Faith and Deeds
- Thread starter biggiestomp
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E
No you did not do anything. You JUST now said the penalty was death..
so tell me. if saying a lie gets you the death penalty. if being proud results in the death penalty. If ANY SIN WHATSOEVER gives us the death penalty. that what can remove that penalty for us?? for you see, The penalty (the decree against us, what we owe God) of sin is death. It does not say the penalty is anything else. So how many death penalty does it take to separate a good person from a bad person? Does the executioner care who is good and who is not when he carries out the death penalty? No he does not. So why would you think you could ever do enough to earn salvation? One death penalty (1 sin) is enough to earn you eternal condemanation.
gal 3: 11 - 14 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
How about redemption? I a price paid by another?
om 3:20- 22..Therfore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified. For by the law is knowledge of sin. but now the rightiousness of God apart from the law is revealed being witnessed by the law and the prophets even the rightiousness of God through faith in Christ to all on on all who believe for their is no difference. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..being justified freely by the grace of God through the redemption in Christ Jesus.
or how about what paul said here?
Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
what was the certificate of debt? It can only be one thing. The penalty of sin. For that is the debt we owe God for EVERY sin we have ever commited, or will ever commit.
so tell me. if saying a lie gets you the death penalty. if being proud results in the death penalty. If ANY SIN WHATSOEVER gives us the death penalty. that what can remove that penalty for us?? for you see, The penalty (the decree against us, what we owe God) of sin is death. It does not say the penalty is anything else. So how many death penalty does it take to separate a good person from a bad person? Does the executioner care who is good and who is not when he carries out the death penalty? No he does not. So why would you think you could ever do enough to earn salvation? One death penalty (1 sin) is enough to earn you eternal condemanation.
gal 3: 11 - 14 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
How about redemption? I a price paid by another?
om 3:20- 22..Therfore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified. For by the law is knowledge of sin. but now the rightiousness of God apart from the law is revealed being witnessed by the law and the prophets even the rightiousness of God through faith in Christ to all on on all who believe for their is no difference. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..being justified freely by the grace of God through the redemption in Christ Jesus.
or how about what paul said here?
Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
what was the certificate of debt? It can only be one thing. The penalty of sin. For that is the debt we owe God for EVERY sin we have ever commited, or will ever commit.
Who was the audience?
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The audience was his beloved, those who had always obeyed. Paul was encouraging them to be likeminded in love (Php 2:2), to care for each other (Php 2:4), to have the same mind as Jesus Christ (Php 2:5), reaffirmed who Jesus Christ was (Php 2:6-11) and then Paul says to make sure that they work fully to accomplish their salvation with fear and trembling.
Work Out - G2716 - katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).
This is done though working together with God, otherwise grace is received in vain.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
Workers Together - G4903 - sunergeō
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.
Tombo what you believe shows your heart, and you are not in Christ with your derogatory remarks, I pray the Lord will pull the pride an anger from your heart, if you cannot say anything nice in our debate here then please go away to another post.
we love you enough to give you truth, but you are in great delusion.
Rom 3:4 Let it not be! But let God be true, and every man a liar; as it is written, "That You might be justified in Your sayings, and will overcome when You are judged."
we love you enough to give you truth, but you are in great delusion.
Rom 3:4 Let it not be! But let God be true, and every man a liar; as it is written, "That You might be justified in Your sayings, and will overcome when You are judged."
E
No, what is a lie is the thought that you can be good enough to earn salvation.
If you commit one sin, you are worthy of eternal condemnation. the penalty of sin is DEATH to God. Romans 3 explains it quite well. For ALL have sinned and missed the mark. No one will be good enough to earn salvation.
this is the problem with the works based crowd. they think they can be good enough. they do not understand God. they are no better than the pharisees who crucified Christ.
You cannot support what you believe because it is not in the Bible. You believe in fictions developed and taught by men.
If you knew Biblical truth then you would be able to contend for it.
Instead stick to your dogmatic errors with rhetoric and make baseless accusations.
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
If I am in error then correct me with scripture.
I have corrected you but you will not receive it because you hold your dogmatic beliefs superior to the scripture.
If you knew Biblical truth then you would be able to contend for it.
Instead stick to your dogmatic errors with rhetoric and make baseless accusations.
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
If I am in error then correct me with scripture.
I have corrected you but you will not receive it because you hold your dogmatic beliefs superior to the scripture.
E
LOL!!!
"My beloved!"They were already saved. The were alreay his SPIRITUAL brothers and sisters. They were not on the outside looking in trying to be saved.
work out what? THE RESULT OF YOUR SALVATION. WHAT YOU ALREADY POSSES. Not something you are TRYING TO EARN.
Why are you trying to put yourself back under law??
My friend if you want to try to earn salvation. feel free.
The penalty of sin is death. Paul spent many a writing showing how CHRIST removed this penalty for us, and SAVED us to do the work he created us to do.
Your trying to mix it up. and make us work to earn a gift.
The PENALTY OF SIN is DEATH, what THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE.
If Life (ressurected from death to life) is a gift. how can we ever earn it?
As paul said, are you so foolish having begun in the spirit, are you now trying to perfect it in the flesh? Have you done all these things in vein??
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Eternally grateful,
I have not said a single thing about earning salvation. It would be preferabler if you address what I actually say.
Gal 3:11 says that no-one is justified by the law in the sight of God. I agree with that, the Pharisees sought their righteousness in external works apart from a faith that works by love. They outwardly had an appearance of righteousness but were inwardly filthy.
This is why righteousness is by faith. It is inward purity as opposed to outward obligation.
You quote...
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Those are wonderful verses. The law can never make anyone righteousness, it was a schoolmaster to point people to true righteousness, to Jesus Christ.
It is through abiding in Him by a faith that works by love that we establish the law in our hearts and fulfill the righteousness therof by faith as we walk after the Spirit. It is in this way that we receive the promise of the Spirit and we are made clean through the blood of Jesus Christ as we walk in the light (1Joh 1:7).
This is the redemption from all iniquity as we are made pure which is why Jesus gave Himself for us.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Jesus was indeed cursed for us on that tree and by us crucifying our old man with Him (Rom 6:6) we are raised up with Him (Rom 6:5) and set free (Rom 6:7) and the blood of Jesus Christ purges us of all our past sins (Rom 3:25) the penalty of sin thus being nailed to the cross (Col 2:14).
Jesus suffered on our behalf most definitely. He bore our sins for sure. Yet the Bible does not say anywhere that He suffered in your place, as your substitute, so that God can forgive your sin.
Where does the Bible specifically teach that God requires someone to suffer in your place that He may forgive sin?
I have not said a single thing about earning salvation. It would be preferabler if you address what I actually say.
Gal 3:11 says that no-one is justified by the law in the sight of God. I agree with that, the Pharisees sought their righteousness in external works apart from a faith that works by love. They outwardly had an appearance of righteousness but were inwardly filthy.
This is why righteousness is by faith. It is inward purity as opposed to outward obligation.
You quote...
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Those are wonderful verses. The law can never make anyone righteousness, it was a schoolmaster to point people to true righteousness, to Jesus Christ.
It is through abiding in Him by a faith that works by love that we establish the law in our hearts and fulfill the righteousness therof by faith as we walk after the Spirit. It is in this way that we receive the promise of the Spirit and we are made clean through the blood of Jesus Christ as we walk in the light (1Joh 1:7).
This is the redemption from all iniquity as we are made pure which is why Jesus gave Himself for us.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Jesus was indeed cursed for us on that tree and by us crucifying our old man with Him (Rom 6:6) we are raised up with Him (Rom 6:5) and set free (Rom 6:7) and the blood of Jesus Christ purges us of all our past sins (Rom 3:25) the penalty of sin thus being nailed to the cross (Col 2:14).
Jesus suffered on our behalf most definitely. He bore our sins for sure. Yet the Bible does not say anywhere that He suffered in your place, as your substitute, so that God can forgive your sin.
Where does the Bible specifically teach that God requires someone to suffer in your place that He may forgive sin?
E
Think of what you just said. It is by faith that the works of love we establish the law in our heart. I agree. we can only do this by faith. And in this we can learn to be like Christ. But that is NOT the subject here is it?
But you must ask yourself this. What about the sin you committed before faith? What about the sin you commit on a daily basis? (Or do you think you have reached perfection) All these sins have the end result of death.
Then ask yourself this. How can the law save us? Only in one way. Complete 100 % adherance to the law from birth till death. Have you satisfied this requirement of the law? If you have not. Your penalty is death, and you can obey the law all you want, you will still suffer your just condemnation if you are not placed into Christ.
It is? So I and redemmed by the law through the law by obeying the law in faith? Where does scripture say this? Was Christ's death in vein? Why did he die if we could be good enough on our own in faith to fullfill the law?
Redeem us from ALL iniquity. Do you understand what the word ALL means? It means ALL SIN WE HAVE EVER COMMITTED. How does it say he redeemed us from ALL THIS SIN? He gave himself for us.
Past sin? Did Christ die only when you were saved? He died 2000 years ago my friend. If he did not pay for ALL your sin then. Any sin you commit he did not die for is yours, and you will suffer that condemnation because Christ did not suffer for it.
Look up the greek word redeemed. It means purchased. In the Greek court. A person who was redeemed of a debt had his debt paid by someone else. The word itself shows that Christ bought our freedom from the penalty of sin.
Justified is also a word which has legal ramification. The word means made righteous, or made right with God. all your penalties which have caused your penalty (death) has been forgiven, and you are made right with God. we are justified by faith in the work of Christ, not our own good deeds.
I have showed you the verses. if you can't see them. I can't help you.
Again. If you think you can make yourself right with God. you are free to believe that/. God will not remove our free will. But scripture does not teach what you are trying to show. Your taking many verses out of context. I can not do this and I poray you do not wish that I do this so I can agree with you.
But you must ask yourself this. What about the sin you committed before faith? What about the sin you commit on a daily basis? (Or do you think you have reached perfection) All these sins have the end result of death.
Then ask yourself this. How can the law save us? Only in one way. Complete 100 % adherance to the law from birth till death. Have you satisfied this requirement of the law? If you have not. Your penalty is death, and you can obey the law all you want, you will still suffer your just condemnation if you are not placed into Christ.
It is? So I and redemmed by the law through the law by obeying the law in faith? Where does scripture say this? Was Christ's death in vein? Why did he die if we could be good enough on our own in faith to fullfill the law?
Redeem us from ALL iniquity. Do you understand what the word ALL means? It means ALL SIN WE HAVE EVER COMMITTED. How does it say he redeemed us from ALL THIS SIN? He gave himself for us.
Past sin? Did Christ die only when you were saved? He died 2000 years ago my friend. If he did not pay for ALL your sin then. Any sin you commit he did not die for is yours, and you will suffer that condemnation because Christ did not suffer for it.
Look up the greek word redeemed. It means purchased. In the Greek court. A person who was redeemed of a debt had his debt paid by someone else. The word itself shows that Christ bought our freedom from the penalty of sin.
Justified is also a word which has legal ramification. The word means made righteous, or made right with God. all your penalties which have caused your penalty (death) has been forgiven, and you are made right with God. we are justified by faith in the work of Christ, not our own good deeds.
I have showed you the verses. if you can't see them. I can't help you.
Again. If you think you can make yourself right with God. you are free to believe that/. God will not remove our free will. But scripture does not teach what you are trying to show. Your taking many verses out of context. I can not do this and I poray you do not wish that I do this so I can agree with you.
T
You need to read Isaiah 53, among many, many other verses and chapters. I find it hard to believe that you two actually read the same Bible.
I apologize to the rest of the readers here when I make light of these two men, but it just baffles me that they can't see the truth right in front of their eyes.
I am convinced that they want to keep posting in order to spread their poison. They have been taught this "so called" gospel, which is no gospel at all, and they are trying to recruit others here to their wickedness. That is the thing that really irks me.
I think it would be wise if we didn't encourage them anymore. If they post anything else, we should just ignore it. We may want to answer some points for the sake of others who may be reading, but I don't think it's wise to even address them anymore as long as they propagate this teaching. They think they're crafty, acting like they want to learn, but that is the last thing they want. They want to teach this garbage to others and convert them.
May God watch over the young and weak Christians here. May they NEVER trust in themselves for salvation, but look fully to You as their all in all. Amen.
Tom
I apologize to the rest of the readers here when I make light of these two men, but it just baffles me that they can't see the truth right in front of their eyes.
I am convinced that they want to keep posting in order to spread their poison. They have been taught this "so called" gospel, which is no gospel at all, and they are trying to recruit others here to their wickedness. That is the thing that really irks me.
I think it would be wise if we didn't encourage them anymore. If they post anything else, we should just ignore it. We may want to answer some points for the sake of others who may be reading, but I don't think it's wise to even address them anymore as long as they propagate this teaching. They think they're crafty, acting like they want to learn, but that is the last thing they want. They want to teach this garbage to others and convert them.
May God watch over the young and weak Christians here. May they NEVER trust in themselves for salvation, but look fully to You as their all in all. Amen.
Tom
I don't see where they trust in themselves?
Does this verse not support them:
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
It goes hand in hand you must accept Salvation, the price of one sin is death, the only way to be saved is through Yahshua the Messiah, his blood covers your sin.
Someone that trusts in themselves, rejects Salvation and denies Yahshua is the Messiah.
And claims they have kept the Law and will obtain Salvation from their own works....
These men do not claim this, from what I have seen.
The price of sin was death, and to be forgiven you must accept the Messiah for he is the sacrfice offering to pardon our sins.
Eternally Grateful,
You talk about complete 100% adherence to the law but are missing what I am saying completely.
Paul wrote...
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
We fulfill the righteous requirements of the law when we walk after the Spirit.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
That is what it means to walk by faith. It is not about following a list of do's and don'ts as that is legalism. It is about walking with a pure heart by a faith that works by love. When the heart is pure the natural result will be good fruit. The reason why Jesus came was to teach us this, to teach us how to be purified by a genuine faith as well as to offer Himself up as a propitiation for our past sins.
You use rhetoric to say that "future sins" are forgiven when the Bible specifically states "past sins." God deals with us in the present and when we come to Him in true repentance and faith, having forsaken our rebellion, He then raises us up by His power and forgives us our past sins.
We are the living sacrifice on the mercy seat being purified by the sprinkling of the blood. That is what the Bible teaches. One cannot enter into the Holy of Holies in a filthy state, one must first cleanse themselves (Jas 4:8-10). We must leave the pig pen before God will raise us to newness of life.
When one is walking in purity by a faith that works by love the law is established in the heart (Rom 3:31). This is how faith purifies the heart (Act 15:9), it is through abiding in Jesus Christ as His word makes us clean (Joh 15:3-4).
Jesus purchased us with His blood that we may abide with Him, being a living sacrifice and renewing our minds daily.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Redemption - G629 - apolutrōsis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.
Look at the above scriptures carefully. We are justified (counted righteous) freely by the graciousness of God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
We MUST be in Christ Jesus.
Jesus taught that we must abide in Him.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Abide is in the present perfect tense in the Greek and it means a continued state of being. It is not something simply done in the past which carries over to the present, it has to be continually applied.
Abide - G3306 - menō
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.
This means we have to do what Jesus commanded.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Asserting such things is not self righteousness. It is not trying to save oneself apart from God. I am not taking anything out of context and I can support everything I say right from the Bible.
Those are the plain teaching of Jesus Christ.
Jesus nowhere taught that salvation is by simply trusting in what He did or would do on the cross. Nowhere is anything like that taught. Yet people believe it because it is "easy." It sounds good, it means they don't have to completely crucify their old man, they can still sin here and there and use grace as a cover.
It is a very dangerous satanic deception and it will doom a soul to perdition of those who believe it.
Many will stand before Jesus and they will cry Lord Lord and be rejected. They are not rejected because they obeyed God from their heart, they are rejected because they were still workers of iniquity despite their outward good works. Their hearts were never purified because they never came intot he faith through a genuine repentance and faith.
They came in another way and had on another road and when the Lord of the feast came he had them cast out into outer darkness.
You talk about complete 100% adherence to the law but are missing what I am saying completely.
Paul wrote...
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
We fulfill the righteous requirements of the law when we walk after the Spirit.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
That is what it means to walk by faith. It is not about following a list of do's and don'ts as that is legalism. It is about walking with a pure heart by a faith that works by love. When the heart is pure the natural result will be good fruit. The reason why Jesus came was to teach us this, to teach us how to be purified by a genuine faith as well as to offer Himself up as a propitiation for our past sins.
You use rhetoric to say that "future sins" are forgiven when the Bible specifically states "past sins." God deals with us in the present and when we come to Him in true repentance and faith, having forsaken our rebellion, He then raises us up by His power and forgives us our past sins.
We are the living sacrifice on the mercy seat being purified by the sprinkling of the blood. That is what the Bible teaches. One cannot enter into the Holy of Holies in a filthy state, one must first cleanse themselves (Jas 4:8-10). We must leave the pig pen before God will raise us to newness of life.
When one is walking in purity by a faith that works by love the law is established in the heart (Rom 3:31). This is how faith purifies the heart (Act 15:9), it is through abiding in Jesus Christ as His word makes us clean (Joh 15:3-4).
Jesus purchased us with His blood that we may abide with Him, being a living sacrifice and renewing our minds daily.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Redemption - G629 - apolutrōsis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.
Look at the above scriptures carefully. We are justified (counted righteous) freely by the graciousness of God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
We MUST be in Christ Jesus.
Jesus taught that we must abide in Him.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Abide is in the present perfect tense in the Greek and it means a continued state of being. It is not something simply done in the past which carries over to the present, it has to be continually applied.
Abide - G3306 - menō
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.
This means we have to do what Jesus commanded.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Asserting such things is not self righteousness. It is not trying to save oneself apart from God. I am not taking anything out of context and I can support everything I say right from the Bible.
Those are the plain teaching of Jesus Christ.
Jesus nowhere taught that salvation is by simply trusting in what He did or would do on the cross. Nowhere is anything like that taught. Yet people believe it because it is "easy." It sounds good, it means they don't have to completely crucify their old man, they can still sin here and there and use grace as a cover.
It is a very dangerous satanic deception and it will doom a soul to perdition of those who believe it.
Many will stand before Jesus and they will cry Lord Lord and be rejected. They are not rejected because they obeyed God from their heart, they are rejected because they were still workers of iniquity despite their outward good works. Their hearts were never purified because they never came intot he faith through a genuine repentance and faith.
They came in another way and had on another road and when the Lord of the feast came he had them cast out into outer darkness.
A
sometimes Tom its just easier to give them what they ask for...
the key is the word PROpitiation
Romans 3:25
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Hebrews 9
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Colossians 2:13-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
there are more verses of course but I have to run....
the key is the word PROpitiation
Romans 3:25
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Hebrews 9
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Colossians 2:13-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
there are more verses of course but I have to run....
E
All I can do is tell you what God said. He said we are saved by the law (100% adherence to) or we suffer death. there is no in between. It is satan who is trying to lie to tell us we can fall short of this mark (romans 3: 23) and somehow be made right with God by at some point in our life making up for our wrongs by
1. Being good
2. Doing religious deeds or sacraments
3. Anything other than faith in Christ.
I am not misunderstanding what you are saying. People have been saying it since cain and abel walked the earth. Cain tried to use human good to make God look at him. God rejected his human good, and because of it, cain killed abel out of his anger. Religion was born, and man has been trying to get right with God his own way since. What you teach is nothing new my friend.
who is US? It is those saved by faith. Those born again into the kingdom of God. It is NOT those who are still trying to be saved, but are still dead in Christ.
Again, I ask you to look at context. Who is us.
What gives life? John 6. It is the spirit who gives life. the words I speak are spirit and they are life.
What are his words? Whoever eats his flesh and blood. what is he talking about here? His death. He is going to die. this death in payment for our sin. Do you believe him. or do you not?
Whoever believes me will never die, be raised on the last day. Be given eternal life. Never hunger or thirst. What more can be said. Jesus said it all right here.
WE! Those born again. Those who HAVE eternal life. Not those who are dead in christ looking for life. Again you have context totally destroyed. Paul is telling those of us who ARE saved by faith how to live a righteous life. To look to the spirit. not the law. for the law brings death. But the spirit brings life. Sin not only has consequence of death, but it also has consequence of the effect of sin. This consequence is not removed by Christs death, but is not eternal in nature. it is the death we recieve in this life as a result of sin. God wants to give us life, if we want to see this life while we walk on the earth, we have to do what he asks. If not, we will be chastened by him, and suffer the result of that sin.
A child who sins against his parent is still going to recieve his just punishment, but he is still a child. Paul is talking to children of God. Not those who are still trying to become his children.
You don't understand. Yes this is how we walk by faith and live the life God wants to give us and be blessed by him. But this is not how one gets saved.
It becomes legalism when your trying to be made right with God by doing these things. Your teaching the very thing you deny teaching. By saying one is purified (made right with God) by being good and doing the things of the law, when in fact we are saved by faith. and then and ONLY THEN, can we learn to fulfill the law in our hearts. And unbeliever, those dead to Christ can not do this. The things of God are foolishness to them, they can not understand.
Rhetoric? Christ died before I commited my first sin. he died for future sin because all of my sin was future when he died. He either paid for all of them, or some of them, if he only paid for some of them. I am doomed. Because I will suffer for the sins he did not pay for. My punishment is death.
Yes he died for past sin too. But not mine, I never sinned before he died. When jesus said "it is finished" did he mean it? or do we have to add to what he did?
Thats the problem I CAN NOT CLEANSE MYSELF. If I could Christ would not have had to come. John makes it clear. If we say we have no sin (speaking to Christians) we decieve ourselves and truth is not in us. You thinking you can purify yourself is wrong. You can only be purified by blood. Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness. There is a reason God accepted Abel's sacrifice of blood, and rejected cains human good sacrifice of good works. Good deeds can not remove sin, And we can never be made pure by doing good deeds, and we will never be righteous enough to be pure in the sight of God until we pass from this earth. What your asking us to do is impossible, for anyone.
Jesus said something else that should scare you to death.
there will be many who in that day say God God did we not do all these works in your name. Jesus said he will declare to them depart from me for I NEVER KNEW YOU.
Who is he talking to? Those born again by faith? Or those trying to earn salvation by works?
Those who are born by faith understand they practice sin, and are in complete agreement with God. Those who try to earn it also practice sin. the difference is they are trying to work of their debt by being good, or doing some religious deed.
he is speaking about people who believe like you do my friend.
We are saved, born again and in Christ. or we are dead in trespasses and sin. There is no in-between.
Those saved HAVE eternal life. According to your belief, no one can have eternal life. we can only hope to earn it before we die, and pray once we get it we do not lose it (which means it was never eternal to begin with) either way, it makes God and his word a lie.
1. Being good
2. Doing religious deeds or sacraments
3. Anything other than faith in Christ.
I am not misunderstanding what you are saying. People have been saying it since cain and abel walked the earth. Cain tried to use human good to make God look at him. God rejected his human good, and because of it, cain killed abel out of his anger. Religion was born, and man has been trying to get right with God his own way since. What you teach is nothing new my friend.
who is US? It is those saved by faith. Those born again into the kingdom of God. It is NOT those who are still trying to be saved, but are still dead in Christ.
Again, I ask you to look at context. Who is us.
What gives life? John 6. It is the spirit who gives life. the words I speak are spirit and they are life.
What are his words? Whoever eats his flesh and blood. what is he talking about here? His death. He is going to die. this death in payment for our sin. Do you believe him. or do you not?
Whoever believes me will never die, be raised on the last day. Be given eternal life. Never hunger or thirst. What more can be said. Jesus said it all right here.
WE! Those born again. Those who HAVE eternal life. Not those who are dead in christ looking for life. Again you have context totally destroyed. Paul is telling those of us who ARE saved by faith how to live a righteous life. To look to the spirit. not the law. for the law brings death. But the spirit brings life. Sin not only has consequence of death, but it also has consequence of the effect of sin. This consequence is not removed by Christs death, but is not eternal in nature. it is the death we recieve in this life as a result of sin. God wants to give us life, if we want to see this life while we walk on the earth, we have to do what he asks. If not, we will be chastened by him, and suffer the result of that sin.
A child who sins against his parent is still going to recieve his just punishment, but he is still a child. Paul is talking to children of God. Not those who are still trying to become his children.
You don't understand. Yes this is how we walk by faith and live the life God wants to give us and be blessed by him. But this is not how one gets saved.
It becomes legalism when your trying to be made right with God by doing these things. Your teaching the very thing you deny teaching. By saying one is purified (made right with God) by being good and doing the things of the law, when in fact we are saved by faith. and then and ONLY THEN, can we learn to fulfill the law in our hearts. And unbeliever, those dead to Christ can not do this. The things of God are foolishness to them, they can not understand.
Rhetoric? Christ died before I commited my first sin. he died for future sin because all of my sin was future when he died. He either paid for all of them, or some of them, if he only paid for some of them. I am doomed. Because I will suffer for the sins he did not pay for. My punishment is death.
Yes he died for past sin too. But not mine, I never sinned before he died. When jesus said "it is finished" did he mean it? or do we have to add to what he did?
Thats the problem I CAN NOT CLEANSE MYSELF. If I could Christ would not have had to come. John makes it clear. If we say we have no sin (speaking to Christians) we decieve ourselves and truth is not in us. You thinking you can purify yourself is wrong. You can only be purified by blood. Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness. There is a reason God accepted Abel's sacrifice of blood, and rejected cains human good sacrifice of good works. Good deeds can not remove sin, And we can never be made pure by doing good deeds, and we will never be righteous enough to be pure in the sight of God until we pass from this earth. What your asking us to do is impossible, for anyone.
Jesus said something else that should scare you to death.
there will be many who in that day say God God did we not do all these works in your name. Jesus said he will declare to them depart from me for I NEVER KNEW YOU.
Who is he talking to? Those born again by faith? Or those trying to earn salvation by works?
Those who are born by faith understand they practice sin, and are in complete agreement with God. Those who try to earn it also practice sin. the difference is they are trying to work of their debt by being good, or doing some religious deed.
he is speaking about people who believe like you do my friend.
We are saved, born again and in Christ. or we are dead in trespasses and sin. There is no in-between.
Those saved HAVE eternal life. According to your belief, no one can have eternal life. we can only hope to earn it before we die, and pray once we get it we do not lose it (which means it was never eternal to begin with) either way, it makes God and his word a lie.
The animals were sacrificed again and again for sin, Christ was a one time sin offering for the sins of the world!
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God) purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
He wasnt a substitute for our sins, but died on our behalf, not IN our place.
He canot be our example and substitute at the same time.
This article by Brother Mike will straighten this out for you, please consider what you are saying, the whole council of God does not teach imputation, in any way, shape or form.
Surely He has borne our grief And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. Isa53:4
Was it Necessary for Jesus to Suffer the Wrath of God and be Punished for sin by Becoming Sin? Since the Ten and Eleventh Centuries this has been taught as mainstream doctrine in the Christian Churches. Isaiah 53 is used as a Stronghold to support the doctrine. But NOTHING in Scripture Shows or implies that Jesus had to ‘Become Sin’ in order to offer His blood in remission of sin.
Translators in the 1600’s molded this teaching into their interpretation of 2Cor5:21,
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
But this Same expression for ‘sin’ is used over 100 times throughout scripture, in the Hebrew Bible written in Greek called the: Septuagint. A Concordance Search of this Bible will show many passages, including Isa53:10, as ‘SIN OFFERING’ Never ‘Becoming sin!’ In the New Testament this is confirmed in such passages as Heb9:14, the Word is translated Sin offering, or Offered Himself. There is a BIG Difference between becoming sin and Offering yourself for sin and it spells the difference between a True and False Doctrine of Redemption!
Christ could NOT have Became sin and then Offered Himself ‘WITHOUT’ Spot to God. (Heb9:14) The animal or victim in the Leviticus sacrifice did not Become sin, it was Offered for Sin. No Transfer was necessary to Remit the Wrong Doing. The Wrong Doing is remitted on virtue of the Blood offering.
(Without the shedding of blood there is no remission, Heb9:22) AND the Reconciliation that takes place at the Mercy Seat. (Heb9:5, 10:19-22) In the CLEARING of the Wrong Doing!
“Let us Draw Near with a True Heart in full assurance of Faith, having our hearts sprinkled from a evil conscience and our bodies washed in Pure water!”
The Scriptural Illustration of Forgiveness has Nothing to do with a Transfer or Wrath being poured out:
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant revealed God’s Manner of Granting Pardon, Matt18:22-35
The Servant owes a debt he cannot pay (SIN) He is about to be cast into Prison and Punished. (HELL)
He approached the Master (GOD) Begs Him for Mercy (In Reconciliation) The Master Grants him Pardon on pure virtue of Mercy, NO One had to PAY his debt, No One had to Suffer his penalty and No One had to Take his Place! He was Pardoned on CONDITION that he upheld his end of the Bargain stuck in the Reconciliation. Violate the agreement (by failing to forgive his fellow servant) and he forfeits the Gift. If his debt had been Paid in Advance (as is being taught today) HOW Could he had been accountable for it again after he violated his agreement?
Had Jesus actually became Sin and Drank the Cup of God’s Wrath, as the false doctrine suggests, then the Provision is a Done Deal. Past, Present and Future sins are already forgiven, the Suffering is taken care of on the Cross (thus no need for us to Repent suffering godly sorrow for sin!) And there is no Further Wrath to be Poured out on mankind, since it has already been done on Jesus. Those who will be Saved (Chosen, elected) will come, the others are eternal damned. This is EXACTLY Why Repentance (if mentioned at all) included no Clearing of Wrong or effort to make reconciliation with God. The Person is ‘Saved’ and keeps right on sinning because Jesus Paid his penalty in advance.
Isaiah is showing that WE ESTEEMED Him Stricken, Isa53:4. This is What Man Considered that God did to Christ, NOT what was Actually Done! In our Eyes He Suffered God’s Punishment. In Reality He Suffered Un-justly at the hand of sinful men. God allowed this to happen in order that the Blood of Christ (the perfect Lamb) Could be Offered as remission of sin. As that Lamb, (Victim) Christ gave Himself to this Process, suffered as a sinner (although He had never sinned or became sin) Died and Rose again.
Now On Condition of our Reconciliation to God through the process of Repentance (stopping of sin!) We can Share in this Death, Die to Sin (the passions and desires of the flesh) and be Raised with Him to NEWNESS of Life! Restored to Obedience and Favor with God. That’s Grace!
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be (sin offering) for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2Cor5:20-21
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Heb8:10
Under the Lie, you Merely TRUST it’s all be Done for you and you’re forgiven in your sins. The Virtue of His Sacrifice is Transferred to you by faith and God no longer sees you as a sinner, even though you remain vile in your heart. The Purpose of this Redemption is a RESTORATION Of Favor and an Appeasement for Past Sins. In Order that you may Serve God Acceptably with Reverence and godly fear! (Heb12:28)
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God) purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
He wasnt a substitute for our sins, but died on our behalf, not IN our place.
He canot be our example and substitute at the same time.
This article by Brother Mike will straighten this out for you, please consider what you are saying, the whole council of God does not teach imputation, in any way, shape or form.
We Esteemed Him Stricken!
Surely He has borne our grief And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. Isa53:4
Was it Necessary for Jesus to Suffer the Wrath of God and be Punished for sin by Becoming Sin? Since the Ten and Eleventh Centuries this has been taught as mainstream doctrine in the Christian Churches. Isaiah 53 is used as a Stronghold to support the doctrine. But NOTHING in Scripture Shows or implies that Jesus had to ‘Become Sin’ in order to offer His blood in remission of sin.
Translators in the 1600’s molded this teaching into their interpretation of 2Cor5:21,
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
But this Same expression for ‘sin’ is used over 100 times throughout scripture, in the Hebrew Bible written in Greek called the: Septuagint. A Concordance Search of this Bible will show many passages, including Isa53:10, as ‘SIN OFFERING’ Never ‘Becoming sin!’ In the New Testament this is confirmed in such passages as Heb9:14, the Word is translated Sin offering, or Offered Himself. There is a BIG Difference between becoming sin and Offering yourself for sin and it spells the difference between a True and False Doctrine of Redemption!
Christ could NOT have Became sin and then Offered Himself ‘WITHOUT’ Spot to God. (Heb9:14) The animal or victim in the Leviticus sacrifice did not Become sin, it was Offered for Sin. No Transfer was necessary to Remit the Wrong Doing. The Wrong Doing is remitted on virtue of the Blood offering.
(Without the shedding of blood there is no remission, Heb9:22) AND the Reconciliation that takes place at the Mercy Seat. (Heb9:5, 10:19-22) In the CLEARING of the Wrong Doing!
“Let us Draw Near with a True Heart in full assurance of Faith, having our hearts sprinkled from a evil conscience and our bodies washed in Pure water!”
The Scriptural Illustration of Forgiveness has Nothing to do with a Transfer or Wrath being poured out:
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant revealed God’s Manner of Granting Pardon, Matt18:22-35
The Servant owes a debt he cannot pay (SIN) He is about to be cast into Prison and Punished. (HELL)
He approached the Master (GOD) Begs Him for Mercy (In Reconciliation) The Master Grants him Pardon on pure virtue of Mercy, NO One had to PAY his debt, No One had to Suffer his penalty and No One had to Take his Place! He was Pardoned on CONDITION that he upheld his end of the Bargain stuck in the Reconciliation. Violate the agreement (by failing to forgive his fellow servant) and he forfeits the Gift. If his debt had been Paid in Advance (as is being taught today) HOW Could he had been accountable for it again after he violated his agreement?
Had Jesus actually became Sin and Drank the Cup of God’s Wrath, as the false doctrine suggests, then the Provision is a Done Deal. Past, Present and Future sins are already forgiven, the Suffering is taken care of on the Cross (thus no need for us to Repent suffering godly sorrow for sin!) And there is no Further Wrath to be Poured out on mankind, since it has already been done on Jesus. Those who will be Saved (Chosen, elected) will come, the others are eternal damned. This is EXACTLY Why Repentance (if mentioned at all) included no Clearing of Wrong or effort to make reconciliation with God. The Person is ‘Saved’ and keeps right on sinning because Jesus Paid his penalty in advance.
Isaiah is showing that WE ESTEEMED Him Stricken, Isa53:4. This is What Man Considered that God did to Christ, NOT what was Actually Done! In our Eyes He Suffered God’s Punishment. In Reality He Suffered Un-justly at the hand of sinful men. God allowed this to happen in order that the Blood of Christ (the perfect Lamb) Could be Offered as remission of sin. As that Lamb, (Victim) Christ gave Himself to this Process, suffered as a sinner (although He had never sinned or became sin) Died and Rose again.
Now On Condition of our Reconciliation to God through the process of Repentance (stopping of sin!) We can Share in this Death, Die to Sin (the passions and desires of the flesh) and be Raised with Him to NEWNESS of Life! Restored to Obedience and Favor with God. That’s Grace!
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be (sin offering) for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2Cor5:20-21
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Heb8:10
Under the Lie, you Merely TRUST it’s all be Done for you and you’re forgiven in your sins. The Virtue of His Sacrifice is Transferred to you by faith and God no longer sees you as a sinner, even though you remain vile in your heart. The Purpose of this Redemption is a RESTORATION Of Favor and an Appeasement for Past Sins. In Order that you may Serve God Acceptably with Reverence and godly fear! (Heb12:28)
NOT as the CHIEF of Sinners and Romans 7 Wretch as Your Pastor is Teaching!
T
These guys are hardened in their sin of self-justification and salvation. Many of us here have repeatedly shown them the sin of their unbelief and self-righteouness from the scriptures, but they refuse to submit to God's word and humble themselves. They teach that Jesus was an "example" for us and not our true sin bearer and savior. They are just like the Jews of the Old Testament who tried observing the law and relied on circumcision, etc. to become right with God, but their heart was far from God.
All we can do is pray for them and maintain the truth where needed for the sake of others who may be reading their warped, damnable teachngs and heresy. It's plain to see that they have been deceived and deceive. We've shown them verses from the Bible, but they copy and paste a book by one of their teachers as proof of their position. It's clear they are trying to lure people to read these heretical techings, that's why they do these things.
Keep fighting, my brothers and sisters, for the pure truth of salvation by grace, through faith in our Lord Jesus ALONE, and not by any works of our own.
God bless.
Tom
All we can do is pray for them and maintain the truth where needed for the sake of others who may be reading their warped, damnable teachngs and heresy. It's plain to see that they have been deceived and deceive. We've shown them verses from the Bible, but they copy and paste a book by one of their teachers as proof of their position. It's clear they are trying to lure people to read these heretical techings, that's why they do these things.
Keep fighting, my brothers and sisters, for the pure truth of salvation by grace, through faith in our Lord Jesus ALONE, and not by any works of our own.
God bless.
Tom
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