Food for thought

[Rainrider]

First let us look at the easy answer to this. I am sure that we can all agree there is soething about Yeshua that is different than anyone we know. His use of scripture in answering when asked about topics by the leaders of religious law. As well when being tempted by Satan. He had the power to heal on demand, and even the waters obeyed His command. Hunger was something humans face, and it is clear that Yeshua also had need of food, although He did fast for 40 days. Something no human could do, and live.
No matter where you look we find that Yeshua seemed to hold both human and god like quilts. So what do say, was He HaShem made flesh, or just a man that is now worshiped? If we say He was a man, then why worship Him? After all that would place us in a dangerous place. Everyone will agree that to worship another god other than HaShem is sin. Yet at the same time we wish to worship 2 gods.
So can we find that we really only worship HaShem, and that it's ok to worship a man as well? I think not, and I do think, (if any one is reading this they would agree), Yeshua is more than just a man. He was in fact HaShem made fleash, and so was HaShem as He had said many times, and scripture made clear this is fact.
So how can it be? Well if we think about it, the man was filled with the spirit of HaShem, and once removed the man died. As seen on the cross. HaShem as well should know is Holy, and can't be looked on by man in all His glory. So in order to bring salvation to the world, He took on a human body, filled it with His spirit, and gave us a model to live by.
Knowing HaShem is Holy, and without sin, we should reason that He can't go against His own Laws. By his laws to touch a dead body makes one unclean, and unfit to work in the temple. So when Yeshua called out asking why HaShem had forsaken Him. This was due to Yeshua feeling the Spirit leave Him. HaShem left Yeshua on the cross, just before His death.
In the end, it becomes clear to some that HaShem and Yeshua were one in the same. Yet HaShem being Holy, had to pull himself from that body to remain clean and Holy.
Sure would be nice to know I am not talking to my self. Though I don't really think anyone reading this will be willing to post. You see, most are so tiedd up in fitting in with the world that they fear rejection from man kind. Yet in the Word, we find that we are in the world, not of the world.

 

[FredVB]

First let us look at the easy answer to this. I am sure that we can all agree there is soething about Yeshua that is different than anyone we know. His use of scripture in answering when asked about topics by the leaders of religious law. As well when being tempted by Satan. He had the power to heal on demand, and even the waters obeyed His command. Hunger was something humans face, and it is clear that Yeshua also had need of food, although He did fast for 40 days. Something no human could do, and live.
No matter where you look we find that Yeshua seemed to hold both human and god like quilts. So what do say, was He HaShem made flesh, or just a man that is now worshiped? If we say He was a man, then why worship Him? After all that would place us in a dangerous place. Everyone will agree that to worship another god other than HaShem is sin. Yet at the same time we wish to worship 2 gods.
So can we find that we really only worship HaShem, and that it's ok to worship a man as well? I think not, and I do think, (if any one is reading this they would agree), Yeshua is more than just a man. He was in fact HaShem made fleash, and so was HaShem as He had said many times, and scripture made clear this is fact.
So how can it be? Well if we think about it, the man was filled with the spirit of HaShem, and once removed the man died. As seen on the cross. HaShem as well should know is Holy, and can't be looked on by man in all His glory. So in order to bring salvation to the world, He took on a human body, filled it with His spirit, and gave us a model to live by.
Knowing HaShem is Holy, and without sin, we should reason that He can't go against His own Laws. By his laws to touch a dead body makes one unclean, and unfit to work in the temple. So when Yeshua called out asking why HaShem had forsaken Him. This was due to Yeshua feeling the Spirit leave Him. HaShem left Yeshua on the cross, just before His death.
In the end, it becomes clear to some that HaShem and Yeshua were one in the same. Yet HaShem being Holy, had to pull himself from that body to remain clean and Holy.
Sure would be nice to know I am not talking to my self. Though I don't really think anyone reading this will be willing to post. You see, most are so tiedd up in fitting in with the world that they fear rejection from man kind. Yet in the Word, we find that we are in the world, not of the world.

I notice that Yeshua known generally as Jesus did not say at any time for others to worship him. Of course, he was different from any others. There were miraculous things from him, and pithy statements in his communication with so much knowledge of scripture which would be used in his communication. But profoundly he was never doing anything wrong, so it was that he had to be set up with false statements to be sentenced to execution by those wanting to get rid of him, no one could honestly say there was any sin in whatever he did.

We should be worshipping God, he even said so. There is just only one God, the one supreme being. And who is Yeshua known generally as Jesus? He has claim as the Son of God. From what? Luke has the basis in the gospel account, shown to start with in the first chapter. "He shall be called great and the son of the Highest, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of his father David." What came to his mother Mary with the power of God with God's Spirit on her was the incarnation, elsewhere shown to be the Word with God who is God. So from eternity there is a unity of the Word, and the Spirit, with the heavenly Father, being the one single supreme being, and not being limited at all. The incarnation, as a human among all those of humanity, was limited, but still in union as much with God, being called the Son of God, who we should hear and do as he says.

 

[Rainrider]

I notice that Yeshua known generally as Jesus did not say at any time for others to worship him. Of course, he was different from any others. There were miraculous things from him, and pithy statements in his communication with so much knowledge of scripture which would be used in his communication. But profoundly he was never doing anything wrong, so it was that he had to be set up with false statements to be sentenced to execution by those wanting to get rid of him, no one could honestly say there was any sin in whatever he did.

We should be worshipping God, he even said so. There is just only one God, the one supreme being. And who is Yeshua known generally as Jesus? He has claim as the Son of God. From what? Luke has the basis in the gospel account, shown to start with in the first chapter. "He shall be called great and the son of the Highest, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of his father David." What came to his mother Mary with the power of God with God's Spirit on her was the incarnation, elsewhere shown to be the Word with God who is God. So from eternity there is a unity of the Word, and the Spirit, with the heavenly Father, being the one single supreme being, and not being limited at all. The incarnation, as a human among all those of humanity, was limited, but still in union as much with God, being called the Son of God, who we should hear and do as he says.

You are 100% correct. We are to only worship Yahovah, HaShem, or god. I make no argument with that ever.
When one ask an open question like you have placed here, expect to hear things that may not fit with your understand, just I know I am going to be faced with a lot that myself.
I am going to start with number one and move down.
1- who is Yeshua This one question has sparked heated debate over time. Oddly I am not sure there will ever be a consensuses on this. Yet when one reads the first chapter of John, it seems to be clear that Yeshua and Yahovah are one in the same. Yet as we read other passages by the same author we find what can be seen as them being 2 completely beings.
Please read the following. John 6:46, John 14:9, and John 15:24.
It may seem that I trying to play both sides of the fence as it were. However when one seeks truth they must also consider anything that seems to stand in conflict with their understanding. Then try to reconcile them with the whole of Scripture. To do less can only reenforce something that may be wrong.

 

[FredVB]

You are 100% correct. We are to only worship Yahovah, HaShem, or god. I make no argument with that ever.
When one ask an open question like you have placed here, expect to hear things that may not fit with your understand, just I know I am going to be faced with a lot that myself.
I am going to start with number one and move down.
1- who is Yeshua This one question has sparked heated debate over time. Oddly I am not sure there will ever be a consensuses on this. Yet when one reads the first chapter of John, it seems to be clear that Yeshua and Yahovah are one in the same. Yet as we read other passages by the same author we find what can be seen as them being 2 completely beings.
Please read the following. John 6:46, John 14:9, and John 15:24.
It may seem that I trying to play both sides of the fence as it were. However when one seeks truth they must also consider anything that seems to stand in conflict with their understanding. Then try to reconcile them with the whole of Scripture. To do less can only reenforce something that may be wrong.

"When one ask an open question like you have placed here, expect to hear things that may not fit with your understand, just I know I am going to be faced with a lot that myself. ...However when one seeks truth they must also consider anything that seems to stand in conflict with their understanding. Then try to reconcile them with the whole of Scripture. To do less can only [reinforce] something that may be wrong."

You are right, to say this. For most things for faith there are some I would easily find who would disagree with what conclusions I have of those. And I have had to keep checking, and changing my thinking at times, and not always conclusively then. There is a process in which I just have hope that I am closer to the truth of things overall for faith than I have yet been.

"Yet when one reads the first chapter of John, it seems to be clear that Yeshua and Yahovah are one in the same. Yet as we read other passages by the same author we find what can be seen as them being 2 completely beings."

It is not at all conclusive that they are two completely separate beings. It is true that when you encounter any other beings they are not like two persons, who can speak in relationship with each other. But God is an infinite unlimited being, and essential being forever that everything else is conditionally existing from. We just can't understand this essential being, whose existence is necessary and not dependent on anything, as subject to what we understand about limited beings. That God would be corresponding to even two persons who speak in relationship with each other, that love was always eternal with them, and who share agreement in everything, does not make these two more than one being. The supreme being that is eternal is not more than one being.

So who is Yeshua known generally as Jesus? My answer to this is still that he is the incarnation, as a human being and limited as such, of the Word with God and who is God, Logos, according to that passage. So still, as there is but one God, not another being, but still the supreme being, this is with the heavenly Father who is God, and being God, the same being with the heavenly Father. The heavenly Father is not limited, Logos, the Word who is with God and who is God, is not limited, being infinite and eternal together, but the incarnation, who we generally know as Jesus, is limited, as human beings all are. I haven't found how I am wrong in this and there are others who have this conclusion.

 

[FredVB]

God being the essential being that is eternal, everywhere, all-knowing and without any limit being Creator of all else is love with subject and object, by necessity eternally, which is with Logos, the Word with God who is God, in total unity with the Father who is God eternally. And I see no reason to doubt the Spirit of God is involved in that, eternally. It still works with us going to the Bible with a thorough study of many passages. God models love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self-control, in all goodness and righteousness and truth, which should be showing from God's people, as fruits of the Spirit they would have.

 

[Rainrider]

On your thoughts of Yeshua, and HaShem. We talked at length on this in class some years back. Now keep in mind I did some years back, so I may get some of this wrong. At lest as what we were thinking back then.
We know that the human form wasn't HaShem, rather as we today see our own bodies as a shell, so to was His. Knowing that HaShem is Holy, in ways we as humans can't ever dream. If we work with His Laws, and understand that He also follows the same laws. The death of Yeshua would have defiled HaShem had He not recalled His spirit. That is what us to thinking like humans. LOL
We alll have 2 things, our body, and soul. For some of use, we have the added pleaser of HaShem sharing a part of His own spirit with us. It was when HaShem recalled His spirit, that Yeshua asked, why have you forsaken me?"
Though what we think we know can always be wrong, we must remain open to all forms of teachings. This is no exception. If Yeshua was human, (and all indications point that way). filled with the spirit of HaShem. Do we do our selves an injustice by worshiping Him? I think not, if we understand that it is through His sacrifice alone that salvation is what it is today. I will always give all glory to HaShem, and no other. He is the focus of my study, my love, and my worship.

 

[posthuman]

On your thoughts of Yeshua, and HaShem. We talked at length on this in class some years back. Now keep in mind I did some years back, so I may get some of this wrong. At lest as what we were thinking back then.
We know that the human form wasn't HaShem, rather as we today see our own bodies as a shell, so to was His. Knowing that HaShem is Holy, in ways we as humans can't ever dream. If we work with His Laws, and understand that He also follows the same laws. The death of Yeshua would have defiled HaShem had He not recalled His spirit. That is what us to thinking like humans. LOL
We alll have 2 things, our body, and soul. For some of use, we have the added pleaser of HaShem sharing a part of His own spirit with us. It was when HaShem recalled His spirit, that Yeshua asked, why have you forsaken me?"
Though what we think we know can always be wrong, we must remain open to all forms of teachings. This is no exception. If Yeshua was human, (and all indications point that way). filled with the spirit of HaShem. Do we do our selves an injustice by worshiping Him? I think not, if we understand that it is through His sacrifice alone that salvation is what it is today. I will always give all glory to HaShem, and no other. He is the focus of my study, my love, and my worship.

also known as the heresy of adoptionism.

 

[Rainrider]

also known as the heresy of adoptionism.

As you wish

 

[posthuman]

As you wish

others believing heresy certainly isn't my wish.

 

[posthuman]

how does the LORD say "they will look upon Me Whom they pierced" in Zechariah, if the human body is not Him, and if He was not pierced until after He had presented His Spirit?

 

[Rainrider]

how does the LORD say "they will look upon Me Whom they pierced" in Zechariah, if the human body is not Him, and if He was not pierced until after He had presented His Spirit?

As you wish

 

[FredVB]

God being the essential being that is eternal, everywhere, all-knowing and without any limit being Creator of all else is love with subject and object, by necessity eternally, which is with Logos, the Word with God who is God, in total unity with the Father who is God eternally. And I see no reason to doubt the Spirit of God is involved in that, eternally. It still works with us going to the Bible with a thorough study of many passages. God models love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self-control, in all goodness and righteousness and truth, which should be showing from God's people, as fruits of the Spirit they would have.

On your thoughts of Yeshua, and HaShem. We talked at length on this in class some years back. Now keep in mind I did some years back, so I may get some of this wrong. At lest as what we were thinking back then.
We know that the human form wasn't HaShem, rather as we today see our own bodies as a shell, so to was His. Knowing that HaShem is Holy, in ways we as humans can't ever dream. If we work with His Laws, and understand that He also follows the same laws. The death of Yeshua would have defiled HaShem had He not recalled His spirit. That is what us to thinking like humans. LOL
We alll have 2 things, our body, and soul. For some of use, we have the added pleaser of HaShem sharing a part of His own spirit with us. It was when HaShem recalled His spirit, that Yeshua asked, why have you forsaken me?"
Though what we think we know can always be wrong, we must remain open to all forms of teachings. This is no exception. If Yeshua was human, (and all indications point that way). filled with the spirit of HaShem. Do we do our selves an injustice by worshiping Him? I think not, if we understand that it is through His sacrifice alone that salvation is what it is today. I will always give all glory to HaShem, and no other. He is the focus of my study, my love, and my worship.

If there was not that unity as God and it was really God as spirit withdrawing from the human who is known as Christ, how was there sufficient sacrifice that was atonement for us? It was then just another man tortuously killed, and God let that happen! But that, which would not be justice, was enough for all of us to be redeemed? How are we in Christ? And there are many more problems with this. But knowing what our faith in Christ is, there are no such problematic inconsistencies with understanding the unity of Christ as the incarnation of Logos with the heavenly Father as God. He is God with God and there is only one God, and God is the one savior. The unity in being is explaining all those things, there was, is, and always will be agreement in everything and never any disagreement. There was effective sacrifice for atonement for all of us coming to Christ, that could only come from God, bearing all that none of us could bear, for that, and no merely created man could.

 

[Rainrider]

If there was not that unity as God and it was really God as spirit withdrawing from the human who is known as Christ, how was there sufficient sacrifice that was atonement for us? It was then just another man tortuously killed, and God let that happen! But that, which would not be justice, was enough for all of us to be redeemed? How are we in Christ? And there are many more problems with this. But knowing what our faith in Christ is, there are no such problematic inconsistencies with understanding the unity of Christ as the incarnation of Logos with the heavenly Father as God. He is God with God and there is only one God, and God is the one savior. The unity in being is explaining all those things, there was, is, and always will be agreement in everything and never any disagreement. There was effective sacrifice for atonement for all of us coming to Christ, that could only come from God, bearing all that none of us could bear, for that, and no merely created man could.

As you made clear HaShem is Eternal, meaning that He is immortal. As He came to us in human form, only the Human part could give His life, and did so willingly. Having lived His life in perfect obedience to HaShem's laws He was the perfect sacrifice for sin. When we try to limit HaShem, and place His understandings in the box of our own understanding, we diminish His true power and glory.
Yeshua was not just another man, He was a man that was filled with the spirit of HaShem, and unlike Enoch who never tasted death, gave his life freely. John 10:18. As we know Yeshua did ask that this cup be passed from him, yet He also said, Not my will but yours be done.
When we except that sacrifice, and know that it was a gift rather than an unjust killing, we must open our hearts and minds to the truth we find in His Word. In that word, we find that Yeshua was HaShem, in human form, as noted above.
As to how Yeshua became the final sacrifice for sin. When one looks at and understands the sacrificial system, we see Yeshua in them. To be an acceptable sacrifice the lamb must be without spot or blemish, (sin in this case), must never have broken any bone, and so. Yeshua fulfilled this, and hence was accepted by HaShem. His blood washes away our sin, rather than just covering it as the animal sacrifices did.
We are with HaShem in our actions, and desirous, just as Yeshua walked with HaShem in His life. This is where unity comes in. You see when we as humans unite with HaShem, ( give our lives to Him) we also become one in every aspect of our lives. Ho we do come up short, as we let down our guard, and slip. Sadly sin a part of man kind, and not many have ever walked a perfect life.
In closing. HaShem accepted the sacrifice. That is all that is needed for our sins to be washed clean. There is no inconsistency in this line of thinking, until we try to build them from our limited understanding of HaShem.

 

[Rainrider]

God being the essential being that is eternal, everywhere, all-knowing and without any limit being Creator of all else is love with subject and object, by necessity eternally, which is with Logos, the Word with God who is God, in total unity with the Father who is God eternally. And I see no reason to doubt the Spirit of God is involved in that, eternally. It still works with us going to the Bible with a thorough study of many passages. God models love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self-control, in all goodness and righteousness and truth, which should be showing from God's people, as fruits of the Spirit they would have.

You may wish to give a short read to the post The rigth way to learn. In that thread you will find a more detailed answer to your question.

 

[FredVB]

As you made clear HaShem is Eternal, meaning that He is immortal. As He came to us in human form, only the Human part could give His life, and did so willingly. Having lived His life in perfect obedience to HaShem's laws He was the perfect sacrifice for sin. When we try to limit HaShem, and place His understandings in the box of our own understanding, we diminish His true power and glory.
Yeshua was not just another man, He was a man that was filled with the spirit of HaShem, and unlike Enoch who never tasted death, gave his life freely. John 10:18. As we know Yeshua did ask that this cup be passed from him, yet He also said, Not my will but yours be done.
When we except that sacrifice, and know that it was a gift rather than an unjust killing, we must open our hearts and minds to the truth we find in His Word. In that word, we find that Yeshua was HaShem, in human form, as noted above.
As to how Yeshua became the final sacrifice for sin. When one looks at and understands the sacrificial system, we see Yeshua in them. To be an acceptable sacrifice the lamb must be without spot or blemish, (sin in this case), must never have broken any bone, and so. Yeshua fulfilled this, and hence was accepted by HaShem. His blood washes away our sin, rather than just covering it as the animal sacrifices did.
We are with HaShem in our actions, and desirous, just as Yeshua walked with HaShem in His life. This is where unity comes in. You see when we as humans unite with HaShem, ( give our lives to Him) we also become one in every aspect of our lives. Ho we do come up short, as we let down our guard, and slip. Sadly sin a part of man kind, and not many have ever walked a perfect life.
In closing. HaShem accepted the sacrifice. That is all that is needed for our sins to be washed clean. There is no inconsistency in this line of thinking, until we try to build them from our limited understanding of HaShem.

Immortality is something that can be given, but only God, who is eternal, and the Creator who gives life, can give it, and it can be given just to physical beings, that would then have immortality given them. In this life we do not have that. It will be for the future when there will be those given that, with all sin washed away and there being no more sin from them.

The redeemed are still to come to obedience from repentance they came to, in all of God's will shown for us. And there is the design from God shown to us that matters much in that.

The human who was the incarnation of Logos who is God died, but a man dying is not enough, even the one who is sinless, for all others, it was not just for Adam's sin, all other sin is dealt with, through this atonement or apart from him for those not coming to him. So, then, Logos who is with God and is the same God suffered the judgment for atonement entirely, that Logos alone could do, for all of that. We cannot understand how much that was, it is beyond what any human could bear. The human form that died yet was raised alive again, as needed, the incarnation was not done away, and we who come to Chrìst will still be united in fellowship seeing him, which we are secured for.

Animal sacrifices being done, as they were done anyway, whether the people were told to or not, with the regulations were referred to as representing the need for atonement, that could only be through Christ, and animal sacrifices were not effective any more than for showing that need, that what Christ was doing would be seen.

We all need that, even Enoch who was taken without death first, and some will still be taken as prophesied, Enoch and all are still covered being in Christ, that any sins are not in the way that they would otherwise bear in judgment.

Of course in voluntary limitation as a man Christ could not be sure there was not another way, but he was still the only way as he said at other times and this meant he had to bear it all for atonement available to us, and so he submitted to it, this was the will of God, for us that would have atonement available to us, or it never would be, and there would be no hope ultimately for us, with judgment on all sin. Only Christ, as Logos, could bear that, the human incarnation then dying with the blood shed, yet rising again at the right time as said.

You may wish to give a short read to the post The rigth way to learn. In that thread you will find a more detailed answer to your question.

I did not find that you linked to a thread for that. I am not going to anything off-site for this topic but I can read a post in a thread in this forums site for this.