Faith AND Works

[Oneoff]

Let us consider the relationship to a Christian’s life, of both the ‘Gift’ and the ‘Prize’, because thereupon, IMO, lies the resolution of that old chestnut of Faith versus Works.

The Christian life is not comprised of one or the other, but of a proper understanding of ‘both’.

Put simply, God speaks, and it is the response of faith/belief that is accounted for the righteousness that brings with it the ‘gift’ of Eternal Life. (John 3:16 and Hebrews 11)

The Christian’s life thereon gets cluttered with things that, on the one hand are likened to 'wood, hay, or stubble' and, on the other hand, are likened to 'gold, silver, or precious stones' (1 Corinthians 3:12).
(Those metaphors are used because of their relationship to the purifying fire of Christ's Judgement Seat, after which the purified man of faith is fitted for ‘Eternal Life’ in God's New Jerusalem.)

But prior to the ‘Judgement seat of Christ’, comes the 1000year Millennial Reign; participation in which is not a ‘gift’ but is a ‘prize’ to be lost or won according to the ‘works’ that a person might have built upon his foundation of faith (I Corinthians 3:12-21).

We must see to it that most of the things that we add to our life of ‘Faith’ are likened to 'gold, silver, or precious stones' rather than ‘wood, hay, or stubble’.... (and there is nothing like the occasional 'spring clean' to make sure that our life of Faith is 'spick and span'). God, and God alone, finally decides how much of each, characterises our life of faith.
And so it is that the ‘man of faith’ is finally purified and saved to Eternal Life, “yet so as through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15).

However, prior to the Judgement seat of Christ, our life is in the ‘Kingdom’, about which the so much of the apostolic writings are concerned (Matthew 4:23 plus many others).

The ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ is all about our preparation to ‘rule’ as priests, with Christ as King.
We prepare ourselves for that ‘rule’ during our life prior to the first resurrection, and those who are accounted sufficiently worthy to attain are “blessed and holy” (Revelation 20:4). That is ‘The Prize’, and it is there to be lost or won (1 Corinthians 9:24-27).

It is not until after the second resurrection (Revelation 20:5) that we are purified for entry into God's New Jerusalem; which final state is the ‘Gift of Life Eternal’.

At least that is what I am inclined to believe.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Greetings Oneoff,

But prior to the ‘Judgement seat of Christ’, comes the 1000year Millennial Reign; participation in which is not a ‘gift’ but is a ‘prize’ to be lost or won according to the ‘works’ that a person might have built upon his foundation of faith (I Corinthians 3:12-21).

It is important to understand that the Judgment that we as believers belonging to the church, that we will be judged after the resurrection and catching away, which takes place at the Bema seat of Christ and that not for sin but for works, whether good or bad. The result of this is that we either receive reward for the good works that we have done or we suffer lose of reward, but we are not judged for sin, because we have already been forgiven for those through Christ and they are not remembered. That being said, those who are resurrected and are caught up are not judged at the end of the 1000 years. In fact Scripture says, "blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power over them." That statement would immediately infer that anyone who is not apart of the first resurrection that the second death does have power over. It is those of whom the Scripture says, "But the rest of the dead did not come to life until after the thousand years had ended" as being the ones who take part in the great white throne judgment, which takes place at the end of the thousand years.

Those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years, their spirits/souls are being let out of Hades (Rev.20:13) where they will have been in torment in flame waiting for the great white throne judgment and will at that time receive resurrected bodies. Hades Where they are being resurrected out of, is the same place that the rich man of "Lazarus and the rich man" went to and was in torment in flame (Luke 16:19). True believers will have already been resurrected over a thousand years prior to this resurrection and therefore, they are not judged at that judgment. In fact regarding those in Christ Scripture says, "do you not know that the saints will judge the world" and "do you not know that we will judge angels?"

The reason that those people do not come to life prior to the thousand years is because they are the unrighteous dead who are not worthy of partaking in the first resurrection. Regarding them Scripture says:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." (Rev.20:12)

In the Scripture above, those books that are being opened contain all of the sins "every idle word that men shall speak" that those unrighteous dead will have committed in each of their lives and will be held accountable for and that because they have no covering for their sins, no savior. As a result anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

 

[dcontroversal]

Let us consider the relationship to a Christian’s life, of both the ‘Gift’ and the ‘Prize’, because thereupon, IMO, lies the resolution of that old chestnut of Faith versus Works.

The Christian life is not comprised of one or the other, but of a proper understanding of ‘both’.

Put simply, God speaks, and it is the response of faith/belief that is accounted for the righteousness that brings with it the ‘gift’ of Eternal Life. (John 3:16 and Hebrews 11)

The Christian’s life thereon gets cluttered with things that, on the one hand are likened to 'wood, hay, or stubble' and, on the other hand, are likened to 'gold, silver, or precious stones' (1 Corinthians 3:12).
(Those metaphors are used because of their relationship to the purifying fire of Christ's Judgement Seat, after which the purified man of faith is fitted for ‘Eternal Life’ in God's New Jerusalem.)

But prior to the ‘Judgement seat of Christ’, comes the 1000year Millennial Reign; participation in which is not a ‘gift’ but is a ‘prize’ to be lost or won according to the ‘works’ that a person might have built upon his foundation of faith (I Corinthians 3:12-21).

We must see to it that most of the things that we add to our life of ‘Faith’ are likened to 'gold, silver, or precious stones' rather than ‘wood, hay, or stubble’.... (and there is nothing like the occasional 'spring clean' to make sure that our life of Faith is 'spick and span'). God, and God alone, finally decides how much of each, characterises our life of faith.
And so it is that the ‘man of faith’ is finally purified and saved to Eternal Life, “yet so as through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15).

However, prior to the Judgement seat of Christ, our life is in the ‘Kingdom’, about which the so much of the apostolic writings are concerned (Matthew 4:23 plus many others).

The ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ is all about our preparation to ‘rule’ as priests, with Christ as King.
We prepare ourselves for that ‘rule’ during our life prior to the first resurrection, and those who are accounted sufficiently worthy to attain are “blessed and holy” (Revelation 20:4). That is ‘The Prize’, and it is there to be lost or won (1 Corinthians 9:24-27).

It is not until after the second resurrection (Revelation 20:5) that we are purified for entry into God's New Jerusalem; which final state is the ‘Gift of Life Eternal’.

At least that is what I am inclined to believe.

Jesus and verb tense teach clearly that we are currently possessing eternal life......it is the spirit that has been born again of God's Spirit and he imparts spiritual life Immediately upon belief.......Something that has been BORN is ALIVE!

 

[atwhatcost]

Greetings Oneoff,



It is important to understand that the Judgment that we as believers belonging to the church, that we will be judged after the resurrection and catching away, which takes place at the Bema seat of Christ and that not for sin but for works, whether good or bad. The result of this is that we either receive reward for the good works that we have done or we suffer lose of reward, but we are not judged for sin, because we have already been forgiven for those through Christ and they are not remembered. That being said, those who are resurrected and are caught up are not judged at the end of the 1000 years. In fact Scripture says, "blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power over them." That statement would immediately infer that anyone who is not apart of the first resurrection that the second death does have power over. It is those of whom the Scripture says, "But the rest of the dead did not come to life until after the thousand years had ended" as being the ones who take part in the great white throne judgment, which takes place at the end of the thousand years.

Those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years, their spirits/souls are being let out of Hades (Rev.20:13) where they will have been in torment in flame waiting for the great white throne judgment and will at that time receive resurrected bodies. Hades Where they are being resurrected out of, is the same place that the rich man of "Lazarus and the rich man" went to and was in torment in flame (Luke 16:19). True believers will have already been resurrected over a thousand years prior to this resurrection and therefore, they are not judged at that judgment. In fact regarding those in Christ Scripture says, "do you not know that the saints will judge the world" and "do you not know that we will judge angels?"

The reason that those people do not come to life prior to the thousand years is because they are the unrighteous dead who are not worthy of partaking in the first resurrection. Regarding them Scripture says:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." (Rev.20:12)

In the Scripture above, those books that are being opened contain all of the sins "every idle word that men shall speak" that those unrighteous dead will have committed in each of their lives and will be held accountable for and that because they have no covering for their sins, no savior. As a result anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

You start all this with "it is important to understand." I read the rest. I still don't get why that is important to understand when it comes to how we should then live now -- in faith and works?" Can you help me understand why that is important to understand?

 

[Oneoff]

Greetings Oneoff,



It is important to understand that the Judgment that we as believers belonging to the church, that we will be judged after the resurrection and catching away, which takes place at the Bema seat of Christ and that not for sin but for works, whether good or bad. The result of this is that we either receive reward for the good works that we have done or we suffer lose of reward, but we are not judged for sin, because we have already been forgiven for those through Christ and they are not remembered. That being said, those who are resurrected and are caught up are not judged at the end of the 1000 years. In fact Scripture says, "blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power over them." That statement would immediately infer that anyone who is not apart of the first resurrection that the second death does have power over. It is those of whom the Scripture says, "But the rest of the dead did not come to life until after the thousand years had ended" as being the ones who take part in the great white throne judgment, which takes place at the end of the thousand years.

Those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years, their spirits/souls are being let out of Hades (Rev.20:13) where they will have been in torment in flame waiting for the great white throne judgment and will at that time receive resurrected bodies. Hades Where they are being resurrected out of, is the same place that the rich man of "Lazarus and the rich man" went to and was in torment in flame (Luke 16:19). True believers will have already been resurrected over a thousand years prior to this resurrection and therefore, they are not judged at that judgment. In fact regarding those in Christ Scripture says, "do you not know that the saints will judge the world" and "do you not know that we will judge angels?"

The reason that those people do not come to life prior to the thousand years is because they are the unrighteous dead who are not worthy of partaking in the first resurrection. Regarding them Scripture says:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." (Rev.20:12)

In the Scripture above, those books that are being opened contain all of the sins "every idle word that men shall speak" that those unrighteous dead will have committed in each of their lives and will be held accountable for and that because they have no covering for their sins, no savior. As a result anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

As with all of us you may be partly right. In my experience the eschatological theories that we hold originate from our favoured denomination. For my part I no longer acquiesce to any denomination and my eschalogical theories are no more than 'inclinations' (see my signature line).

 

[Ahwatukee]

As with all of us you may be partly right. In my experience the eschatological theories that we hold originate from our favoured denomination. For my part I no longer acquiesce to any denomination and my eschalogical theories are no more than 'inclinations' (see my signature line).

Neither do I belong to any denomination, which is good because I am not swayed by them. I have always done my own studies, which is where I make my claims from and which is why I always provide Scripture with anything that I say. I come to my conclusions by cross referencing Scripture and word studies. In these last days discernment is not just about knowing right from wrong, but knowing right from almost right. It has become like a razors edge. The reason that we have so many interpretations of Scripture is because Satan is alive and well on planet earth.

 

[dcontroversal]

Neither do I belong to any denomination, which is good because I am not swayed by them. I have always done my own studies, which is where I make my claims from and which is why I always provide Scripture with anything that I say. I come to my conclusions by cross referencing Scripture and word studies. In these last days discernment is not just about knowing right from wrong, but knowing right from almost right. It has become like a razors edge. The reason that we have so many interpretations of Scripture is because Satan is alive and well on planet earth.

and because people ignore verb tense, context, regurgitate what they always have been taught and or what their great grand pappy believed etc...........

 

[atwhatcost]

Wait! I really do get not being swayed by churches' doctrines if they don't match with scripture, but does that mean skip church all together for both of you (Oneoff and Ahwatukee) who won't go there either?

It's one thing to disagree with a church doctrine here and there. It's another thing to skip spending time with the bros, simply because of that.

I cannot go to church, simply because I physically cannot. But I'm fully aware of how much I'm missing from my bros, how much I'm missing of rubbing elbows, how much I'm missing in learning because I cannot go.

It sounds like you two will not go. Am I reading this right?

 

[atwhatcost]

Neither do I belong to any denomination, which is good because I am not swayed by them. I have always done my own studies, which is where I make my claims from and which is why I always provide Scripture with anything that I say. I come to my conclusions by cross referencing Scripture and word studies. In these last days discernment is not just about knowing right from wrong, but knowing right from almost right. It has become like a razors edge. The reason that we have so many interpretations of Scripture is because Satan is alive and well on planet earth.

Never mind. You cannot answer my question because you think no one will catch on to you learned what you think is "important" from something other than scripture. If you start with that one, I stop trusting you to tell the truth. You're off the hook in explaining what's "important."

 

[Ahwatukee]

and because people ignore verb tense, context, regurgitate what they always have been taught and or what their great grand pappy believed etc...........

You are correct sir!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Never mind. You cannot answer my question because you think no one will catch on to you learned what you think is "important" from something other than scripture. If you start with that one, I stop trusting you to tell the truth. You're off the hook in explaining what's "important."

Was I not responding to "oneoff"? I didn't even attempt to answer your question, nor do I know what it is. so I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Wait! I really do get not being swayed by churches' doctrines if they don't match with scripture, but does that mean skip church all together for both of you (Oneoff and Ahwatukee) who won't go there either?

It's one thing to disagree with a church doctrine here and there. It's another thing to skip spending time with the bros, simply because of that.

I cannot go to church, simply because I physically cannot. But I'm fully aware of how much I'm missing from my bros, how much I'm missing of rubbing elbows, how much I'm missing in learning because I cannot go.

It sounds like you two will not go. Am I reading this right?

Now to answer your question, my work schedule was 11:30pm to 8:00am during the week and on Saturday and Sunday I worked two twelve hour shifts from 8am to 8pm, therefore, I was not able to attend any Saturday or Sunday church gatherings. Furthermore, in case you haven't noticed, the churches that I am seeing out there, many of them have distorted the word of God teaching that we as believers are in some sense still under the law, that end time events have already taken place and that we are currently living in the millennial period, that Paul was a false apostle and a liar, that Jesus resurrection was spiritual and not bodily, etc., etc. Should the Lord lead me to a place to gather with others, then I'll surely go for the fellowship. But in the mean time, I study his word and pray multiple times a day and continue to apply God's word to my life. By the way, one of continual prayers is that God would lead me to friends and fellowship, opportunities for every kind of good works and opportunity to testify regarding his Son and to share his word. Right now, these posting sites are all that I have as fellowship and even here it is obvious as to how much division there is among believers.

 

[Willie-T]

Now to answer your question, my work schedule was 11:30pm to 8:00am during the week and on Saturday and Sunday I worked two twelve hour shifts from 8am to 8pm, therefore, I was not able to attend any Saturday or Sunday church gatherings. Furthermore, in case you haven't noticed, the churches that I am seeing out there, many of them have distorted the word of God teaching that we as believers are in some sense still under the law, that end time events have already taken place and that we are currently living in the millennial period, that Paul was a false apostle and a liar, that Jesus resurrection was spiritual and not bodily, etc., etc. Should the Lord lead me to a place to gather with others, then I'll surely go for the fellowship. But in the mean time, I study his word and pray multiple times a day and continue to apply God's word to my life. By the way, one of continual prayers is that God would lead me to friends and fellowship, opportunities for every kind of good works and opportunity to testify regarding his Son and to share his word. Right now, these posting sites are all that I have as fellowship and even here it is obvious as to how much division there is among believers.

My wife and I worked almost every weekend for 12 years, yet we found it rather easy to locate a church that met on Thursday nights.

 

[Oneoff]

I cannot go to church, simply because I physically cannot. But I'm fully aware of how much I'm missing from my bros, how much I'm missing of rubbing elbows, how much I'm missing in learning because I cannot go.

It sounds like you two will not go. Am I reading this right?

In the testimonies board I posted the following:-
"I now make it my practice to attend whichever is the nearest church to wherever God places me from time to time (provided of course that they will accept me into full fellowship without demanding formal acquiescence to any man made criteria beyond that which makes me a member of the Body of Christ)"

 

[dcontroversal]

My wife and I worked almost every weekend for 12 years, yet we found it rather easy to locate a church that met on Thursday nights.

You know there are those who would say that is heretical.......not me though Any day is an acceptable day to worship God!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

we must remember the variances of the gift and the prize.

first, is that a prize is not a gift, and a gift is not a prize. they are two totally different things.

This gift is freely given, and must be received in faith (in the giver)

The prize is the reward for the hard work and sacrifice one made to earn the prize.

One who has not received the gift, can not earn any reward. no matter what "works of God" they would do.

One who has received the gift. will earn rewards for alowing the work of God in their lives.

and finally, No one can ever earn the gift (it would require perfect obedience to the law from Birth) as as scripture says, all have sinned and fall short.

Yet even if we are saved by faith in the gift. Sadly many may stand in front of the bema seat and see much of their works burned as wood hey and straw, and have nothing to show for their lives in Christ, Yet as paul said, still be saved, even though as through fire.

 

[atwhatcost]

Now to answer your question, my work schedule was 11:30pm to 8:00am during the week and on Saturday and Sunday I worked two twelve hour shifts from 8am to 8pm, therefore, I was not able to attend any Saturday or Sunday church gatherings. Furthermore, in case you haven't noticed, the churches that I am seeing out there, many of them have distorted the word of God teaching that we as believers are in some sense still under the law, that end time events have already taken place and that we are currently living in the millennial period, that Paul was a false apostle and a liar, that Jesus resurrection was spiritual and not bodily, etc., etc. Should the Lord lead me to a place to gather with others, then I'll surely go for the fellowship. But in the mean time, I study his word and pray multiple times a day and continue to apply God's word to my life. By the way, one of continual prayers is that God would lead me to friends and fellowship, opportunities for every kind of good works and opportunity to testify regarding his Son and to share his word. Right now, these posting sites are all that I have as fellowship and even here it is obvious as to how much division there is among believers.

"Was?" And now?

And if all your looking for is a church that agrees on your version of End Times (which tends to skip the Bible all together), then your right. There is no purpose in going.

There is also no purpose in trusting you for any answers. I seek God, not End Times. You did answer my question. Apparently the right version of End Times trumps faith or works.

 

[atwhatcost]

My wife and I worked almost every weekend for 12 years, yet we found it rather easy to locate a church that met on Thursday nights.

Wow! I wonder if that's a geographical thing. Around here, it's usually Wednesday nights (or days for the folks who work nights), with an occasional Tuesday Night. I've never hear of Thursday night gatherings. Cool!

 

[atwhatcost]

In the testimonies board I posted the following:-
"I now make it my practice to attend whichever is the nearest church to wherever God places me from time to time (provided of course that they will accept me into full fellowship without demanding formal acquiescence to any man made criteria beyond that which makes me a member of the Body of Christ)"

Not the same thing. Seems like my easy answer for how to deal with my family -- I only have to face them once in a while, so I can easily get along with them on occasion.

To me, along with worshiping God and learning more about him as a way of fellowshipping, the hardest thing I had to learn in a church was how to love the bros. (Since you're new, let me just add I call all of God's children's bros, just because I'm too lazy to keep typing "and sisses". I also don't know the plural of sis. I'm even fine if you call me a bro. lol) Many people rub me the wrong way. Despite that some of them are still my bros, so I take that as an opportunity to rub elbows with them so that love God gives us rubs off with practice.

As you can probably tell, people still rub me the wrong way, but if I don't have to deal with them week to week or even day to day, all I do is dismiss them. Without a church it's become a lot easier for me to dismiss. Not good, but that's also something seriously missing because I simply can't.

Doctrine is also important. I know me. Without an anchor any little "brilliant" thought I have a God becomes my own personal doctrine. No oversight, no fellowship, no grounding with the bros and we have 5 billion different versions of god. My church (and I call it my church even not being able to go to it, because it is the people I trust in to follow God's word instead of any flight of fancy) is cessationist. I'm not. (I also, deep down, don't think they are either, but that's another long involved story already told once on here, so I'll skip it.) Cessationism isn't that big a deal. I mean it's important, and if they were true cessationists, as in they thought teaching, evangelism and wisdom were really done for today, I wouldn't belong to that church, but that's also something of why I don't believe they are deep down. BUT even if they disagree with me about tongues doesn't change the important parts about God and salvation. So, I don't think we have to agree with all doctrines of any given church, but it's important to belong to a church who believes in the God of the Bible and works at following his lead.

By skipping all that, I think you do yourself a disservice and you do a disservice to other bros who need you. As a church we're supposed to build up, exhort, encourage, and even at time, discourage one another. If we're all alone that is seriously missing.

 

[Oneoff]

Not the same thing. Seems like my easy answer for how to deal with my family -- I only have to face them once in a while, so I can easily get along with them on occasion.

Hi Lynn,
It takes ages to really get to know other members on a new forum and, so far, I’m enjoying the ‘journey’, so let’s not spoil it with unnecessary antagonism.
I’m liking what I’m reading about you despite the gentle ‘brush off’ that you give to those who visit your ‘profile’ for the purpose of learning more about you.
The only other way is to keep an open mind as we gradually learn more about what makes each other tick from successive postings.
I too am somewhat cessationist (like the church which you mention), but being a ‘moderate’, it is only in certain matters.
For example I tend that way in respect of ‘tongues’ simply because, many years ago, during my army National Service, I was billeted with three Pentecostalists who persuaded me to let them lay hands on me so that I could receive the ‘Baptism in the Spirit’. I had a totally open mind about the matter but, despite their increasingly fervent endeavours (during which they were speaking in tongues) nothing seemed to happen.
I now incline to the view that receiving the gift of tongues is not essential evidence as to whether or not one is ‘Baptised in the Spirit’ (but as in all things I try to keep an open mind in respect of what others believe).