do not make excuses for sin, whether it be one sin or many sins.

Also, if a person does evil, God is not going to look past such evil and just think everything is okay.

I want you to read the follow passage below and ask yourself if you think those who have a form of Godliness are allowed to get away with certain sins. Ask yourself are these saved Christians? Ask yourself, do you not believe you and or others can do some of the following sins below on occasion and still be right before God or saved?

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

ok first off telling you that the particular gospel you preach is not of God is not an accusation it's a fact second I never once claimed that to stop sinning is wrong or evil I said to think you no longer ever sin or are sinless doctrine is. If you truly believe you no longer sin and have no sin in yourself that doesn't make you evil just confused. And that scripture you posted says nothing about never sinning again or being without sin. Do i approve of living a life full of sin? No grace is not a free ticket to do as we please but I also know that we are human we mess up sometimes

 

[adeelfrancis25]

That is true and one can never get out from the sinful life when we are committed in God and when we are fully devoted in God name. So we should always never worried and keep on taking care of our body.

 

[Jason0047]

ok first off telling you that the particular gospel you preach is not of God is not an accusation

Uh, no. It's an accusation against what I believe the Bible plainly teaches. For example: If I said your doctrine was of the devil, how would you take that? Well, I do believe what you believe is a doctrine of the devil. A sin and still be saved doctrine is always a devil's doctrine. There are certain things we can judge each other on. Wrong doctrine is one of them.

it's a fact

No, it's not. You have failed to establish it as a fact with Scripture. But you don't believe in quoting Scripture.... which is yet another unBiblical concept. Jesus and the apostles quoted Scripture all the time. Man shall live by bread alone but by every word of God.

second I never once claimed that to stop sinning is wrong or evil I said to think you no longer ever sin or are sinless doctrine is.

Uh, they are the same thing. They are not too different things. A believer is to confess and forsake sin. Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Jesus was referencing Jonah chapter 3. In that chapter we see that the Ninevites had departed from their wicked ways. So repentance involves turning away from sin, evil, and wickedness in one's life.

If you truly believe you no longer sin

Well, as I said before, I am not saying I cannot faulter. What I am saying is what the Bible plainly teaches on repentance concerning sin. I have asked you to discuss the verses I brought up that talk about a believer ceasing from sin. Yet, you have completely ignored it. Read 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24. These clearly show a believer is supposed to stop from sin. Also, Peter identifies certain false prophets as not having ceased from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14). Jesus says, be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).

Just look at the search results on the word "perfect" here for yourself in relation to the believer.

KJV Search Results for "perfect"

and have no sin in yourself that doesn't make you evil just confused.

No, there person who believes Scripture when it says believers are supposed to stop sinning is not confused. The person who believes they will be a slave to sin in the fact that they will always sin and thinks they are saved is confused. Jesus says if you sin, you are a slave to s sin. I ask you again. Do you believe Jesus when He says that?

And that scripture you posted says nothing about never sinning again or being without sin.

What that passage shows is a state of many claiming to be of God's church today. You believe a person can sin and still be saved. I asked the questions above what types of sin in relation to that verse can a believer commit and still think they are saved and you just completely ignored it. Why exactly is that?

Many in who I have talked to who believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine actually do some of those sins with the thinking they are saved.

Do i approve of living a life full of sin? No grace is not a free ticket to do as we please but I also know that we are human we mess up sometimes

So there is a difference in living in a lot of sin versus say doing a few sins every once and a while? See, people here treat sin as if they accidentally walked on God's perfectly good lawn or something. They say.... Hey, I messed up. My bad, man. There is no true Godly sorrow in that. No, it is not just a minor mess up. It is outright evil and wrong to sin against God and it hurts God greatly when a person sins. The only way to get right with God is to confess and forsake sin and not make excuses that you will do so at another later date. We have to realize sin is very seriious. if the Spirit does not convict a person to repent and forsake sin in their life and to seek Godliness then something is not right at in the house that God is supposed to be living in. For can God live in a house that makes excuses that they will just always stumble into sin? That's like saying to one's wife that they will always stumble into cheating on her. Does that make sense to you? How long do you think a relationship will last if a man cheats on his wife? For that is what sin is. Cheating on God.

 

[Jason0047]

I believe that our dear brother Paul in Romans 8, writes about how his body is like prone to do sin, and the temptation is there, in his body members, even though he do not anymore join in his flesh like before, because now he have the mind of the Spirit, and not mind of the flesh, like he before have, but the flesh is there, but the mind is not under the flesh anymore.

Most Christians are wrong for believing that Romans chapter 7 is talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. Actually, Paul is warning those brothers who know the Law (See verse 1, Romans 7:1) and he is warning them not to go back to it. He is referring to his experience as an outward Jew (Before He came to Christ) trying to obey the Law. Paul gives these believers (who might be tempted to go back so as to be justified by the Law of Moses) the solution to overcome their struggle to keep the Law with Romans 8:1 (in the next chapter).

#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.

In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."

Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.

For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12, 14, 17, 18, 19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10, 11).

This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.

#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is not primarily interested here in discussing anyone's struggle with sin. He is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.

#3. Paul knows that Christians struggle with sin; after all, many of his letters are written to help churches deal with sin. But he discusses the Christian struggle with sin in the next chapter (Romans 8:10-14). His conclusions about the struggle there do not seem to me to be consistent if chapter 7 is also about the Christian struggle with sin.

#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.

#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.

“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).
“But I see another law… making me a prisoner of the law of sin” (Romans 7:23). Compare to “but now, freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Romans 6:22); and “the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2).

If Paul says that Christian are no longer in the flesh and are no longer slaves or prisoners of sin, then it seems to make the most sense to say that he is talking about his pre-Christian experience when he was Jew here in Romans 7:14-25.

Anyways, I hope this helps.

And may God bless you.


Sources Used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Theology Online | Christian Forums & More - View Single Post - ECT Christians and the Old Testament
(Please take note that I do not believe everything the author of this article says; I merely agree with certain points he has made in Romans 7).