Evidence of the Spirit with the Believer

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L

LT

Guest
#1
Hopefully this thread will be more productive than the one it is 'spinning off' of.

Is the evidence of the Spirit the signs or the fruit?

We know that signs can come from even the Evil One, as they are prophesied to before the End,
Therefore, though signs can, and often do, accompany the presence of the Spirit, the TRUE evidence of the Spirit is not in signs, but in the Fruit of the Spirit.

Second issue is: are signs meant to encourage Believers, or meant to reach out to the unsaved?
The Word shows that the edifying gifts are for Believers. Sign gifts are unto, and for, the lost sheep
to bring them to the fold.
 
L

LT

Guest
#2
I am not a cessationist (which believe the sign gifts to no longer be given).
I am not against speaking in tongues,
or prophecy or healing or miracles.
In fact, I EXPECT the miraculous to occur, because our God is an active and Living God.

But I do think that the FOCUS on sign gifts in many congregations, is misplaced focus.
 
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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,062
1,035
113
New Zealand
#3
In answer to the signs part:

Well I am a person who believes in faith hope and love as the remaining abiding gifts of the Holy Spirit, but at least from the perspective of the churches in the New Testament as the signs were then..

The signs were for very particular purposes:

Jesus was showing His authority.. there was no New Testament complete for people to be guided by.. and Jesus was challenging the Jews to accept Him as the OT prophesied Messiah.

The apostles were also showing their authority from Jesus to do what they do.

Acts 2 tongues-- was for the purpose of spreading the gospel..to non believers. People were hearing God's word spoken in their own languages. And that was what it was.. languages. Not known to the speaker of the language.. supernaturally inspired. It was not 'ecstatic utterances' So tongues were for the unsaved.

Miracles-Jesus and the apostles showing authority to spread God's churches and get people saved.


The thing is though.. and this would apply to now also: is -- what is your understanding of the works of the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit doesn't just work with an individual.. but also with local church families. So when looking at scripture.. it's needful to look at whether a whole local church is being addressed or not.

For eg.. (Gal 3:1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

(Gal 3:2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


(Gal 3:3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul is addressing the whole Galatian local church. This isn't about an individual 'receiving the Spirit' but when the whole Galatians church became one of God's churches.

When a church is rightly established.. the Holy Spirit will then give His presence to be 'in the midst' of the assembly. (Not a building.. but a church family).

So in Galatians.. Paul addresses the whole Galatians church.. telling them not to be infected by Jews bringing in Judaism to take them away from the system of following Jesus through New Testament service.
 
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Dec 1, 2014
1,430
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#4
Yes..the Holy Spirit works in crowds, congregations..but never ever rule out the idea that the Holy Spirit also works and makes His presence known to the private individual..something that you never addressed here. is there a reason for that? I have been in evangelical crusades and witnessed many supernatural occurences, but I have also been in my private prayer closet where the Holy Spirit showed up and I was healed, or taken to my knees and shown where I need to make a change. Either way, I have been blessed and look forward to more.
 
L

LT

Guest
#5
In answer to the signs part:

Well I am a person who believes in faith hope and love as the remaining abiding gifts of the Holy Spirit, but at least from the perspective of the churches in the New Testament as the signs were then..

The signs were for very particular purposes:

Jesus was showing His authority.. there was no New Testament complete for people to be guided by.. and Jesus was challenging the Jews to accept Him as the OT prophesied Messiah.

The apostles were also showing their authority from Jesus to do what they do.

Acts 2 tongues-- was for the purpose of spreading the gospel..to non believers. People were hearing God's word spoken in their own languages. And that was what it was.. languages. Not known to the speaker of the language.. supernaturally inspired. It was not 'ecstatic utterances' So tongues were for the unsaved.

Miracles-Jesus and the apostles showing authority to spread God's churches and get people saved.


The thing is though.. and this would apply to now also: is -- what is your understanding of the works of the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit doesn't just work with an individual.. but also with local church families. So when looking at scripture.. it's needful to look at whether a whole local church is being addressed or not.

For eg.. (Gal 3:1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

(Gal 3:2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


(Gal 3:3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul is addressing the whole Galatian local church. This isn't about an individual 'receiving the Spirit' but when the whole Galatians church became one of God's churches.

When a church is rightly established.. the Holy Spirit will then give His presence to be 'in the midst' of the assembly. (Not a building.. but a church family).

So in Galatians.. Paul addresses the whole Galatians church.. telling them not to be infected by Jews bringing in Judaism to take them away from the system of following Jesus through New Testament service.
I think there's a balance.
The personal and the collective.

Sometimes we focus too much on the personal/experiential side of our relationship with God, and end up in the error of sensationalism and selfish spirituality,
And other times, we focus too much on the collective, and "dry up" in the sense of forgetting that first love, and that intimacy with God.

This balance plays out in many spectrums, including our view of why God sends signs and performs miracles.
It is both personal,
and collective.


As for evidence, the Fruit of the Spirit is found in Gal 5:22-23.
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
This is the manifestation of the Spirit within a Believer.

Rather than the Spirit being an event for us to experience,
He is instead the very source of the life we are to live.

Experiences are great, but the power and purpose is in the nitty gritty daily grind of life.
One can be faked and/or induced, but the other can not be faked or induced.

In this way, we are talking about a unity in the Church, and also about the personal relationship of the individual.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,947
113
#6
Fruits, of course. They are helping us grow into the image of God.

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Cor. 3:18

Signs should never be needed to grow in character and close to Jesus. Signs were to confirm Jesus was who he claimed to be. Signs were needed for the early church to spread and grow. As for signs today, I think they retard the maturation of the believer, by focusing on external things and experiences, instead of the inner qualities of the fruits and developing character.

Today, we have the riches of the Word of God, and that should be our guiding light. Not signs, which seem to be so much hype, if people who seek signs would really examine closely.
 
L

ladylynn

Guest
#7
We humans can take anything God has given us and consume it upon our own lusts. Pride is a major human problem and it is in all things we humans do unless we actively seek to recognize it and make it a goal to get rid of it each day. Human pride is what will "retard the maturation of the believer"., not the gifts that are good and profitable for the believer. Every good and perfect gift cometh from above...

I concur with this Bible commentary below about Jesus being that which is perfect coming and that being when tongues and prophecies will cease along with other gifts we will no longer need because we will have Him.






But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.Note 28 at 1Co 13:10: Some people have interpreted the "that which is perfect" in this verse as being the completed Bible. This has led them to believe that the gifts of the Spirit spoken of here (i.e., prophecy and tongues) have ceased. Although God's Word is perfect (Ps 19:7), that cannot be the "perfect thing" that is spoken of here.
In 1Co 13:12, Paul said when that which is perfect is come, we shall see face to face. This is speaking of seeing the Lord face to face, instead of vaguely as though through a dark glass, as it is now. Some might argue that this is speaking in a symbolic sense instead of literally face to face, but the next comparison in that verse says that then (when that which is perfect is come) we shall know all things even as we are also known. There is no other way to interpret that except to be describing when we stand before the Lord after this life. Then we will be face to face and know all things even as also we are known.
1Co 13:8 also says that at the time prophecies fail and tongues cease, knowledge will vanish away. That has to be talking about the next life, or the new heavens and earth, because one of the signs of the end times will be that knowledge shall increase (Da 12:4).So, the "that which is perfect" that Paul was speaking of cannot be the Bible. It has to be speaking of either our glorified bodies or Jesus at His second coming. Either way, these verses establish that until that which is perfect is come, tongues and prophecy will remain. These are valid gifts today.Note 29 at 1Co 13:10: Paul was speaking about the gifts of the Spirit, specifically prophecy and tongues. They will pass away in the new heaven and the new earth (Re 21). We will not need them.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,709
3,650
113
#8
I'll throw a bit of a wrench into the mix and say an evidence of having the Spirit is our desire to commune with Him.

Romans 8:26-27 (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Ephesians 2:18 (KJV) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 6:18 (KJV) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

1 John 1:7 (KJV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
 
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
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#9
Hopefully this thread will be more productive than the one it is 'spinning off' of.

Is the evidence of the Spirit the signs or the fruit?

We know that signs can come from even the Evil One, as they are prophesied to before the End,
Therefore, though signs can, and often do, accompany the presence of the Spirit, the TRUE evidence of the Spirit is not in signs, but in the Fruit of the Spirit.

Second issue is: are signs meant to encourage Believers, or meant to reach out to the unsaved?
The Word shows that the edifying gifts are for Believers. Sign gifts are unto, and for, the lost sheep
to bring them to the fold.
Thanks for starting the thread LT.

Definitely the fruit of the Spirit is evidence of the Spirit, but signs and gifts as in those explained by Jesus in Mark 16, and Paul in 1 Cor 12 are also true, many of us on these discussions are able to testify of that.

For me it is very comforting that I can trust all of the Word of God and not leave anything out. It does however worry me that many take portions of scripture and declare them no longer true or relevant. That is a process that could end badly once it is started. Where would a person draw the line?. Just in the things he has no experience of? Or the ones he doesn't understand? What about the things God says that he just doesn't like? Or what if we start to take issue with the word to such a place where we are actually taking issue with God? You can see my thinking on this: it is far more dangerous than the simplicity of believing and then receiving by faith a promise of God, whatever that promise might be.

I think your second issue needs deeper discussion so thank you for that opportunity. My experience of both signs and fruit is that it is primarily for the benefit of others, and the joyful consequence of that is, it blesses us when we can bless them. I apply this to tongues also, even the personal unknown kind which edifies us spiritually. Because if we are edified spiritually it means we can function better spiritually within and without the body, and others receive the benefit.

Progressing this thought, if we can function better spiritually within and without the body, we are already beginning to bear fruit: we have already begun to understand that we are not islands, and that what good things God has given us are to be given to others for their benefit.

We are all a work in progress, thank the Lord. I never want to be in any place where I have "arrived" and already know it all. This is an intimate relationship we have entered with the One Who loves us most, and thankfully that means there is a personal exchange of blessing, and an increase of spiritual function, the more we take on the yoke of Jesus.:)
 
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
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#10
We humans can take anything God has given us and consume it upon our own lusts. Pride is a major human problem and it is in all things we humans do unless we actively seek to recognize it and make it a goal to get rid of it each day. Human pride is what will "retard the maturation of the believer"., not the gifts that are good and profitable for the believer. Every good and perfect gift cometh from above...

I concur with this Bible commentary below about Jesus being that which is perfect coming and that being when tongues and prophecies will cease along with other gifts we will no longer need because we will have Him.






But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.Note 28 at 1Co 13:10: Some people have interpreted the "that which is perfect" in this verse as being the completed Bible. This has led them to believe that the gifts of the Spirit spoken of here (i.e., prophecy and tongues) have ceased. Although God's Word is perfect (Ps 19:7), that cannot be the "perfect thing" that is spoken of here.
In 1Co 13:12, Paul said when that which is perfect is come, we shall see face to face. This is speaking of seeing the Lord face to face, instead of vaguely as though through a dark glass, as it is now. Some might argue that this is speaking in a symbolic sense instead of literally face to face, but the next comparison in that verse says that then (when that which is perfect is come) we shall know all things even as we are also known. There is no other way to interpret that except to be describing when we stand before the Lord after this life. Then we will be face to face and know all things even as also we are known.
1Co 13:8 also says that at the time prophecies fail and tongues cease, knowledge will vanish away. That has to be talking about the next life, or the new heavens and earth, because one of the signs of the end times will be that knowledge shall increase (Da 12:4).So, the "that which is perfect" that Paul was speaking of cannot be the Bible. It has to be speaking of either our glorified bodies or Jesus at His second coming. Either way, these verses establish that until that which is perfect is come, tongues and prophecy will remain. These are valid gifts today.Note 29 at 1Co 13:10: Paul was speaking about the gifts of the Spirit, specifically prophecy and tongues. They will pass away in the new heaven and the new earth (Re 21). We will not need them.
Totally agree with you sis. I wonder if the kind of childlike faith that receives things because Jesus promised them is what infuriates people enough to suggest they are retarded and immature. Jesus said Matt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. I love that because it shows that in order to know anything of the Lord, we have to lay down our own pride as you say, and come humbly to Him, who will then freely give us all things...and not before.
 
L

LT

Guest
#11
I'll throw a bit of a wrench into the mix and say an evidence of having the Spirit is our desire to commune with Him.

Romans 8:26-27 (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Ephesians 2:18 (KJV) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 6:18 (KJV) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

1 John 1:7 (KJV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
This is an excellent post. The desire for communion with God.
It is a very centered point.
 
L

ladylynn

Guest
#12
Totally agree with you sis. I wonder if the kind of childlike faith that receives things because Jesus promised them is what infuriates people enough to suggest they are retarded and immature. Jesus said Matt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. I love that because it shows that in order to know anything of the Lord, we have to lay down our own pride as you say, and come humbly to Him, who will then freely give us all things...and not before.


Hi Convallaria, I've been reading your posts too and appreciating your insight and your joy in Jesus :D. I agree with you about focusing on what Jesus said about coming as children. Seeking to have a childlike faith and how a child tends to receive so much easier than an adult on matters of faith. When we try to figure out God and what He has for us only in the natural., we miss the simplicity of receiving. Much of what a child does is receive by faith. It's second nature to trust and receive from the one they know loves them and cares for them. And the wonder of it is God is pleased when we come and that is when He freely gives us all things. Without faith it is impossible to please Him.
 
Jul 1, 2015
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#13
Hi Convallaria, I've been reading your posts too and appreciating your insight and your joy in Jesus :D. I agree with you about focusing on what Jesus said about coming as children. Seeking to have a childlike faith and how a child tends to receive so much easier than an adult on matters of faith. When we try to figure out God and what He has for us only in the natural., we miss the simplicity of receiving. Much of what a child does is receive by faith. It's second nature to trust and receive from the one they know loves them and cares for them. And the wonder of it is God is pleased when we come and that is when He freely gives us all things. Without faith it is impossible to please Him.
Hi Ladylynn, Yes it looks like we are on the same wavelength: I so appreciate your posts! Amen to what you said, and maybe in answer to the original title of this thread we can say, that some of the evidence we are looking for is humility as in coming to the Lord humbly like a child, and then receiving...simply and gratefully, also like a child.

Is it perhaps one of those evidences that opens up all other evidences, like a key: if we can keep our humility, and keep coming to Him on the basis of His love for us, His mercy and His power....knowing that of ourselves we have none of those things....my feeling is that He will give us what things are good for us, as He has promised.

After all, when we were first saved it had to begin with humility: we had to recognize that we were sinners and had lost our way, needing forgiveness and cleansing, and trusting that Jesus paid the price for all our personal sin.

So if we are asking for evidence from the Lord in order to flaunt it over our brethren, or to parade about making ourselves something we are not, then of course He will not and cannot oblige, and we will be left wanting.

But if we simply come to Him as He as invited us, requesting that He will give us what He promised, and in faith knowing He is God Who longs to bless His children because He loves them....we will receive.

Praise God and God bless you sister.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#14
"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." (I Corinthians 12:31-13:13)

After not only teaching on the gifts of the Spirit, but also after having encouraged the Christians at Corinth to earnestly covet the best gifts, Paul continued on to show them a more excellent way. These Corinthians came behind in no gift (I Corinthians 1:7), yet they had all sorts of problems with their character. There were those who were carnal in that they were focusing more upon the likes of Paul, Peter and Apollos than upon Christ Himself. There was an impenitent man in their midst who was having sexual relations with his father's wife and he was left unchallenged until Paul stepped in. There were those who were provoking the Lord to jealousy be eating things sacrificed unto idols without any seeming care whatsoever in relation to how the same might have negatively affected those weak in the faith and there were those who were turning the Lord's supper into their own supper and behaving like gluttons and drunkards while eating and drinking damnation unto themselves. In his second epistle to these Corinthians, Paul had to go so far as to admonish them to examine themselves to see if they were even in the faith...yet, again, they came behind in no gift. A gift is just that: a gift. It is not a sign necessarily of character or maturity. I could give the gift of a new car to one of my underage children and they'd probably kill themselves if they sought to actually use it because they're not mature enough to do the same. Paul likened the gifts of knowledge and prophecy to "childish things" in that they will one day cease. IOW, when we appear before the Lord face to face, then what we've known in part will be replaced by greater knowledge and what has been prophesied in part will be done away with by the reality itself of being with Christ. Love, on the other hand, never fails or never ceases in that it is God's eternal law and that is a fruit of the Spirit. Yes, love surpasses even faith and hope because, again, there will come a day when neither is needed in that the One Whom we've placed our faith in will be before us in Person and the One Whom we've hoped to see in our glorified bodies will likewise be before us. With such things in mind, I'd say that the fruit of the Spirit and love especially greatly surpasses the gifts of the Spirit, but both are presently necessary.
 
Jul 1, 2015
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9
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#15
"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." (I Corinthians 12:31-13:13)

After not only teaching on the gifts of the Spirit, but also after having encouraged the Christians at Corinth to earnestly covet the best gifts, Paul continued on to show them a more excellent way. These Corinthians came behind in no gift (I Corinthians 1:7), yet they had all sorts of problems with their character. There were those who were carnal in that they were focusing more upon the likes of Paul, Peter and Apollos than upon Christ Himself. There was an impenitent man in their midst who was having sexual relations with his father's wife and he was left unchallenged until Paul stepped in. There were those who were provoking the Lord to jealousy be eating things sacrificed unto idols without any seeming care whatsoever in relation to how the same might have negatively affected those weak in the faith and there were those who were turning the Lord's supper into their own supper and behaving like gluttons and drunkards while eating and drinking damnation unto themselves. In his second epistle to these Corinthians, Paul had to go so far as to admonish them to examine themselves to see if they were even in the faith...yet, again, they came behind in no gift. A gift is just that: a gift. It is not a sign necessarily of character or maturity. I could give the gift of a new car to one of my underage children and they'd probably kill themselves if they sought to actually use it because they're not mature enough to do the same. Paul likened the gifts of knowledge and prophecy to "childish things" in that they will one day cease. IOW, when we appear before the Lord face to face, then what we've known in part will be replaced by greater knowledge and what has been prophesied in part will be done away with by the reality itself of being with Christ. Love, on the other hand, never fails or never ceases in that it is God's eternal law and that is a fruit of the Spirit. Yes, love surpasses even faith and hope because, again, there will come a day when neither is needed in that the One Whom we've placed our faith in will be before us in Person and the One Whom we've hoped to see in our glorified bodies will likewise be before us. With such things in mind, I'd say that the fruit of the Spirit and love especially greatly surpasses the gifts of the Spirit, but both are presently necessary.

I think what is so troubling is that there are some who claim to have maturity when they have not begun in the Spirit. Jesus said about the signs that follow them that believe, including tongues, and Paul spoke at greater length saying what other signs (or evidence) we may expect to see in the church of true believers. So in its simplest terms, it means that if there are no signs, then there are no believers.

Possibly some find it annoying that young and old, rich and poor, simple fishermen or intellectual lawyers all have to go the same way to receive anything from God, i.e., humbly, and that God Himself distributes to all believers severally as He will. Not being a respecter of persons, it means that it is up to God to distribute not according to the value system of man. Naturally, that will upset people who feel they have a superior entitlement but still fail to receive.

Matt 18 1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

There is no getting around this. Humility is the only way to make a start with Jesus and then to continue.

So assuming we have made a start, by coming to Him humbly, and trusting Him to have paid the price for all our sin by His death on the cross, being willing to turn from everything we know to be wrong, and asking Him to come into our hearts and into our lives and to make us new, THEN He takes up our case, washes us clean, and becomes resident in us by His Spirit.

Some time later we will see the manifestation of a gift of the Spirit, or maybe more than one, which comforts us that we are His, and is able to be used in loving service among the brethren.

Without the Holy Spirit we cannot demonstrate the love of God, because we don't know what it is. Without the mind of Christ we cannot even conceive of it. We can make a fair show of it, and there are many kinds of human love that we experience without His Spirit, but WITH His Spirit, we begin to know what the love of God feels like, selfless and sacrificial, and we begin to see what Jesus endured in order to give us that love, and what we must endure too, to a great extent.

I do not for one moment believe that when Paul speaks of putting away childish things, that he is talking about putting away the spiritual gifts. These are indispensable in the body to help us progress spiritually, as we are able to minister one to another as we all have need.

Spiritual gifts are also a demonstration and manifestation of the power of God, so you would think that if we know a fellowship has members with such genuine gifting as Paul lists before the love chapter, we can hope and trust that the power of God is there. And if we know the power of God is there, like as not we will be loved and nurtured as we would expect.

You would think that, but it isn't always that simple.

Today is not a day to be in any doubt about the warning of God , that if a congregation have the "form" of godliness, as in a religious form, but deny His power, He says, from such turn away.

So it is perfectly reasonable that we would want to be sure that the place we have chosen to worship is going to give us sound doctrine, including such doctrine which concerns any demonstration of the power of God.

It is a very sad thing that in modern society we are often so lonely and loveless that we would settle for any kind of church preaching any kind of doctrine, so long as they welcome us with open arms. An obvious example of this is the relatively modern cult of the Jehovah's witnesses...everything looks good on the outside, but when the rubber hits the road, the Holy Spirit is absent. Many are caught up in that, believing that their love is the love of God.

Dangers on both sides: going after the gifts, or going after the love.

See, Jesus said signs FOLLOW believers, not believers follow the signs, whether love ...or any demonstration of the power of God.


Faith first: God always honours it.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#16
I think what is so troubling is that there are some who claim to have maturity when they have not begun in the Spirit. Jesus said about the signs that follow them that believe, including tongues, and Paul spoke at greater length saying what other signs (or evidence) we may expect to see in the church of true believers. So in its simplest terms, it means that if there are no signs, then there are no believers.

Possibly some find it annoying that young and old, rich and poor, simple fishermen or intellectual lawyers all have to go the same way to receive anything from God, i.e., humbly, and that God Himself distributes to all believers severally as He will. Not being a respecter of persons, it means that it is up to God to distribute not according to the value system of man. Naturally, that will upset people who feel they have a superior entitlement but still fail to receive.

Matt 18 1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

There is no getting around this. Humility is the only way to make a start with Jesus and then to continue.

So assuming we have made a start, by coming to Him humbly, and trusting Him to have paid the price for all our sin by His death on the cross, being willing to turn from everything we know to be wrong, and asking Him to come into our hearts and into our lives and to make us new, THEN He takes up our case, washes us clean, and becomes resident in us by His Spirit.

Some time later we will see the manifestation of a gift of the Spirit, or maybe more than one, which comforts us that we are His, and is able to be used in loving service among the brethren.

Without the Holy Spirit we cannot demonstrate the love of God, because we don't know what it is. Without the mind of Christ we cannot even conceive of it. We can make a fair show of it, and there are many kinds of human love that we experience without His Spirit, but WITH His Spirit, we begin to know what the love of God feels like, selfless and sacrificial, and we begin to see what Jesus endured in order to give us that love, and what we must endure too, to a great extent.

I do not for one moment believe that when Paul speaks of putting away childish things, that he is talking about putting away the spiritual gifts. These are indispensable in the body to help us progress spiritually, as we are able to minister one to another as we all have need.

Spiritual gifts are also a demonstration and manifestation of the power of God, so you would think that if we know a fellowship has members with such genuine gifting as Paul lists before the love chapter, we can hope and trust that the power of God is there. And if we know the power of God is there, like as not we will be loved and nurtured as we would expect.

You would think that, but it isn't always that simple.

Today is not a day to be in any doubt about the warning of God , that if a congregation have the "form" of godliness, as in a religious form, but deny His power, He says, from such turn away.

So it is perfectly reasonable that we would want to be sure that the place we have chosen to worship is going to give us sound doctrine, including such doctrine which concerns any demonstration of the power of God.

It is a very sad thing that in modern society we are often so lonely and loveless that we would settle for any kind of church preaching any kind of doctrine, so long as they welcome us with open arms. An obvious example of this is the relatively modern cult of the Jehovah's witnesses...everything looks good on the outside, but when the rubber hits the road, the Holy Spirit is absent. Many are caught up in that, believing that their love is the love of God.

Dangers on both sides: going after the gifts, or going after the love.

See, Jesus said signs FOLLOW believers, not believers follow the signs, whether love ...or any demonstration of the power of God.


Faith first: God always honours it.
I agree with everything that you said except for the part that I highlighted in red, but, even then, I think that you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that we put away the gifts of the Spirit as "childish things" now and neither was Paul. Paul said that "when he became a man he put away childish things" and I believe that he likened this "becoming a man" to the time after Christ's return and not to any time before then.
 
Jul 1, 2015
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#17
I agree with everything that you said except for the part that I highlighted in red, but, even then, I think that you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that we put away the gifts of the Spirit as "childish things" now and neither was Paul. Paul said that "when he became a man he put away childish things" and I believe that he likened this "becoming a man" to the time after Christ's return and not to any time before then.
Thank you, then we are in agreement :)
 
Jul 1, 2015
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#18
SUMMARY
OK so now we can reflect on what we have learned during the course of this discussion on this thread and the others.
We know that the gifts of God including tongues have not ceased. We know also that tongues are not essential to salvation. We also know, however, that the Holy Spirit IS essential to salvation, because as the scripture says, he who has not the Spirit of Christ is none of His. Also John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Ok so what remains is to establish evidence on here BESIDES speaking in tongues, according to the scriptures, particularly those in Mark 16 (casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead etc.,) and those 9 gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 as follows:
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:



We also know that another sure sign of the Holy Spirit indwelling is some evidence of the fruit of the Spirit, as in Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel it is significant that those who attacked some of us for speaking in tongues have so far been unable to demonstrate either the fruit of the Spirit as above, or to testify of the gifts of the Spirit given to them by God at some point after conversion.


Now, please tell me, am I wrong to conclude that the tongue-haters, on this basis, are not born again? Because if this is the case, the broad church membership is in a very sorry state.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#19
I am not a cessationist (which believe the sign gifts to no longer be given).
I am not against speaking in tongues,
or prophecy or healing or miracles.
In fact, I EXPECT the miraculous to occur, because our God is an active and Living God.

But I do think that the FOCUS on sign gifts in many congregations, is misplaced focus.
When is the last time you witnessed someone raised from the dead?
 

James866

Junior Member
Jul 21, 2015
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#20
I haven't seen it yet, but want to not only see it, but do it as directed!