EVOLUTION IN THE BIBLE? ARE YOU KIDDING?!

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Slepsog4

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#61
Pogrud,

The only one speculating here is you. You are the one trying to redefine (ie, twist) everything that God said.

Given the rotation of the earth on its axis and revolutions of the earth around the sun, one should be able to see that a day is a day is a day when it is described as evening and morning (ie, 24 hours). The scripture also tells us that the sun, moon, and stars were to for separating day and night as well as distinguishing the seasons.

Evolution at its root simply means change. God created everything with the capacity for adaptation and variation WITHIN its own kind. The Theory of Evolution teaches that one kind can change over time into a more complex kind (a different species). This is the false idea that an amoeba can eventually become a man.

When Adam and Eve were in the Garden they could eat from the fruit trees, etc.
 
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pogrud

Guest
#62
The only one speculating here is you. You are the one trying to redefine (ie, twist) everything that God said.
If I'm twisting what is said, please give me a clear example in the bible that says things were created instantaneously, fully formed, never to change.

Given the rotation of the earth on its axis and revolutions of the earth around the sun, one should be able to see that a day is a day is a day when it is described as evening and morning (ie, 24 hours). The scripture also tells us that the sun, moon, and stars were to for separating day and night as well as distinguishing the seasons.
Yes, and we use the moon, stars and sun as such and the serve well. I don't see anything that says the day was 24 hours long, the earth spins on its axis or that it rotates around the sun. Again, it's the assumption that things couldn't possibly have changed from what we now know.

Evolution at its root simply means change. God created everything with the capacity for adaptation and variation WITHIN its own kind. The Theory of Evolution teaches that one kind can change over time into a more complex kind (a different species). This is the false idea that an amoeba can eventually become a man.
I'm being naive, but where does it state that 'God created everything with the capacity for adaptation and variation WITHIN its own kind'? Are you indicating that Micro-Evolution is in keeping with the bible?

When Adam and Eve were in the Garden they could eat from the fruit trees, etc.
Another naive question, but exactly how long after 'creation week' was Eden created?
 
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Slepsog4

Guest
#63
Pogrud,

The change you are talking about implies improvement. But God said when he finished that it was very good. Man was fully formed and functional. He had intelligence and the capacity to procreate. In these aspects the rest of creation was similar.

Micro-evolution is obvious and fitting within God's plan for variation within a kind. We have multiple variations within the human species as well as virtually every animal and plant. But these do not give rise to greater or more complex things as the Theory of Evolution would have us believe. We use this capacity for breeding and hybridization purposes.

From Gen. 1:1 to present day we have the record of human history both within scripture and without. Mankind has been here from the beginning. When Moses by inspiration recorded God's work he used language and ideas to communicate this truth. A day is a day is a day especially when described as evening and morning. The luminaries were designed to give light upon the earth and to govern night and day as well as seasons.

The Garden was specifically fashioned for Adam and Eve. The implication is that it was made very very soon after they were created.

You are looking for that which is unnecessary. The burden of proof beyond the obvious is in your corner
 
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leendert

Guest
#64
Evolution describes how organisms change over time.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Am i mistaken or does it say here God created man from dust of the ground and the breath of life. I dont see any apes in there. Its quite easy to believe in God ,not so easy to believe Him it seems. The agenda behind evolution is simple ,you dont need a Creator if you believe nothing was created.If one part of the bible is full of lies ,then can we trust it at all ?
 
Jun 18, 2009
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#65
The Genesis account is nonliteral clearly. I don't see any problem with reading it like any other creation myth and appreciating the language used. I do see a problem with denying scientific reality and accepting what amounts to an ancient story, that only attempts to explain things people of the time could not comprehend due to their lack of advancements.
 
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pogrud

Guest
#66
The Genesis account is nonliteral clearly. I don't see any problem with reading it like any other creation myth and appreciating the language used. I do see a problem with denying scientific reality and accepting what amounts to an ancient story, that only attempts to explain things people of the time could not comprehend due to their lack of advancements.
I agree. There are however a number of people who like to take everything literally and have for some reason understood evolution to rule out 'the hand of God'. Those people are welcome to take the bible literally. It's important to clarify to them what evolution is actually about rather than the garbled non-sense often touted, and how it isn't at odds with the bible.

The change you are talking about implies improvement.
Not in a 'better', more sophisticated sense, only in a 'more suited to an environment' sense. Evolution assumes the environment is also changing, so it's not always an improvement in the long term.

Micro-evolution is obvious and fitting within God's plan for variation within a kind. We have multiple variations within the human species as well as virtually every animal and plant. But these do not give rise to greater or more complex things as the Theory of Evolution would have us believe. We use this capacity for breeding and hybridization purposes.
Very few biologist or textbooks distinguish between micro and macro evolution, it's just a neat grouping for the lay person. Both are a result of the same processes because of the same causes, just on different scales. Only creationists really use the terms to indicate that they are different processes, because there is overwhelming evidence of micro evolution. If there is such a divide, where does it sit?

A day is a day is a day especially when described as evening and morning. The luminaries were designed to give light upon the earth and to govern night and day as well as seasons.
If the play of the sun on the earth were different, you could still have an evening and morning. Just as the time between sunrise to sunset varies hugely over the year and from place to place on earth. It doesn't mean that the day had to last 24 hours. Afterall, a year, 365.24 days is a great number to have been intelligently designed.

The Garden was specifically fashioned for Adam and Eve. The implication is that it was made very very soon after they were created.
Again, we're assuming we know the mind of God. There is no reason it couldn't have taken time for this to 'grow'.

Evolution describes how organisms change over time.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Am i mistaken or does it say here God created man from dust of the ground and the breath of life. I dont see any apes in there. Its quite easy to believe in God ,not so easy to believe Him it seems. The agenda behind evolution is simple ,you dont need a Creator if you believe nothing was created.If one part of the bible is full of lies ,then can we trust it at all ?
OK, so exactly how did the 'dust' change into man. It just 'jumped' from one to the other? Did God get a big mold and sculpt man? Did the dust magically turn into everything that makes up a human? The bible just doesn't explain what happened in between. Is it relevant to the story of creation?

Evolution indicates that life came from the same matter as on earth. Evolution doesn't explain the difference between inanimate matter and living organisms - this could be taken to be the 'breath of life'. Evolution could well be guided by the 'hand of God' - it doesn't state that it isn't.
 
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Slepsog4

Guest
#67
God has said what he did. He is not obligated to say what he did not do. God said and it was so. It does not say it began to develop in order to be so.

Just as Adam was created a full grown man, so also the universe was in full running order.

Only one who desires to call God a liar and make the Bible a myth would speak in the manner you do.

Scripture itself condemns the use of myth.
 
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pogrud

Guest
#68
God has said what he did. He is not obligated to say what he did not do. God said and it was so. It does not say it began to develop in order to be so.

Just as Adam was created a full grown man, so also the universe was in full running order.

Only one who desires to call God a liar and make the Bible a myth would speak in the manner you do.

Scripture itself condemns the use of myth.
That is exactly my point - it doesn't say things evolved but neither does it state that it 'magically' jumped from dust to fully formed. It just doesn't say either, all it says is there was 'dust' and this turned into 'man', it doesn't say how. As has been repeated, it's beside the point of the bible.

I assume this is your proof that man was created instantly, fully grown and that universe was as we know it today:

'And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.'

One could argue that when an architect completes their plans, they could validly say [their plans and foundations] have been been made and they are good. It doesn't necessarily indicate it was completely finished and never changing, if it did, does it include the entire of fate of humanity, all mapped out in that 'day'?

Evolution is incredible. If it were part of God's plan, why would that be a bad thing? Is there something more holy about man just 'appearing' from dust?
 
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leendert

Guest
#69
Man appearing from dust is biblical.Not impossible for God ! Having nothing explode and as a result you get everything, thats a bit far fetched ! If you go and dig up a old enough grave, guess what you will find, Just dust !
 
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Slepsog4

Guest
#70
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Genesis 2:7 -- [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.[/FONT]

Formed (Heb. yatsar): to form; to squeeze into a mold; to fashion as a potter
Man (Heb. adam): man; mankind; human; Adam
dust (Heb. aphar): dry earth
ground (Heb. adamah): land; ground; substance of the earth

There is no room for evolution here. Jesus stated that man and woman were made at the beginning. Man was a distinct creation in God's image. God molded him from dust and gave him life. He was human from the start.
 
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pogrud

Guest
#71
Man appearing from dust is biblical.Not impossible for God ! Having nothing explode and as a result you get everything, thats a bit far fetched ! If you go and dig up a old enough grave, guess what you will find, Just dust !
From 'dust' to 'man' is perfectly in keeping with the Bible AND Evolution. These are just start and end points along a journey, the Bible doesn't say how it got from one to the other - why should it? You're assuming it just jumped from one to the other without any journey in between. Evolution is just a theory for that journey. It indicates that we started from the same matter as the Earth ('Dust'), and changed along the way.

The 'Big Bang Theory' is not Evolution. However, the Bible say that God created everything. Does this mean there was something or nothing before God began creation (besides God)? Why could it not have been created with an 'Explosion' by God?

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Genesis 2:7 -- [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.[/FONT]

Formed (Heb. yatsar): to form; to squeeze into a mold; to fashion as a potter
Man (Heb. adam): man; mankind; human; Adam
dust (Heb. aphar): dry earth
ground (Heb. adamah): land; ground; substance of the earth
So you're stating that God created us as a potter would create a pot, and then blew life into us? It hinges on one word, which you've taken literally. How many other words did they have to mean create out of basic material? Is it coincidence that the potter idea is a very easy idea for anyone to understand, particularly at that time?

If a more sophisticated technical term were used, I think it likely people would have been very confused...

And the Lord God evolved man of the dust of the ground...

People would be saying 'What is this 'Evolved' word, what does it mean? I don't think any of creation business makes any sense...'. The bible would then have to detail any technical word, which would be outside of the whole point of the bible!

My point is language and our understanding of things has become more complex. For example, using the same style of English in the Bible, how would you describe the Internet? - Please try and do this!
 
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Slepsog4

Guest
#72
Pogrud,

I am not saying anything. God said it. You assume that the first generation of mankind was someone kind of moronic imbecile or that the generation who read the account written by Moses were brain dead.

Can you explain the pyramids, mummies, and other things that the Egyptians were able to do? Such was the backdrop from which Moses hailed.

Your effort to bring the internet into play won't work for anachronistic reasons. The human experience was thousands of years by the time God had Moses write the account. By the time Christ came along we're talking about thousands more. Jesus and the apostles spoke of the creation even, Adam and Eve, the Fall, the Flood, etc. as real historical events as written.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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#73
The universe provides all the evidence we need to argue it was not created. If you look at it clearly and without prejudice, you can't fail but to see how chaotic and uncaring a place it is. The universe isn't friendly towards life, it doesn't care, it has not got the capacity. Human life on our planet is further supporting this idea. If there is a benevolent guiding hand, where is it?
 
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Slepsog4

Guest
#74
Gavin,

There are none so blind as he who will not see. The Scripture challenges one to the fact the Creation itself screams the necessary existence of God. This is also why the one who asserts there is no God is a fool.

The Universe runs on amazing precision. Have you ever bothered to consider the word SYSTEM in the phrase solar system? Have you ever considered the term CYCLE in the phrase water cycle?

Such things and millions of others speak of intelligent design. The precision of our earth to support human life is truly amazing. The right kind of sun at just the right distance to neither melt or freeze us. The right blend of gases in the atmosphere for us to breath.

Those things that are truly "wrong" in our world are because of the curse brought upon it from the Fall and that havoc wrought by the Flood.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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#75
Gavin,

There are none so blind as he who will not see. The Scripture challenges one to the fact the Creation itself screams the necessary existence of God. This is also why the one who asserts there is no God is a fool..
I don't see that but i have no problem with you claiming that you do. I also don't say there "is no God", but i am perfectly happy saying "i don't believer that there is a God". :)

The Universe runs on amazing precision. Have you ever bothered to consider the word SYSTEM in the phrase solar system? Have you ever considered the term CYCLE in the phrase water cycle?.

Such things and millions of others speak of intelligent design. The precision of our earth to support human life is truly amazing. The right kind of sun at just the right distance to neither melt or freeze us. The right blend of gases in the atmosphere for us to breath..
The use of the words system and cycle are merely due to the fact that within the confines of natural forces, things fall into a certain state. It is the force of gravity that holds the planets in an orbit around the sun, but the same force of gravity that would cause an infant to be crushed by a falling tree, say. Also the cycle of water is within a closed environment, also following natural principles. There is no requirement for any guiding force to oversee these as they occur as a result of the state of the universe. Likewise, they are not friendly or perfect systems for human life.

The position of the earth is a nonargument. If it wasn't able to support life, we wouldn't be arguing the point. The fact that one little planet out of billions upon billions is in a good position to support life, is to be expected, not even remotely a miracle or evidence of a plan. If you want to get into intelligent design, please consider the failings of the human body first...then maybe you will rethink it.

Those things that are truly "wrong" in our world are because of the curse brought upon it from the Fall and that havoc wrought by the Flood.
There is no geological evidence for a global flood. :)
 
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Slepsog4

Guest
#76
Gavin,

I go to church with 3 geologists (all with master's degrees) who work for 3 different oil companies. You would be hard pressed to convince them there is no evidence for a global flood. You need to do some more homework.

Again you have failed to recognize the ramifications of the Fall.

How do you suppose these natural "principles" or laws came into play. What do you think holds them in place?
 
Jun 18, 2009
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#77
Gavin,

I go to church with 3 geologists (all with master's degrees) who work for 3 different oil companies. You would be hard pressed to convince them there is no evidence for a global flood. You need to do some more homework.
I think perhaps they do? No geologist would seriously present a case for a global flood to a gathering of their peers. I wonder where they got these qualifications and do they understand what fossils and strata are outside the things they need to know for their own industry? The fossil evidence doesn't support a global flood; tree rings don't support a global flood; ice cores don't support a global flood; the presence of fresh water fish doesn't support a global flood (they'd not exist after such a flood, but clearly they do); the existence of much vegetation doesn't support a global flood...some of these plants would have died out utterly under that much water; also, big point...there isn't enough water in the world to allow for a global flood.

Again you have failed to recognize the ramifications of the Fall.

How do you suppose these natural "principles" or laws came into play. What do you think holds them in place?
Nothing holds them in place, this is simply how they interact with each other. I'll give you an example of the lack of intelligent design. You don't need to even take my word for it. Go and look up what a gamma ray burst is, or if you already know...consider it in an intelligently designed universe.
 
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Slepsog4

Guest
#78
Gavin,

I would venture to say that you have done NO serious study of geology or fossils, ice cores, etc. from anything but secular evolutionists. You need to expand your reading. Check out the research at ICR (Institute for Creation Research).

Have you ever even read the Bible account of what happened during the Flood.

I would recommend the book by Marion Fox on the Biblical Flood. It is several hundred pages by a former college professor who now works for the FAA. You will be pleasantly surprised how much evidence there really is for the Flood. (Five F Publishing, OKC, OK)
 
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benson

Guest
#79
Pogrud,

I am not saying anything. God said it. You assume that the first generation of mankind was someone kind of moronic imbecile or that the generation who read the account written by Moses were brain dead.

Can you explain the pyramids, mummies, and other things that the Egyptians were able to do? Such was the backdrop from which Moses hailed.
I'm not claiming that people of Mose's time were lacking any sort of mental capability. My point is there is no reason for the bible to detail science, or how creation happened. The bible says man was created from 'dust'. Nothing more. At that time, the most eloquent description of what happened is 'formed'. The neatest example of a similar 'forming' from 'dust' to 'something' probably was pottery.

I don't question that many of the things done at that time were very advanced. However, over time we gain knowledge - do you agree? Since then, we've come to understand things like electromagnetism, human physiology and geology beyond that which was understood (by man) at the time the bible was written. It's not that people's capacity for understanding has changed much since then, just that knowledge of our surroundings has increased over time.

I assume you'd agree that the nature of electromagnetism, physiology and geology were also then much as they are today. The issue is, we didn't understand them as today and there is no reason for them to be included in the bible.
 
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benson

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#80
...from anything but secular evolutionists. You need to expand your reading. Check out the research at ICR (Institute for Creation Research).
What is the underlying belief of the ICR? They start off assuming that everything is created. From this assumption, all their findings will surely be biased and inevitably result in conclusions in keeping with the bible.

Likewise, if you had an Institute for Atheistic Research or Evolution Research, these findings would inevitably prove there is no god or that evolution is true.

The least biased research should be from Secular Scientists. Secular meaning no bias from ANY religion. People within such an organisation can be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, etc. It's beside the point - the research and the religion are separate. Likewise Scientist - not Evolutionist nor Creationist, primarily following the rules of Science. They could believe in either or neither, but it is not a blanket view.

By promoting research from a Creationist Research centre, you'd also say research from an Evolutionist Research centre is equally valid (for a Evolutionist) - both of which are biased. It's best to follow Secular Science, and view it in light of your own beliefs (i.e. from the Bible).
 
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