Finite, Infinite, and both at the same time

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thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

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#1
Jun 30, 2011
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#1
I often wrestle this in my head that God is both in the moment with us, and outside the moment.

That I only am finite - I had a beginning, I live in the now

God is infinite - has no beginning and lives outside of time

God also interacts with the finite - God by His Holy Spirit strives with men, woos and changes them to the image that already occupies the infinite

That somehow it's God, but it's me - not I but Christ who lives in me.... I still don't totally get it

We say free will in the sense of the Finite

Or believe that God expounds His love like we finite people do, or a false greek/roman cupid love, or think that because we don't think it's loving, God can't do that.

I think many believe it, they would never say it of course, that God needs them, that God created the heavens and the earth for them, that God exists for their happiness. That if it wasn't for man, God would not exist ... is this not humanism?
 
ThomistColin

ThomistColin

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#2
Nov 30, 2012
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#2
God does not need us, but He wants us. Therefore, He created the heavens and the earth for us, and died for us. All because He loves us and wants us.
 
crossnote

crossnote

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#3
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
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#3
[/QUOTE=thecreationtutor;1229861) often wrestle this in my head that God is both in the moment with us, and outside the moment.

That I only am finite - I had a beginning, I live in the now

God is infinite - has no beginning and lives outside of time

God also interacts with the finite - God by His Holy Spirit strives with men, woos and changes them to the image that already occupies the infinite

That somehow it's God, but it's me - not I but Christ who lives in me.... I still don't totally get it

We say free will in the sense of the Finite

Or believe that God expounds His love like we finite people do, or a false greek/roman cupid love, or think that because we don't think it's loving, God can't do that.

I think many believe it, they would never say it of course, that God needs them, that God created the heavens and the earth for them, that God exists for their happiness. That if it wasn't for man, God would not exist ... is this not humanism?[/QUOTE]



It sounds more like narcissism.

I sometimes think (but usually don't) that the finite, no matter what, cannot reach the infinite just as man cannot reach God.
So if you take a finite number such as (4) it is just as close to infinity as a large number such as (4,223,732,661,899)...as a matter of fact they are equidistant because the infinite is in a completely different realm than the finite. Further, if you think of the very largest finite number you can think of...well, you can always add 'one' to it whereas you can't add 'one' to infinity.
So taking the above into account it was necessary for the infinite to 'reach across' the chasm into the finite as the finite could in no way reach the Infinite.

(btw. in mathematics they talk of 'x' or 'y' approaching infinity....bad math)
 
Last edited:
W

weakness

Guest
#4
#4
crossnote said:
[/QUOTE=thecreationtutor;1229861) often wrestle this in my head that God is both in the moment with us, and outside the moment.

That I only am finite - I had a beginning, I live in the now

God is infinite - has no beginning and lives outside of time

God also interacts with the finite - God by His Holy Spirit strives with men, woos and changes them to the image that already occupies the infinite

That somehow it's God, but it's me - not I but Christ who lives in me.... I still don't totally get it

We say free will in the sense of the Finite

Or believe that God expounds His love like we finite people do, or a false greek/roman cupid love, or think that because we don't think it's loving, God can't do that.

I think many believe it, they would never say it of course, that God needs them, that God created the heavens and the earth for them, that God exists for their happiness. That if it wasn't for man, God would not exist ... is this not humanism?
Click to expand...


It sounds more like narcissism.

I sometimes think (but usually don't) that the finite, no matter what, cannot reach the infinite just as man cannot reach God.
So if you take a finite number such as (4) it is just as close to infinity as a large number such as (4,223,732,661,899)...as a matter of fact they are equidistant because the infinite is in a completely different realm than the finite. Further, if you think of the very largest finite number you can think of...well, you can always add 'one' to it whereas you can't add 'one' to infinity.
So taking the above into account it was necessary for the infinite to 'reach across' the chasm into the finite as the finite could in no way reach the Infinite.

(btw. in mathematics they talk of 'x' or 'y' approaching infinity....bad math)[/QUOTEt I ponder myself on the things you are saying,and agree with you "I still don't totally get it".But I>m not sure God could be God without us.I kind of think God is what he does says what he is ,and all of what he has made and does is a perfect and unchangeable expression of him self .Just as he revealed himself perfectly in the person of Jesus ,the scripture also speaks of the creation also expressing his glory and person hood . It declares the glory of God. Not just in beauty but also in the most intricate and unsearchable ways. Since something cant be created from nothing ,I think God created the creation out of himself. I hope this does not sound heretical or anything. I don't worship nature or anything, but I also hold it in respect as Gods and as something he gave us the ability to influence for Good or bad. But many people treat Gods creation as an object to be consumed by there lusts instead of an object of stewardship.You spoke of the finite and living in the now,have you ever been able to escape the now? Wouldn't the now be very much like eternity? We conceive of tomorrow or yesterday but we can really never go there except in our minds. I think God has made us eternal beings.Where we spend this eternity is the question. I think God was bound by his own perfection to make things the way they are. These are just my thoughts ,but scripture bears some out as does the witness in my spirit and sounds like also yours. I don't try and dwell on this ,but the Spirit gives me little glimpses sometimes I think. The scripture say not to be vainly puffed up in or minds about things we cannot see.Any way I liked reading your thoughts!
 
crossnote

crossnote

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#5
Nov 24, 2012
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#5
Weakness,
I would only ask, ''before God made us, was He God?''
 
W

weakness

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#6
#6
​YES,but I think we were in his mind and purposes
 
konroh

konroh

Senior Member
#7
Sep 17, 2013
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#7
In Genesis we do have God forming things from pre-existing materials, the earth was shapeless and void, and the Spirit moved on the surface of the waters. I think God did create out of nothing initially, but it's interesting that each day of creation builds on the other. He creates light, the later the light-bearers, He creates the sea and sky, then later fills them. Creation is definitely put on a pedestal and we should be good stewards but we also recognize that we are the pinnacle of creation and nature is ours to rule, which we've done in good and bad ways.
 
WeStand

WeStand

Banned
#8
Mar 11, 2011
887
5
0
#8
thecreationtutor said:
I often wrestle this in my head that God is both in the moment with us, and outside the moment.

That I only am finite - I had a beginning, I live in the now

God is infinite - has no beginning and lives outside of time

God also interacts with the finite - God by His Holy Spirit strives with men, woos and changes them to the image that already occupies the infinite

That somehow it's God, but it's me - not I but Christ who lives in me.... I still don't totally get it

We say free will in the sense of the Finite

Or believe that God expounds His love like we finite people do, or a false greek/roman cupid love, or think that because we don't think it's loving, God can't do that.

I think many believe it, they would never say it of course, that God needs them, that God created the heavens and the earth for them, that God exists for their happiness. That if it wasn't for man, God would not exist ... is this not humanism?
Click to expand...
The Spirit of Love is the infinite part; Our Father.

GOD- Getting Over Death/Satan is the finite part.

Reckognizing the heritage of the inner-person, starting with your own, and then everyone else's as well, is acknowledging the part of the kingdom of heaven that one has now. (the getting the beam out of your own eye thing)

Its not much, its just a part of His Wisdom, just plain ole common-sense, that is capable of reaching out for His Wisdom. (word/prayer) After all Love is a 2 way street, and Our Father states quite clearly that we were created for His pleasure; You please Him, and He will be sure to please you.

The flesh is the useless part; it is 5 senses of Death/Satan; that is attempting through the desires for it, to get one to deny that their spirit needs TLC as well, but NOT from another flesh being, for the spirit is not originally of this flesh; but through His Word and Prayer.

What everyone is waiting for; (that is, I thought EVERYONE was waiting for) was what Christ demonstrated on the Mt. of Olives, that was also demonstrated beforehand to certain selected Apostles, (Moses & Elijah appearing and disappearing without a spaceship)

I mean like, it is NOT some that will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, it IS, ALL. The good and the bad, for ALL souls belong to me; thus saith The LORD.

This change of bodies is nescessary so that NO ONE is hurt physically. I mean like, What exactly IS Our Father's Will? does anyone even know? or do they even believe for real, that HE WILL accomplish it!?

In case one does not know His Will, it IS that NOBODY HURT ANYBODY FOREVER/Infinitely; and by the blood of Christ on the cross; His Will, SHALL BE accomplished, in His way and in His time.

Works in mysterious ways? you bettcha! talk about Power and Will; when the biggest negative that there is; Satan, Death himself in person, shows up to spiritually murder His children, the First part of His Will is accomplished, and that is that; NOBODY will be Hurting anybody anymore, physically. (right at the tensest moment of WW3)

Thus begins the false Lovefest, or Apostacy; until Instead-of-Christ (anti-Christ) breaks Our Father's Will again; and ultimately murders the 2 witnesses, physically.

Then exactly 3 1/2 days later; the 2 witnesses arise, to introduce none other than, Tah Dah! MELCHEZIDEK! :cool:

"why do I see every man with his hands upon his loins, like a woman in travail?" Suckered In; that's why.

Then, comes the change of bodies, in the twinkling of an eye, so that NO ONE is hurt while EVERYTHING is evaporated upon the earth; except of course, those things that are capable of Eternity/Infinity: Precious Metals, Precious Gems and of course the Precious souls, that couldn't meet Christ/Melchezidek in the air.

But just because we are going to meet Christ in the air; does NOT mean that we are going anywhere; just means that you won't be terribly shaken and extremely embarrassed.

The Kingdom is going to be established HERE! as the scriptures (not the English verses) clearly state that, the heavens and the earth will be re-juvenated ; Not New, but rather re-established.

Our Father moves for NO ONE. and He doesn't back down from anyone, especially an idiot like Satan/Death.
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#9
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
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#9
konroh said:
In Genesis we do have God forming things from pre-existing materials, the earth was shapeless and void, and the Spirit moved on the surface of the waters. I think God did create out of nothing initially, but it's interesting that each day of creation builds on the other. He creates light, the later the light-bearers, He creates the sea and sky, then later fills them. Creation is definitely put on a pedestal and we should be good stewards but we also recognize that we are the pinnacle of creation and nature is ours to rule, which we've done in good and bad ways.
Click to expand...
Yes - God has put laws to run the Universe, Man is the only creation that bares His image and likeness but we also remember that we are not God. A healthy stewardship of what God has given us is important

Sometimes I think if we are not careful we can fall into humanistic beliefs that in a sense deify man - When God alone is separate from His creation.
 
thecreationtutor

thecreationtutor

Senior Member
#10
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
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0
#10
WeStand said:
The Spirit of Love is the infinite part; Our Father.

GOD- Getting Over Death/Satan is the finite part.

Reckognizing the heritage of the inner-person, starting with your own, and then everyone else's as well, is acknowledging the part of the kingdom of heaven that one has now. (the getting the beam out of your own eye thing)

Its not much, its just a part of His Wisdom, just plain ole common-sense, that is capable of reaching out for His Wisdom. (word/prayer) After all Love is a 2 way street, and Our Father states quite clearly that we were created for His pleasure; You please Him, and He will be sure to please you.

The flesh is the useless part; it is 5 senses of Death/Satan; that is attempting through the desires for it, to get one to deny that their spirit needs TLC as well, but NOT from another flesh being, for the spirit is not originally of this flesh; but through His Word and Prayer.

What everyone is waiting for; (that is, I thought EVERYONE was waiting for) was what Christ demonstrated on the Mt. of Olives, that was also demonstrated beforehand to certain selected Apostles, (Moses & Elijah appearing and disappearing without a spaceship)

I mean like, it is NOT some that will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, it IS, ALL. The good and the bad, for ALL souls belong to me; thus saith The LORD.

This change of bodies is nescessary so that NO ONE is hurt physically. I mean like, What exactly IS Our Father's Will? does anyone even know? or do they even believe for real, that HE WILL accomplish it!?

In case one does not know His Will, it IS that NOBODY HURT ANYBODY FOREVER/Infinitely; and by the blood of Christ on the cross; His Will, SHALL BE accomplished, in His way and in His time.

Works in mysterious ways? you bettcha! talk about Power and Will; when the biggest negative that there is; Satan, Death himself in person, shows up to spiritually murder His children, the First part of His Will is accomplished, and that is that; NOBODY will be Hurting anybody anymore, physically. (right at the tensest moment of WW3)

Thus begins the false Lovefest, or Apostacy; until Instead-of-Christ (anti-Christ) breaks Our Father's Will again; and ultimately murders the 2 witnesses, physically.

Then exactly 3 1/2 days later; the 2 witnesses arise, to introduce none other than, Tah Dah! MELCHEZIDEK! :cool:

"why do I see every man with his hands upon his loins, like a woman in travail?" Suckered In; that's why.

Then, comes the change of bodies, in the twinkling of an eye, so that NO ONE is hurt while EVERYTHING is evaporated upon the earth; except of course, those things that are capable of Eternity/Infinity: Precious Metals, Precious Gems and of course the Precious souls, that couldn't meet Christ/Melchezidek in the air.

But just because we are going to meet Christ in the air; does NOT mean that we are going anywhere; just means that you won't be terribly shaken and extremely embarrassed.

The Kingdom is going to be established HERE! as the scriptures (not the English verses) clearly state that, the heavens and the earth will be re-juvenated ; Not New, but rather re-established.

Our Father moves for NO ONE. and He doesn't back down from anyone, especially an idiot like Satan/Death.
Click to expand...


People will say God moves for no one, but then say that we also chose to have faith in God, and God saw something in that.

I guess it's the day we live in where Love as a word is destroyed and we have to come up with another word, God's love is a choice of His will, on behalf of the person.

The sum total of God is not love either, because He is Just, He is merciful, He is wrathful, He is Angry, the only sum total Characteristic is His Holiness - His love is holy, His mercy is Holy, His wrath is holy, His vengeance is Holy, His anger is Holy, His justice is Holy

The Kingdom of heaven is here now with us, as well as a future kingdom - If His promises are true, then they are true now, and I can claim them as my own - all the promises of God are Yes in Jesus Christ
 
WeStand

WeStand

Banned
#12
Mar 11, 2011
887
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0
#12
thecreationtutor said:
People will say God moves for no one, but then say that we also chose to have faith in God, and God saw something in that.

I guess it's the day we live in where Love as a word is destroyed and we have to come up with another word, God's love is a choice of His will, on behalf of the person.

The sum total of God is not love either, because He is Just, He is merciful, He is wrathful, He is Angry, the only sum total Characteristic is His Holiness - His love is holy, His mercy is Holy, His wrath is holy, His vengeance is Holy, His anger is Holy, His justice is Holy

The Kingdom of heaven is here now with us, as well as a future kingdom - If His promises are true, then they are true now, and I can claim them as my own - all the promises of God are Yes in Jesus Christ
Click to expand...
It is not God's love; it is that GOD Almighty IS LOVE.

And it is the part of the kingdom we have now; as, although promised, and true beyond any reasonable doubt that it will be established here; it has yet to have happened completely, yet. Though one can surely envision it, through the Word and Prayer.
 
J

jimmydiggs

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#14
#14
I'm surprised you liked my post WeStand, I thought I was still a kenite.
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W

weakness

Guest
#16
#16
thecreationtutor said:
Yes - for what reason - to show His mercy and Grace for His Glory and our Joy
Click to expand...
​ The short answer is yes again ,in my view, but also for his perfect love, judgement ,wisdom, understanding etc......... A perfect and Holy God does every thing perfectly. It would not be of perfect love to hide himself under a bushel , but to set forth that all may see. But there are still those who have eyes and see not and ears who hear not.I am assured that the Spirit who searches the deep things of God will reveal the love and purposes of God unto us. As Jesus said he must depart and the Spirit of Truth will come and guide us into all truth and reveal the things of God to us. For now we are the children of God and we know that when we shall see him we shall be like him !! Praise to God the almighty maker of heaven and earth who has laid down his own life that we might have true life that's only found in him and in his Son. For greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends . Amen
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#18
Jul 31, 2013
36,672
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#18
crossnote said:
So if you take a finite number such as (4) it is just as close to infinity as a large number such as (4,223,732,661,899)...as a matter of fact they are equidistant because the infinite is in a completely different realm than the finite. Further, if you think of the very largest finite number you can think of...well, you can always add 'one' to it whereas you can't add 'one' to infinity.
So taking the above into account it was necessary for the infinite to 'reach across' the chasm into the finite as the finite could in no way reach the Infinite.

(btw. in mathematics they talk of 'x' or 'y' approaching infinity....bad math)
Click to expand...
"x approaches infinity" may be imprecise terminology, but it's not 'bad math,' i think. what else can you say about a function that increases without any upper bound?

am struggling trying to decide whether God is countably infinite or uncountably infinite.

intuition wants that God is uncountably infinite, but can it be shown that Christ provides a bijection to the natural numbers?
 
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