Faith without works is dead

[KennethC]

The fruits of the Spirit is related to our being transformed into his image, the on-gong process of being made holy. As we go from faith to faith the nature of God is being imputed to us. It is the process of the new man in Christ displacing the old nature. We should not apply our works as aids to salvation. As I said before, our good works should be done to glorify God and by them we are also building up our treasures in heaven. We should not be counting on them as aids to obtain or maintain salvation, because then you are again right back working for it. My position is the same as Paul's:

"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Again though those things Jesus said and commanded to do are not our works.......

I know some want to see it that way because it requires us to physically do something, but still it is works of the faith by the Lord who commanded it to be done to inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 25 shows 3 parables where all people in those parables believe Jesus to be their Lord, but only part of them get eternal life; Only 5 of the virgins, all but 1 of the servants, and only the sheep.

Why do the others get sent to eternal death/eternal punishment/outer darkness ???

It does not say because they had no faith, the 5 foolish virgins did not prepare, the servant squandered what was given to him and did not act on it, and the goats did not walk in love.

Professing Jesus as your Lord by mouth is not enough if deeds in the faith do not follow.

Matthew 15:8
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Just professing to believe is not enough as the scriptures say demons believe also and tremble, because they know they are not going to get salvation. Titus 1:16 is another place that shows just professing by mouth is not enough if your deeds/works do not prove your faith also, which is what James is pointing out.

A true faith is an active faith full of the fruits of the Spirit, and those fruits will guide our actions !!!

 

[KennethC]

​I don't think we are to continually to grieve the Spirit, in fact it says not to grieve the Spirit. If you do you might want to pray about it. That is what this OSAS crap does it gives us the false assumption that no mater what we do we are ok with god. The same with the rapture, Everything will Just go away, No tribulation, no testimony in tribulation. If we want to be like Jesus we have to be like Jesus, He was our example for all times.People are going to come to the end and just be clueless as to what the lord is doing in the world. I don't think God throws us away at every mistake. I have Children and Children Grow, what was once acceptable is now not God treats us like that. We had fathers in the flesh that chastised us according to their will, but we have a heavenly Father that disciplines us for his and our prophet.We are like students that should be in graduate school but are in the second grade. The only reason I feel this committed is that when I got saved I had a first love that carried me and gave me joy and faith that some how I've lost and I think God is giving it back. I don't remember the vs. but it goes like this..."How many of you saw the temple in it's first glory", and all the older people start to cry. Then they give to the Lord and get all fired up. overwhelmingly. WE have to wake up out if our sleep and Christ will give us light. Come out from among her and be not partakers of her sins. We are so locked into the world. We live like it , think like it consomme like it, Watch it's Weekly gladiator games. Build our big homes ,or try,Our religion is all neat and tidy, not to interfere to much in our lives. We don't know the scripture. Half the scripture on here is misquoted, misunderstood,many time use by our pride to exalt us above others, sometimes we have something from the lord and please share that. I just have to get this out or I'll be held accountable. Probably cause a fire storm ,I hope not. Whats wrong with serving God with all you heart and strength? Look to Acts what was their first love like? I'm afraid we are neither hot nor cold but lukewarm. I almost died a few weeks ago. I had kidney failure , my blood reading were death written all over, but God brought me through the Doc calls it a miracle. Then in a nursing home and seeing all the elderly dying and lonely ,confused Without hope.It had an effect on me.There is no time to wait . Now is the accepted time , now is the day of salvation. If you think about it tommorrow never really comes, It's always today.And today is the accepted time , when we here his voice. Bless you all

Thank you for your testimony as I also dealt with kidney failure and liver failure to, and after 3 months on dialysis God healed me and brought my kidneys and liver back to normal.

The doctors were amazed and said they have never seen somebody come back that fast, and there are very few they say do come back from it.

God bless !!!

 

[mailmandan]

Again you are taking a scripture with the word "believe" in it, and leaving it at just that, but the Lord again said those who believe in Him are those that "does what He said."

But there is a difference between believing in Him/trusting in Him for salvation and doing what He said/obedience/good works afterwards. Faith is believing in Him and obedience which follows is works.

Again you are using the example of Acts 10 that has already been talked about, and it is not to be used as the common example of the receiving of the Holy Spirit. The Lord gave those Gentiles the Holy Spirit first to prove to the Jews we have the same right to salvation through the Lord as they do.

AND they were saved when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (repentance unto life) and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). Notice in Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. *Not after water baptism.

The main standard of receiving the Holy Spirit is what Apostle Peter said in Acts 2:38.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. I see the main standard in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9; 19:2; Ephesians 1:13. Scripture must harmonize with Scripture. Your interpretation of Acts 2:38 does not trump these verses.

I am not saying we are saved by works as again that is a faulty argument, what I said and always say is that those works in the faith are proof of a true saving faith.

Yes, PROOF of a true saving faith, not the means of a true saving faith.

How can you say you are truly saved if you are disobedient to His teachings ??? You can't !!!

If we are truly saved, then we will demonstrate it by our works. We show our faith by our works. Water baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to saving faith as all works must be. Water baptism is for believers, and believers are saved the moment they believe before water baptism, for the Bible says believe and be saved (Luke 8:12); He who believes in Him is not condemned.. (John 3:18); All that believe are justified from all things.. (Acts 13:39); They received the same gift (Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17); before water baptism (Acts 10:43-47); Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31). This does not remove good works/acts of obedience from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration/salvation.

 

[KennethC]

But there is a difference between believing in Him/trusting in Him for salvation and doing what He said/obedience/good works afterwards. Faith is believing in Him and obedience which follows is works.

AND they were saved when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (repentance unto life) and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). Notice in Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. *Not after water baptism.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. I see the main standard in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9; 19:2; Ephesians 1:13. Scripture must harmonize with Scripture. Your interpretation of Acts 2:38 does not trump these verses.

Yes, PROOF of a true saving faith, not the means of a true saving faith.

If we are truly saved, then we will demonstrate it by our works. We show our faith by our works. Water baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to saving faith as all works must be. Water baptism is for believers, and believers are saved the moment they believe before water baptism, for the Bible says believe and be saved (Luke 8:12); He who believes in Him is not condemned.. (John 3:18); All that believe are justified from all things.. (Acts 13:39); They received the same gift (Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17); before water baptism (Acts 10:43-47); Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31). This does not remove good works/acts of obedience from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration/salvation.

First point) No there is no difference in believing/trusting in the Lord for salvation, and doing what He said.
They go hand and hand as Apostle James and Apostle John both were pointing out, and Apostle Paul also by speaking constantly on walking by the Spirit (fruits).

You can not have one without the other, or it is just a false profession of faith !!!


2nd point) Again instead of admitting the purpose of Acts 10-15 you try and work around and then throw in Ephesians 1:13. Another scripture with the word "believe" in it that you still refuse to admit a true faith is an active faith, as believing in the Lord entails doing what He said.


3rd point) Even though I already showed this to you once, Acts 3:19 says the same thing as Acts 2:38 and does speak on both clauses of repentance and baptism in the Lord (water immersion/baptizo). I will do it again in case you did not see it the first time. Again color coded as to what corresponds to one another:

(2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 3:19 does not do away with the baptism mentioned in Acts 2:38 as I have just showed you, and again here we go Acts 10-15 and Ephesians 1:13 does not trump Acts 2:38, Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Luke 13:3.

Acts 19:2 does not say these people received the Holy Spirit when they believed.
Go read that chapter again as it shows again the standard that Peter mentioned in Acts 2:38, as it was not tell after they were baptized in Acts 19:5 that they received the Holy Spirit in Acts 19:6.


Final point) You can not be saved until you have repented of and received remission for your sins, and been born again by water and Spirit. The standard from Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:2-6 shows the baptism in the Lord, which is done by immersion in water is done before the Holy Spirit is given.

If you want to continue to misuse Acts 10-15 to override the teachings of the Lord and Apostle Peter then that is your choice, but I caution you on doing so as misplacing/misusing the words can and will be dangerous as God Himself pointed out.

 

[Jackson123]

First point) No there is no difference in believing/trusting in the Lord for salvation, and doing what He said.
They go hand and hand as Apostle James and Apostle John both were pointing out, and Apostle Paul also by speaking constantly on walking by the Spirit (fruits).

You can not have one without the other, or it is just a false profession of faith !!!


2nd point) Again instead of admitting the purpose of Acts 10-15 you try and work around and then throw in Ephesians 1:13. Another scripture with the word "believe" in it that you still refuse to admit a true faith is an active faith, as believing in the Lord entails doing what He said.


3rd point) Even though I already showed this to you once, Acts 3:19 says the same thing as Acts 2:38 and does speak on both clauses of repentance and baptism in the Lord (water immersion/baptizo). I will do it again in case you did not see it the first time. Again color coded as to what corresponds to one another:

(2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 3:19 does not do away with the baptism mentioned in Acts 2:38 as I have just showed you, and again here we go Acts 10-15 and Ephesians 1:13 does not trump Acts 2:38, Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Luke 13:3.

Acts 19:2 does not say these people received the Holy Spirit when they believed.
Go read that chapter again as it shows again the standard that Peter mentioned in Acts 2:38, as it was not tell after they were baptized in Acts 19:5 that they received the Holy Spirit in Acts 19:6.


Final point) You can not be saved until you have repented of and received remission for your sins, and been born again by water and Spirit. The standard from Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:2-6 shows the baptism in the Lord, which is done by immersion in water is done before the Holy Spirit is given.

If you want to continue to misuse Acts 10-15 to override the teachings of the Lord and Apostle Peter then that is your choice, but I caution you on doing so as misplacing/misusing the words can and will be dangerous as God Himself pointed out.

do you believe the thief on the cross go to baptism before to paradise?

 

[KennethC]

do you believe the thief on the cross go to baptism before to paradise?

The thief on the cross is an example of last minute death bed confession, and mercy shown by the Lord in those situations.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the standard a believer who has lived their whole life, or at least a good portion of it in belief is commanded to do.

Even Apostle Paul says to not use examples such as that for a reason to be disobedient to the Lord's commands, as disobedience is called sin of unbelief in God's word. (Read Hebrews)

 

[mailmandan]

(First point) No there is no difference in believing/trusting in the Lord for salvation, and doing what He said.

Yes there is. The very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation, we are saved (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31). Believers do what He says after they have been saved through faith BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved. You are confusing the ROOT of salvation - FAITH with the FRUIT of salvation - MULTIPLE ACTS OF OBEDIENCE/GOOD WORKS which follow. Believers do what He says because they believe/trust in Him.

They go hand and hand as Apostle James and Apostle John both were pointing out, and Apostle Paul also by speaking constantly on walking by the Spirit (fruits).

Here is how they go hand in hand. Faith is the ROOT and obedience/good works are the FRUIT of salvation. NO fruit at all would demonstrate there is NO root. Believers walk by the Spirit and produce fruits BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved. Lost unbelievers do not walk by the Spirit or produce good fruit.

You can not have one without the other, or it is just a false profession of faith !!!

Faith without works is dead (James 2:14-20), yet we are still NOT saved by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). If someone says/claims they have faith but they have no works (to back up their claim), then they have an empty profession of faith, a dead faith says James. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith in Christ, but they are not the essence of faith and they are not the means of our salvation. You seem to have trouble making that critical balance.

(2nd point) Again instead of admitting the purpose of Acts 10-15 you try and work around and then throw in Ephesians 1:13. Another scripture with the word "believe" in it that you still refuse to admit a true faith is an active faith, as believing in the Lord entails doing what He said.

I don't deny that true faith is an active faith, but it's not the actions/works that follow which save us. It's faith in Christ that saves us. It's you who is trying to work around the crystal clear truth in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9. I see that you also disregarded Ephesians 1:13. It truly amazes me to see how everything that I explained to you in post #97 (and other posts) just went right over your head.

(3rd point) Even though I already showed this to you once, Acts 3:19 says the same thing as Acts 2:38 and does speak on both clauses of repentance and baptism in the Lord (water immersion/baptizo). I will do it again in case you did not see it the first time. Again color coded as to what corresponds to one another:

(2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Again, as I already explained to you in post #97, In Acts 3:19, Peter makes no reference to baptism, but links forgiveness of sins to repentance. So does Luke in Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. In Mark 1:15, we read repent and believe the gospel. Converted is not baptism just as believe the gospel is not baptism. Your argument is a desperate attempt to get around the truth and accommodate your biased theology.

Acts 3:19 does not do away with the baptism mentioned in Acts 2:38 as I have just showed you,

You showed me nothing, except your desperate attempt to get around the truth. There is NO reference to baptism in Acts 3:19 and water baptism FOLLOWS repentance unto life/believes in Him/believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved/received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). How long will you continue to fight the truth?

and again here we go Acts 10-15 and Ephesians 1:13 does not trump Acts 2:38, Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Luke 13:3.

These verses do not trump each other. There are no contradictions in God's Word. You just misinterpreted these verses on baptism, just as Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites do as well. Believes in Him/hearts purified by faith/received the gift of the Holy Spirit/sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit when we believe the gospel PRECEDES WATER BAPTISM, as we plainly see in Acts 10-15; Ephesians 1:13.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

In Matthew 28:19-20, we have a command by Jesus to make disciples of all nations, and then baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is necessary for salvation. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision made by the believer BEFORE they get water baptized. Water baptism does not magically make you become a disciple. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. This is what we are saved FOR.

Acts 19:2 does not say these people received the Holy Spirit when they believed.

Paul clearly stated in verse 2 - "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" *Not when you were baptized.

Go read that chapter again as it shows again the standard that Peter mentioned in Acts 2:38, as it was not tell after they were baptized in Acts 19:5 that they received the Holy Spirit in Acts 19:6.

This was not the same standard as Acts 2:38. Where did Peter include the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38? After Paul asked them in verse 2 if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed, their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. They had not even heard there is a Holy Spirit! Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to signify their inclusion into the church. The delay of receiving the Holy Spirit also took place in Acts 8 with the Samaritans, but this was not the normal standard for all. This was a transitional period in which confirmation by the apostles was necessary to verify the inclusion of a new group of people into the church. Because of the animosity that existed between Jews and Samaritans, it was essential for the Samaritans to receive the Spirit in the presence of the leaders of the Jerusalem church for the purpose of maintaining a unified church. Now compare Acts 10:45 - ..the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles with Acts 2:38 ..the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:47 - they received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism. ​The standard is clear.

Final point) You can not be saved until you have repented of and received remission for your sins, and been born again by water and Spirit. The standard from Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:2-6 shows the baptism in the Lord, which is done by immersion in water is done before the Holy Spirit is given.

We receive remission for our sins when we repent and believe in Him BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). Luke 24:47 points out "repentance and remission of sins. Acts 11:17 said they received the same gift (Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, described as repentance unto life. When we repent we change our mind and believe the gospel. Repentance and faith are inseparable in receiving salvation. Where you have one you must have the other. Not so with water baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel BUT NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED.

If you want to continue to misuse Acts 10-15 to override the teachings of the Lord and Apostle Peter then that is your choice, but I caution you on doing so as misplacing/misusing the words can and will be dangerous as God Himself pointed out.

If you want to continue to misuse Acts 2:38 to override the teachings of the Lord (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) and Peter (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9) and Paul (Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) then that is your choice, but I caution you on doing so as misplacing/misusing the words can and will be dangerous as God Himself pointed out. *Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony* You can say that you don't teach salvation by works all you want, but your statements (starting with water baptism) prove otherwise.

 

[mailmandan]

The thief on the cross is an example of last minute death bed confession, and mercy shown by the Lord in those situations.

In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. Being crucified as a thief, blasheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus is not the fruit of repentance/faith, but moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the standard a believer who has lived their whole life, or at least a good portion of it in belief is commanded to do.

We are all saved by different standards? Does God grade on a curve? Now how many good works did that thief accomplish on the cross in those final moments before he died? If the thief would have been allowed to live, you would have seen a changed life in the thief demonstrated by good works, but the point is that he was saved through faith, apart from whatever works he may have accomplished later.

Even Apostle Paul says to not use examples such as that for a reason to be disobedient to the Lord's commands, as disobedience is called sin of unbelief in God's word.

Nobody is promoting disobedience, but the point is that you could never be "obedient enough" to earn your salvation. We are not saved by good works, but FOR good works. Accomplishing a lifetime of obedience to the Lord's commands would be a manifestation of our faith (fruit, not the root of saving faith) and not the origin of it. If someone died the same day that they genuinely placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (like the thief on the cross) and was unable to accomplish a lifetime of obedience to the Lord's command's, they still had faith in Christ for salvation and will be saved. You couldn't say that they did not accomplish these multiple acts of obedience to the Lord's commands and faith "is" in essence these multiple acts of obedience to the Lord's commands, so they did not have faith.

 

[KennethC]

Yes there is. The very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation, we are saved (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31). Believers do what He says after they have been saved through faith BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved. You are confusing the ROOT of salvation - FAITH with the FRUIT of salvation - MULTIPLE ACTS OF OBEDIENCE/GOOD WORKS which follow. Believers do what He says because they believe/trust in Him.

Here is how they go hand in hand. Faith is the ROOT and obedience/good works are the FRUIT of salvation. NO fruit at all would demonstrate there is NO root. Believers walk by the Spirit and produce fruits BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved. Lost unbelievers do not walk by the Spirit or produce good fruit.

Faith without works is dead (James 2:14-20), yet we are still NOT saved by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). If someone says/claims they have faith but they have no works (to back up their claim), then they have an empty profession of faith, a dead faith says James. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith in Christ, but they are not the essence of faith and they are not the means of our salvation. You seem to have trouble making that critical balance.

I don't deny that true faith is an active faith, but it's not the actions/works that follow which save us. It's faith in Christ that saves us. It's you who is trying to work around the crystal clear truth in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9. I see that you also disregarded Ephesians 1:13. It truly amazes me to see how everything that I explained to you in post #97 (and other posts) just went right over your head.

Again, as I already explained to you in post #97, In Acts 3:19, Peter makes no reference to baptism, but links forgiveness of sins to repentance. So does Luke in Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. In Mark 1:15, we read repent and believe the gospel. Converted is not baptism just as believe the gospel is not baptism. Your argument is a desperate attempt to get around the truth and accommodate your biased theology.

You showed me nothing, except your desperate attempt to get around the truth. There is NO reference to baptism in Acts 3:19 and water baptism FOLLOWS repentance unto life/believes in Him/believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved/received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). How long will you continue to fight the truth?

These verses do not trump each other. There are no contradictions in God's Word. You just misinterpreted these verses on baptism, just as Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites do as well. Believes in Him/hearts purified by faith/received the gift of the Holy Spirit/sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit when we believe the gospel PRECEDES WATER BAPTISM, as we plainly see in Acts 10-15; Ephesians 1:13.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

In Matthew 28:19-20, we have a command by Jesus to make disciples of all nations, and then baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is necessary for salvation. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision made by the believer BEFORE they get water baptized. Water baptism does not magically make you become a disciple. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. This is what we are saved FOR.

Paul clearly stated in verse 2 - "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" *Not when you were baptized.

This was not the same standard as Acts 2:38. Where did Peter include the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38? After Paul asked them in verse 2 if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed, their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. They had not even heard there is a Holy Spirit! Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to signify their inclusion into the church. The delay of receiving the Holy Spirit also took place in Acts 8 with the Samaritans, but this was not the normal standard for all. This was a transitional period in which confirmation by the apostles was necessary to verify the inclusion of a new group of people into the church. Because of the animosity that existed between Jews and Samaritans, it was essential for the Samaritans to receive the Spirit in the presence of the leaders of the Jerusalem church for the purpose of maintaining a unified church. Now compare Acts 10:45 - ..the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles with Acts 2:38 ..the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:47 - they received the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism. ​The standard is clear.

We receive remission for our sins when we repent and believe in Him BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). Luke 24:47 points out "repentance and remission of sins. Acts 11:17 said they received the same gift (Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, described as repentance unto life. When we repent we change our mind and believe the gospel. Repentance and faith are inseparable in receiving salvation. Where you have one you must have the other. Not so with water baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel BUT NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED.

If you want to continue to misuse Acts 2:38 to override the teachings of the Lord (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) and Peter (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9) and Paul (Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) then that is your choice, but I caution you on doing so as misplacing/misusing the words can and will be dangerous as God Himself pointed out. *Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony* You can say that you don't teach salvation by works all you want, but your statements (starting with water baptism) prove otherwise.

You use a lot of words making long posts that end up doing nothing but still denying the truth.

I clearly showed you how "be converted" in Acts 3:19 is the same as "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ" in Acts 2:38.

You still denied it because you want to see the exact word "baptize", but those exact words are not what is always used in all cases. For we are converted into one of His disciples by baptism !!!

Acts 19:2 is posed as a question not a statement of fact, as Acts 19:6 they received the Holy Spirit.
You were just proved wrong and instead of admitting that you tried to work your way around it by bringing up the laying on of the hands. The baptism in 19:5 is not the laying on of hands in 19:6, they are two separate things to be done in the process to receive the Holy Spirit.

They were told about Christ (establish faith / Acts 19:4), then they were baptized in Christ (water immersion / Acts 19:5), then they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:6).

Baptism still came before the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and if they had not had repented yet then they could not have been saved for Jesus said unless repentance is done we would still perish (Luke 13:3).

As always you continue to misuse Acts 10-15........................................

 

[KennethC]

In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. Being crucified as a thief, blasheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus is not the fruit of repentance/faith, but moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

We are all saved by different standards? Does God grade on a curve? Now how many good works did that thief accomplish on the cross in those final moments before he died? If the thief would have been allowed to live, you would have seen a changed life in the thief demonstrated by good works, but the point is that he was saved through faith, apart from whatever works he may have accomplished later.

Nobody is promoting disobedience, but the point is that you could never be "obedient enough" to earn your salvation. We are not saved by good works, but FOR good works. Accomplishing a lifetime of obedience to the Lord's commands would be a manifestation of our faith (fruit, not the root of saving faith) and not the origin of it. If someone died the same day that they genuinely placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (like the thief on the cross) and was unable to accomplish a lifetime of obedience to the Lord's command's, they still had faith in Christ for salvation and will be saved. You couldn't say that they did not accomplish these multiple acts of obedience to the Lord's commands and faith "is" in essence these multiple acts of obedience to the Lord's commands, so they did not have faith.

A person who has lived their life in belief of the Lord does have obedience they are called to walk in, a person who makes a final death bed confession has no time/chance to live in obedience to the Lord.

Therefore yes the mercy from the Lord comes into play in those situations.

If you claim it doesn't then you either have the death bed confessors condemned, or you allow disobedient servants to get eternal life. Lord Jesus would disagree with you on either case as He showed mercy to the thief, but said also that disobedient servants will be cast into outer darkness, receive eternal punishment, and be told He never knew them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You use a lot of words making long posts that end up doing nothing but still denying the truth.

I clearly showed you how "be converted" in Acts 3:19 is the same as "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ" in Acts 2:38.

You still denied it because you want to see the exact word "baptize", but those exact words are not what is always used in all cases. For we are converted into one of His disciples by baptism !!!

Acts 19:2 is posed as a question not a statement of fact, as Acts 19:6 they received the Holy Spirit.
You were just proved wrong and instead of admitting that you tried to work your way around it by bringing up the laying on of the hands. The baptism in 19:5 is not the laying on of hands in 19:6, they are two separate things to be done in the process to receive the Holy Spirit.

They were told about Christ (establish faith / Acts 19:4), then they were baptized in Christ (water immersion / Acts 19:5), then they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:6).

Baptism still came before the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and if they had not had repented yet then they could not have been saved for Jesus said unless repentance is done we would still perish (Luke 13:3).

Half of those who we expect to be in heaven can not be saved then, for no one (except for priests who went through the ceremony as instructed by Moses on being consecrated as priests of God )were baptized in the OT.

it has already been proven that peter did not tell anyone to be baptized to recieve the gift of the spirit. he told them repent to recieve the gift. Only those who repented (were saved) were baptized. not the other way around. (word usage in the greek)

 

[dcontroversal]

The thief on the cross is an example of last minute death bed confession, and mercy shown by the Lord in those situations.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the standard a believer who has lived their whole life, or at least a good portion of it in belief is commanded to do.

Even Apostle Paul says to not use examples such as that for a reason to be disobedient to the Lord's commands, as disobedience is called sin of unbelief in God's word. (Read Hebrews)

This statement reeks.........the thief on the cross is an example of faith and belief into Jesus which equals eternal life and salvation...

 

[dcontroversal]

Half of those who we expect to be in heaven can not be saved then, for no one (except for priests who went through the ceremony as instructed by Moses on being consecrated as priests of God )were baptized in the OT.

it has already been proven that peter did not tell anyone to be baptized to recieve the gift of the spirit. he told them repent to recieve the gift. Only those who repented (were saved) were baptized. not the other way around. (word usage in the greek)

He ignores verb tense because it proves him to be in error!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This statement reeks.........the thief on the cross is an example of faith and belief into Jesus which equals eternal life and salvation...

agree, the only difference is the thief did not have any time to do the works he was saved to do (eph 2: 10) where as anyone who is truly saved, not on his deathbed, by faith will do those works (eph 2: 8-10)

 

[dcontroversal]

agree, the only difference is the thief did not have any time to do the works he was saved to do (eph 2: 10) where as anyone who is truly saved, not on his deathbed, by faith will do those works (eph 2: 8-10)

I agree.....a tree will have at least one piece of fruit....and even faith is lumped under that banner...What must we do to do the works of God...believe on him whom he hath sent.........!

 

[mailmandan]

You use a lot of words making long posts that end up doing nothing but still denying the truth.

I have clearly proved my points from Scripture but unfortunately, you just don't have eyes to see.

I clearly showed you how "be converted" in Acts 3:19 is the same as "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ" in Acts 2:38.

No you didn't show me. You simply substituted the word baptized for converted in order to make your biased doctrine fit, but it didn't work. Luke 24:47 says ..repentance and remission of sins.. *with no reference to baptism* as well. Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 blows your argument out of the water!

You still denied it because you want to see the exact word "baptize", but those exact words are not what is always used in all cases. For we are converted into one of His disciples by baptism !!!

No, water baptism is not the cause of our conversion, put the picture. So what do you do with Mark 1:15? - Repent and believe the gospel. Do you substitute the word baptized for believe the gospel?

Acts 19:2 is posed as a question not a statement of fact, as Acts 19:6 they received the Holy Spirit.
You were just proved wrong and instead of admitting that you tried to work your way around it by bringing up the laying on of the hands. The baptism in 19:5 is not the laying on of hands in 19:6, they are two separate things to be done in the process to receive the Holy Spirit.

The question in Acts 19:2 was, "did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" *Not when you were water baptized. You did not prove me wrong and completely ignored that the there was a delay in receiving the Holy Spirit until they received the laying on of hands (exception, not the rule, just as in Acts 8:16-17). Just because they were water baptized first does not prove your point or negate Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). Prior to receiving the Holy Spirit (John 7:38-39) believers were still saved through believing in Him (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) and not through water baptism.

They were told about Christ (establish faith / Acts 19:4), then they were baptized in Christ (water immersion / Acts 19:5), then they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:6).

Again, exception, just as in Acts 8:16-17, not the rule. There was a delay in them receiving the Holy Spirit only because the laying of hands was required first. You need to rightly divide the word of truth. What does Ephesians 1:13 say?

Baptism still came before the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and if they had not had repented yet then they could not have been saved for Jesus said unless repentance is done we would still perish (Luke 13:3).

Only in those cases and there was a reason for that. There was a delay because the laying on of hands was required first IN THEIR CASE -exception, not the rule. We must repent and believe the gospel to become saved. Water baptism follows repentance/faith/conversion. If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE (and those who believe have already repented) - John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17,18; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..

As always you continue to misuse Acts 10-15........................................

Acts 10-16 is CRYSTAL CLEAR. It's you who misuses Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:2-6 and then you try to force all of these other CRYSTAL CLEAR verses to "conform" to your "watered down" gospel. You need to rightly divide the word of truth and harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion.

 

[dcontroversal]

I have clearly proved my points from Scripture but unfortunately, you just don't have eyes to see.

No you didn't show me. You simply substituted the word baptized for converted in order to make your biased doctrine fit, but it didn't work. Luke 24:47 says ..repentance and remission of sins.. *with no reference to baptism* as well. Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 blows your argument out of the water!

No, water baptism is not the cause of our conversion, put the picture. So what do you do with Mark 1:15? - Repent and believe the gospel. Do you substitute the word baptized for believe the gospel?

The question in Acts 19:2 was, "did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" *Not when you were water baptized. You did not prove me wrong and completely ignored that the there was a delay in receiving the Holy Spirit until they received the laying on of hands (exception, not the rule, just as in Acts 8:16-17). Just because they were water baptized first does not prove your point or negate Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). Prior to receiving the Holy Spirit (John 7:38-39) believers were still saved through believing in Him (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) and not through water baptism.

Again, exception, just as in Acts 8:16-17, not the rule. There was a delay in them receiving the Holy Spirit only because the laying of hands was required first. You need to rightly divide the word of truth. What does Ephesians 1:13 say?

Only in those cases and there was a reason for that. There was a delay because the laying on of hands was required first IN THEIR CASE -exception, not the rule. We must repent and believe the gospel to become saved. Water baptism follows repentance/faith/conversion. If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE (and those who believe have already repented) - John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17,18; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..

Acts 10-16 is CRYSTAL CLEAR. It's you who misuses Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:2-6 and then you try to force all of these other CRYSTAL CLEAR verses to "conform" to your "watered down" gospel. You need to rightly divide the word of truth and harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion.

No doubt.....the Greek also renders his twist of Acts 2:38 to be false as well.......Baptism is a picture of conversion that has already taken place by faith....Jesus was the SON of God by birth LONG before he was immersed......


Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.

God so loved the world that He gave his unique Son that
whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER REQUIRED]

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[All them who believer, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 4:1

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

(as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]


Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

 

[wattie]

Off beam teaching-

Baptism is part of eternal salvation.

That just IS NOT biblical. Too many verses as DC has shown show conversion without baptism.

Prophecy seperate from scripture. That is not anywhere in scripture. OT prophets were pointing to Christ or giving God's Word to the leaders of Israel and maybe a few others. Prophecy in NT.. is 'speaking forth God's Word'. God would never contradict scripture. When Peter refers to a 'more sure word of prophecy' he is actually talking about scripture.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a second experience to confirm salvation (or as some cases- GIVE salvation).

Baptism of the Holy Spirit.. if you are talking about what happened to the disciples .. was a group, a church- in this case initially Jesus and His disciples.. and then the church at Jerusalem.. already formed.. which was empowered.. and the Holy Spirit's ministry beginning in His churches.

Show me scripture that has baptism of the Holy Spirit for individuals alone. All I see is groups being empowered thru Acts.. not one individual alone, by themselves having a second experience after salvation.

'we were all baptised into one body...' This is Paul referring in Corinthians to being baptised in reference to membership to the church at Corinth. This is about church membership!

Body-- as in local body, church... congregation.. assembly. Baptism is a pre-requisite to join a New Testament church!

Look at the pictures of a body of Christ in Corinthians. It's of a visible assembly. How can one member be affected by another's walk.. if it is of a universal body of believers everywhere?

Surely when you mean Body of Christ.. you mean Family of God? Or Kingdom? Because the body of Christ.. is not a universal entity.

-- ack.. i am still posting in this forum! Said I would have a break last post! Oh well

 

[Mindwrencher]

Just a few questions: Is "confession" a work? It IS something one does. The confessor must speak with the lips and believe with his heart. So, is confession a "work" or not?? Is saying a "sinner's prayer" a work, or not?? Because I have found over the course of some 40+ years in the faith that some people want to pick and choose what "actions" are "work" and "Not work"!! Is repentance a work or not?? When one changes his mind and makes a decision to follow Jesus, is that repentance a work, or not? Because some people hear the word of Christ, and make a conscious decision NOT TO FOLLOW Jesus. Is their action a work, or not? Because all you Baptists and Methodists want to pick and choose what you are willing to call "work".

It is much better to approach this subject in regards to merit. Instead of excluding confession and the sinner's prayer, you should ask what it "merits" a man to believe, repent, confess and say his sinner's prayer. When a man is baptized, what has it merited him? Nothing. He still deserves to die. OK, when a man says his sinner's prayer, what has it merited? Nothing. Because a man is saved by Grace through Faith. OK, so when a man confesses, what has that merited him. Again, nothing. He still "deserves" to die. So, when a man believes in Jesus, what has that belief merited him? Nothing, he still "deserves" to die. There is not one single thing a man can do to "merit" salvation, it is THE FREE GIFT of God. (You know the verses, look them up yourself). So, once again, what does "belief" merit anyone? Nothing!!

 

[hopesprings]

Nice to see some things never change