fall of man?

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OwenHeidenreich

Guest
#1
So Adam was made in the image of God
God is Love
So Adam was made in the image of Love.
One characteristic of "Love" (as described in the bible) is that "Love never fails..." (1 Corinthians 13:8)

Therefore, Adam was made in the image of Love and Love never fails.

So if Love never fails, why did Adam fail? Was he not in the image of love?
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
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#2
So if Love never fails, why did Adam fail?
It called free will!

Isaiah 53v6: 'All we like sheep have gone astray...' with Ezek 18 (all) esp. v4,20

NOTE: Man goes astray (as a voluntary action, i.e., the operation of free will), he is NOT born astray (or in sin)!

Yahweh Shalom...
 
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OwenHeidenreich

Guest
#3
ok but why does evil have to be included in free will? could there be a free will in a world where no evil exists?
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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#4
ok but why does evil have to be included in free will? could there be a free will in a world where no evil exists?
Sin has no existence by itself, and was not created by God, who created all things. It is simply a possible attitude of soul, and its existence depends solely upon the will of the sinner. If all sinners repented all sin would disappear!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
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#5
Apparently creaturely love mixed with finite understanding fails.
Infinite love never fails.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#6
ok but why does evil have to be included in free will? could there be a free will in a world where no evil exists?
No. Because to make it do evil does not exist. Free will would have to be removed.

Sin is saying no to God in any area. It is self motivated.

Adam and eve sins was pride. They did not trust God. remember, the sin that caused the death of man was eating a peace of fruit. God thought that was so evil he caused the death of mankind (of course so he could offer the gift of life to all)
 

Shilo

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2011
1,974
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#7
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Man was made in God's image to rule the earth as God rules the heavens. Man was to be a refletion of what God is like. In his likeness God is Spirit and has a soul. Man was to have his Spirit so moved by God that he would grow in his Spirit and soul.

But this did not happen.

Genesis 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth

Man lost his dominion to Satan the image of man was now changed. He is now ruled by his soul and not his spirit. He must turn to god through Yeshua and learn to walk in the Spirit.









i
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
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#8
ok but why does evil have to be included in free will? could there be a free will in a world where no evil exists?
Free will requires the existence of a choice. Without options you are not free.

God did not create evil. It is only the absence of God that is evil.

And it wasn't eating the fruit that upset God; it was that God had told Adam 'just don't do this one thing' and Adam's decision to do it anyway.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#9
So Adam was made in the image of God
God is Love
So Adam was made in the image of Love.
One characteristic of "Love" (as described in the bible) is that "Love never fails..." (1 Corinthians 13:8)

Therefore, Adam was made in the image of Love and Love never fails.

So if Love never fails, why did Adam fail? Was he not in the image of love?
That's some real boot-strapping.
 

stefen

Senior Member
Jun 14, 2013
105
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#10
Yeah. God have made man in His own image. But there is free will to choose good or bad. Once Adam listened to his own wife or devil, he became his own image or devil's. Until tat, his 1st priority was God, so, he maintained God's image.

When a child born on this earth, that child will be in an human image and innocent. He will have choice to choose to be God's reflection or his own or devil's..
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
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#11
ok but why does evil have to be included in free will? could there be a free will in a world where no evil exists?
Let me ask you...in heaven there will be no evil , so will free will exist or will we do only God's will?
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,375
2,450
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#12
Owenheidenreich,

Equivocate much?
 
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OwenHeidenreich

Guest
#13
no, I am using scripture to make my claim. i'll simplify it

God is love
image of God
image of love
what is love? 1 corinthians 13:4-8
man made in the image of god
man made in the image of love
man didn't have love because he didn't trust God.
"Love always trusts"

If man didn't have love, then man wasn't made in the image of love
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
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#14
no, I am using scripture to make my claim. i'll simplify it

God is love
image of God
image of love
what is love? 1 corinthians 13:4-8
man made in the image of god
man made in the image of love
man didn't have love because he didn't trust God.
"Love always trusts"

If man didn't have love, then man wasn't made in the image of love
Well, man was made in God's image but that image was incredibly marred at the Fall. (Consider Cain's action of murdering his brother out of envy...hardly love)
 
T

TruthTalk

Guest
#15
ok but why does evil have to be included in free will? could there be a free will in a world where no evil exists?
Genesis 2:16
"And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;"

I make a distinction between "free will and free choice" only God has free will and human beings and animals have free choice. The reason for this is that all of our choices are based on some type of external influence. Using your example of Adam I will agree with you that the bible says, "
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." Gen1:27. The love of God for Adam and Eve was a perfect love from the Creator, however, the love of Adam and Even was not a perfect love and so they made a personal choice to not love God and disobey Him. As crossnote states in his post that our love is a finite conditional type of love and Gods' love is infinitely perfect. The love of Jesus Christ was also a perfect love.

Does "free will" exist in a world where "no evil exists?" - yes, maybe!
:)
 
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starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
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#16
Man was originally created in the image of God, perfect holiness and love, but the fall resulted in man becoming tainted by sin which affected his descendants. However, one's love for God is restored and they become partaker of the divine nature at regeneration through God's grace.
 
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enoch1nine

Guest
#17
Post #1, I think your word migration from Corinthians to Genesis doesn't work.
The phrase "God is love" is not like a math equation like 2+2=4 or 1=1.

Man is an image. For the word logic as presented to work, God would have had to instead "make man God" instead of an "image of God" in order to properly propose that "Love" or "God" failed when man did.

It would be more proper by your word logic to say that when man failed, "the image of love failed."

A little more digestible.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,055
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#18
ok but why does evil have to be included in free will? could there be a free will in a world where no evil exists?
There is going to be one day. God so loved us that he gave free will and told truth to Adam about eating from that tree what would happen, and this did happen.
now say that this tree that brought death had not have been there, and thus Adam would have never sinned, nor would he or anyone then ever been aware of good or bad right, and death would have never occurred right?

If you were the one that did this created man in your in your image, and did not give free choice to the man you created, then could you ever say that you loved that person? Would not that person then be a puppet?
Is it better to know good and evil rather than not? Is it better to have the choice than not? So which is better good (GOD) or evil?
So God through Christ went to the cross to remove the curse that was brought on by that tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. And restore to us what Adam and Eve lost, which was the Spirit of God, life. And this life is given to us by proof of the resurrected Christ
So the fight today is plainly seen flesh vs. Spirit of God
When Spirit of God is in control, through ones free will, then there is no error(s), but as soon as one is deceived and walks in there flesh that one is on their way to destruction of them themselves and others
The Difference between flesh and Spirit
Christ died in the Flesh for us to see our death in the flesh, and thus came alive in the Spirit of God the Father by God the Father so we can have new life in him here today by being dead to our sinful flesh nature by belief in what he did so by Christ's death taking away the sin issue God is able to raise us to new life in the Spirit of God, because God through Christ has taken away the sin of the world, We are with the ministry of reconciliation
[h=3]Colossians 1:21-23[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[SUP][a][/SUP] your evil behavior. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#19
ok but why does evil have to be included in free will? could there be a free will in a world where no evil exists?
How would one be able to "make" the virtuous choice without the option to choose evil?

Think carefully about that question.


There can be no righteousness apart from choice. If there is no choice then there is no "choosing right," in its place would be an automated response. An automated response is simply not virtue because virtue by necessity must include an act of the will.

Is a robot programmed to be friendly, open doors and check your blood pressure virtuous? Or is a human being who chooses to be friendly and helpful virtuous?

God created Adam with the capacity to choose to work good or evil. Adam's sin involved the choice of evil, even though Adam was innocent within the context of being ignorant to actually what evil was. Nevertheless he was fully responsible for choosing to act in discordance to the will of God.

Likewise Cain and Abel had the same capacity to choose that Adam possessed. The main difference with Cain and Abel is that they had been exposed to sin in the world and thus likely did not possess the innocence of Adam (except when they were children).

Neither Cain or Abel were "spiritually fallen" when they were born. They were still wonderfully made. Abel chose to do right whilst Cain chose to do wrong.



The Bible does not teach that the sin of Adam corrupted the nature of his descendents. That teaching basically claims that Adam sinned by choice but all his descendents sin by necessity. Is the condemnation of the sinner just if they sin by necessity?

This subtle twist in the nature of man redefines "sin" from being a crime to being a malady.

If our sin is due to an inborn malady then there is no possible way that we can accept full responsibility. We must perceive ourselves as the victims of circumstance. This underlying premise then necessitates that repentance be the "confession of a malady" rather than involving the "forsaking of crime."

Paul wrote this...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Godly sorrow works a repentance which is not to be regretted.

Think about godly sorrow for a minute. Would you think the difference between believing "sin is a malady" as opposed to believing "sin is a crime" would have any effect on godly sorrow?

If godly sorrow produces a clearing (purity in regards to a crime) due to the carefulness, zeal, fear, revenge, indignation and vehement desire it produces would such a result differ within the context of sin being a result of an act of the will as opposed to an act of a birth nature?

One cannot forsake a birth nature but one can forsake crime.

See the difference?

Think about it.
 
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BishopSEH

Guest
#20
Let me see if I can simply the paradox you are forming.

God is love
God created man in His image
Man is love
Man is God

Your example has been used throughout history to make the example above. When you go too far you allow for continued addition.

We are made in the IMAGE of God but we are not God. We are a copy, a reproduction at best. Yet each person is different from each other person. When God made all of creation it was named good, even very good. Not perfect. Unlike God we as created beings can go against our design and purpose. God, having never been designed can only be what He is. I am that I am. Man, more accurately, I will be what I will be.

To site another example, I will use the Temple. We know there is a temple in Heaven or more accurately we know there is a true temple in heaven for Jesus placed His blood on the alter at that temple in Heaven. Would you mind pointing out the temple here on earth? The temple here is a copy, a reproduction and its gone. Destroyed much like the relationship between man and God. But the real temple, the original, is still standing in heaven. Just as for those that choose Christ will be restored to a true relationship with God at the completion of final sanctification when we enter into the presence of God in heaven.

In Christ,

Bishop SEH