GIANTS

[trofimus]

The giants were fallen angels

If the giants were fallen angels, where are demons from?

We know that the fallen angels are kept in a prison, in darkness, bound and waiting for the judgement. Demons are quite free and active.

The prison would not be literal in such case, meaning only some limitation with no exit (to a higher dimension they first were?)

 

[sevenseas]

If the giants were fallen angels, where are demons from?

We know that the fallen angels are kept in a prison, in darkness, bound and waiting for the judgement. Demons are quite free and active.

The prison would not be literal in such case, meaning only some limitation with no exit (to a higher dimension they first were?)

Personally, I tend to think or believe, that demons are disembodied spirits and not fallen angels. Spirits of who or what exactly is not told to us. We actually know very little about the world human beings once lived in and we walk around like we are all flesh and blood when there is an entire realm most of us know very little about.

I don't sit around thinking about it all day or trying to splice together the little we do know, but I think it is ignorance of scripture that would result in a Christian thinking you get saved, live your life, die and then get promoted to heaven. That is a very shallow experience.

Jesus said that demons inhabit a dry place and seek for a body to enter.

 

[sevenseas]

I have always heard that Goliath was 9'6", where did you get 6'9"? According to the bible Goliath was 6 cubits and a span, I think a cubit was from the finger tips of an average man to the elbow, that was about 18". I have measured myself and from my finger tips to my elbow is right at 18" and I am not very tall. I think there was some Asian woman who was over 8 feet. Folks like that are unique things in nature and have normal parents and are usually weak and do not live long. The giants in the OT were an actual race of people. That one giant had a bed 13X6'. Either he liked a lot of room or else he was vey big.

Most texts do have him at over 9 feet tall. I think stating he was 9 feet several inches is an attempt to prove a personal belief.

Apparently, there is a Greek translation of the Septuagint that records Goliath's height at the 6 ft +

Why go to a Greek translation when the originals, in Hebrew, indicate his height at over 9 feet?

 

[trofimus]

Personally, I tend to think or believe, that demons are disembodied spirits and not fallen angels. Spirits of who or what exactly is not told to us. We actually know very little about the world human beings once lived in and we walk around like we are all flesh and blood when there is an entire realm most of us know very little about.

I don't sit around thinking about it all day or trying to splice together the little we do know, but I think it is ignorance of scripture that would result in a Christian thinking you get saved, live your life, die and then get promoted to heaven. That is a very shallow experience.

Jesus said that demons inhabit a dry place and seek for a body to enter.

I personally believe what the book of Enoch says regarding this matter. Demons are the children of angels and women, who died during the flood. But because they were half-angels, they are stuck here on the Earth, looking desperately for a body to inhabit. Thats why demons always try to get inside somebody or even animals.

The view they are fallen angels can be also possible, but in that case the prison Jude is talking about must not be literal but is more about their desperate situation.

 

[trofimus]

Why go to a Greek translation when the originals, in Hebrew, indicate his height at over 9 feet?

We do not have Hebrew originals, Greek translation is much more older than the Hebrew texts that are from the middle ages.
Septuagint was written before our Lord was born and is, therefore, more original, even though the language is different.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Megenta, I told you that I am not a tall man yet from the tips of my fingers to by elbow is at least 18 inches, maybe a little more, unless the Israelis were well under five feet, Goliath had to be close to 10 feet tall. His coat of metal weighted 150 pounds and the head of his spear weighted 25 pounds, that would make Goliath a huge brute of a man. Saul was much taller then the other Israelis yet he would not even consider going against Goliath. You said Goliath was 6'6", I used to be friends with a man that size and though he was much taller then me I could physically overpower him. Common sense should tell us that the entire Israelis army would not run from a man who was just six foot six inches(Saul was probably that tall). The context of the story tells us that Goliath was a huge brute of a man, notwithstanding what Josephus and something in the dead sea scrolls may have implied.

 

[Hungry]

Most texts do have him at over 9 feet tall. I think stating he was 9 feet several inches is an attempt to prove a personal belief.

Apparently, there is a Greek translation of the Septuagint that records Goliath's height at the 6 ft +

Why go to a Greek translation when the originals, in Hebrew, indicate his height at over 9 feet?

I think the digits are just as significant as the height. Who determined what the height of men were? If that's what we are basing a cubit on, did they find pencil marks on the door frames in ancient cities?

 

[samuel23]

Ok, if one translation has the height of Goliath at 6'6" and the other translation has Goliath at 9'6" then it is for sure that one translation is wrong in the matter. So we turn to the context, the entire army of Israel run in fear when they seen the man. I am well under six foot and I would not run from a 6'6'' man, I have actually wrestled with an individual of that size and got the upper hand(I am strongly built). So the context favors to the extreme 9'6" as in most bibles. Sigh! Folks the context will explain most things.

 

[sevenseas]

I personally believe what the book of Enoch says regarding this matter. Demons are the children of angels and women, who died during the flood. But because they were half-angels, they are stuck here on the Earth, looking desperately for a body to inhabit. Thats why demons always try to get inside somebody or even animals.

The view they are fallen angels can be also possible, but in that case the prison Jude is talking about must not be literal but is more about their desperate situation.

Well, the problem there is that the Bible does not say what demons are other than evil spirits.

There are plenty of guesses about them but no clear conclusive evidence.

I would not state with certainty what they are when the Bible does not do so. That's how I view it.

We do not have Hebrew originals, Greek translation is much more older than the Hebrew texts that are from the middle ages.
Septuagint was written before our Lord was born and is, therefore, more original, even though the language is different.

We don't? Moses spoke Greek?

Of course the Septuagint was written before Christ (BC) as it is the Greek translation of the Old Testament from the Hebrew.

The Septuagint is actually the Greek translation of the Jewish scriptures. Please consider the timeline here. It appears you have things reversed.

 

[samuel23]

Some folks believe that evil or unclean spirits are not the same as angels that have went with Satan, I am inclined to believe this also. The angels both good and bad seem to have bodies, while unclean spirits are just spirits who seem to desperately want to enter a body so that they can have some kind of satisfaction in this world of physical bodies. Where did the unclean spirits come from, the bible is not specific, but it could be that they were beings who lived on the earth in the past and their bodies were destroyed yet their spirits remain on the earth unsatisfied because they need a physical body in this physical realm.

 

[trofimus]

Well, the problem there is that the Bible does not say what demons are other than evil spirits.

There are plenty of guesses about them but no clear conclusive evidence.

I would not state with certainty what they are when the Bible does not do so. That's how I view it.

The book of Enoch is the closest source we have. It is not in the Bible canon, but still it is quoted in the Bible. And actually, what the book says
about demons, makes sense. But yes, there is still some place for errors.

We don't? Moses spoke Greek?

Of course the Septuagint was written before Christ (BC) as it is the Greek translation of the Old Testament from the Hebrew.

The Septuagint is actually the Greek translation of the Jewish scriptures. Please consider the timeline here. It appears you have things reversed.

You dont understand. We do not have the originals Moses or prophets have written down. We have today:
a) Greek Septuagint from the 2nd century BC
b) Hebrew massoretic Jewish texts from 900 AC
c) Qumran texts from the 1st century that are partly agreeing with Septuagint, partly with Hebrew massoretic texts, partly with nothing.

So what is the most original texts of the Old Testament we have? The Septuagint. Yes, Moses did not speak Greek, but we do not have the originals.

 

[JosephsDreams]

If Shaq, a well built man proportionally speaking, was 300 / 320 pounds at 7'1" feet tall, you can bet Goliath, carrying around on him a 150 pound metal armor, and a throwing a spear with 25 pound spear head (try throwing a 25 pound olympic sized plate any distance for comparison) was around 9 feet and 6 inches or so tall. You can also believe that he was easily tipping the scales at 450 pounds or maybe even more. Remember that in the worlds strongest men contests you have men that are 6 feet and 2 or 3 or 4 inches tall that weigh around 300 to 375 pounds and even more.

See bio for Brian Shaw. He is 6'8' and weighs 420 pounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Shaw_(strongman)

So it is no stretch to imagine that Goliath at 9 feet 6 inches tall could have weighed as much as 600 to 700 pounds. With a armor of 150 pounds and a spear head that weighed 25 pounds, I actually think he was closer to the 600 to 700 pound weight then the 450 pound weight, although naturally you can not say for sure. But you can make a educated guess.

To put it another way, this guy was not to much smaller then a healthy bear, and maybe even bigger then some of adult bears. Maybe as strong as some of them to.

You don't think all of Israel wouldn't be scared of this monster?

Again, to look at it another way, the NBA, full of strong and tall and physically gifted men, would not take on Shaq or Wilt in a fight. None of them would. Yet in this case your talking about guys that are usually "only" 5 to 8 inches smaller then a Shaq or Wilt. But all the NBA knew how devestatingly strong they were.

So now imagine a average sized Israeli at around 5'10" and 200 pounds. How, without the courage of God in them, could they not be frightened so much that they probably wished that this nightmare of a man would just go away.

This is why David was such a hero.

 

[Magenta]

Why go to a Greek translation when the originals, in Hebrew, indicate his height at over 9 feet?

It is so interesting to discover what other people believe, for instance, your belief that the Dead Sea Scroll of Samuel was written in Greek.

To what original texts do you refer? I was under the distinct impression that the general consensus is, we do not have original texts. The Septuagint is older than some of the Hebrew texts, despite your denial and apparent confusion with Trofimus. Why are you overlooking the FACT that a Hebrew text was given that provides Goliath's height as being less than seven feet?

The oldest texts have Goliath's height at closer to seven feet. I offer this fact for the consideration of all reading the thread, as well as the fact that very tall people exist into this age. You also seem to diss the Septuagint though it was used by the apostles, and was a translation of older texts than say the Masoretic texts in Hebrew. Your original language theory being superior in this case therefore is full of holes.

It is like your saying that a simple reading of the text reveals a certain thing when no such thing is initially evident at all to support your claim. However, even a six year old can understand that each reproduce after their own kind, and that angels and humans are of different kinds. If you wish to overlook those clear teachings of Scripture, that is certainly your prerogative. I offer them for the consideration of those with a mind open to Scriptural truths.

The earliest Hebrew manuscript, 4QSam(a), which dates to the middle of the first century BC, reads “4 cubits and a span.” Hays points out that this particular manuscript is 1,000 years older than our earliest copy of the MT (935 AD), although he admits that the reading “6 cubits and a span” found in the MT goes back to at least 200 AD.“The major early Septuagint texts all have this reading.” Hays also notes that Josephus refers to Goliath’s height as “4 cubits and a span.”

Hays points out the well-known fact that the MT of 1&2 Samuel has a number of scribal errors. Furthermore, although 1 Chronicles does not include the story of David and Goliath, he notes that where 1 Chronicles is parallel with 1&2 Samuel, Chronicles always agrees with the reading of 4QSam(a) and the LXX when it differs from the MT. Hays also argues that it is much easier to explain how “4 cubits” was changed to “6 cubits” rather than the other way around. The word for “cubit” in verse 4 and “hundred” in verse 7 look very similar in Hebrew. Hays says that a scribe copying the manuscript accidentally looked down at verse 7 and saw the number “6” (as in six hundred) and copied it into verse 4. This is a well-known copying mistake called “parablepsis” (“a looking by the side”).

The story never refers to Goliath as a giant. This is an interesting observation frequently overlooked. Although the story clearly does reference Goliath’s size, which would be intimidating whether 4 or 6 cubits is the correct reading, it does not focus on it.

Some argue that the weight of Goliath’s weaponry and armor better fits someone who is 6 cubits rather than 4. However, Hays goes to great lengths to demonstrate that regular-sized people (e.g., in the military) often carry this kind of weight.

Saul’s answer to David as to why he cannot fight him
references Goliath’s skill as a warrior, not his height.

Some argue against the “4 cubits and a span” reading by saying if Saul was “head and shoulders” taller than anyone else in Israel, and the average Israelite was 5 feet to 5'3″, then Saul would be nearly as tall as Goliath. Hays says that this is precisely the point! Tall Saul should have been the one to face tall Goliath. The interest of the story is to demonstrate Saul’s fear and lack of faith, as he was the most likely candidate to confront Goliath. The Dead Sea Scrolls - Introduction

Aside from all that, y'all are overlooking the very salient fact that giants still exist into our more modern day and age. That was the point of the first post of this series, comparing the height of a fairly modern man (Robert Wadlow, whose birthday was yesterday) to Goliath's. Goliath was said to be related to Nephilim. Was Robert Wadlow a Nephilim, also? Perhaps he was instead related to the Anakim, Zuzim, Emim, or Rephaim? The point is that people still grow to extreme sizes. Got questions has this to say, also:

So where did these giants come from? One theory, based on Genesis 6:1–4, is that fallen angels (the sons of God) had sexual relations with women, resulting in the birth of giants. This is remarkably similar to Greek and Roman myths about demi-gods, but the theory has some theological and biological obstacles. Another theory, also based on Genesis 6, is that the fallen angels, having knowledge of human genetics, indwelt certain men and women who would have the right traits to produce a race of giants and induced them to cohabit with each other. A third theory is that the giants were simply the result of normal genetic variability within a society. Whatever the origin of the Rephaim, it is certain that a race of “giants”—strong, tall people—did exist at one time, and many cultures had dealings with them. Even today, there are people who grow to extreme sizes, whether through genetic disorders like gigantism or through normal heredity.

I started writing this post at home before leaving for work, so some
of the points may have been covered by others in the meantime

My apologies also for the length of this post.

 

[sevenseas]

trofimus;2993370]The book of Enoch is the closest source we have. It is not in the Bible canon, but still it is quoted in the Bible. And actually, what the book says
about demons, makes sense. But yes, there is still some place for errors.

well that's how I see it. we have incomplete information but enough to know they exist and are very active in the world

You dont understand. We do not have the originals Moses or prophets have written down. We have today:
a) Greek Septuagint from the 2nd century BC
b) Hebrew massoretic Jewish texts from 900 AC
c) Qumran texts from the 1st century that are partly agreeing with Septuagint, partly with Hebrew massoretic texts, partly with nothing.

So what is the most original texts of the Old Testament we have? The Septuagint. Yes, Moses did not speak Greek, but we do not have the originals.

But I do understand and where do you suppose the Greek came from?

I suggest you follow up on your conclusions with an in depth study into the Septuagint and the original Hebrew OT

It's far more complicated than any post I'm going to make, but you should know that some scholars are now questioning the authenticity of the Septuagint

The Septuagint is the earliest known translation from the Hebrew, not the oldest manuscript

here are a couple of links to verify what I say above as well as information you might consider

ONE

TWO

It's really pretty fascinating but tedious to go through all of it and I haven't actually done that myself but I do know that working off the Septuagint only is not the best way to go

There are Hebrew OT writings older than the Greek copy

 

[BeyondET]

[video=youtube;Glent8xwAL4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glent8xwAL4[/video]

 

[JIMBO43]

You also seem to diss the Septuagint though it was used by the apostles, and was a translation of older texts than say the Masoretic texts in Hebrew. Your original language theory being superior in this case therefore is full of holes.

According to traditional history the apostles also used the boof of enoch as God inspired text..

 

[JIMBO43]

angels and humans are of different kinds.

I wonder how much diffrence there is in spirit.. ???? do you really know that ?

Fact women can give birth to the spirit... fact..

 

[sevenseas]

http://www.bibleodyssey.org/tools/bible-basics/what-are-the-earliest-versions-and-translations-of-the-bible.aspx


It is so interesting to discover what other people believe, for instance, your belief that the Dead Sea Scroll of Samuel was written in Greek.

To what original texts do you refer? I was under the distinct impression that the general consensus is, we do not have original texts. The Septuagint is older than some of the Hebrew texts, despite your denial and apparent confusion with Trofimus. Why are you overlooking the FACT that a Hebrew text was given that provides Goliath's height as being less than seven feet?

The oldest texts have Goliath's height at closer to seven feet. I offer this fact for the consideration of all reading the thread, as well as the fact that very tall people exist into this age. You also seem to diss the Septuagint though it was used by the apostles, and was a translation of older texts than say the Masoretic texts in Hebrew. Your original language theory being superior in this case therefore is full of holes.

It is like your saying that a simple reading of the text reveals a certain thing when no such thing is initially evident at all to support your claim. However, even a six year old can understand that each reproduce after their own kind, and that angels and humans are of different kinds. If you wish to overlook those clear teachings of Scripture, that is certainly your prerogative. I offer them for the consideration of those with a mind open to Scriptural truths.

The earliest Hebrew manuscript, 4QSam(a), which dates to the middle of the first century BC, reads “4 cubits and a span.” Hays points out that this particular manuscript is 1,000 years older than our earliest copy of the MT (935 AD), although he admits that the reading “6 cubits and a span” found in the MT goes back to at least 200 AD.“The major early Septuagint texts all have this reading.” Hays also notes that Josephus refers to Goliath’s height as “4 cubits and a span.”

Hays points out the well-known fact that the MT of 1&2 Samuel has a number of scribal errors. Furthermore, although 1 Chronicles does not include the story of David and Goliath, he notes that where 1 Chronicles is parallel with 1&2 Samuel, Chronicles always agrees with the reading of 4QSam(a) and the LXX when it differs from the MT. Hays also argues that it is much easier to explain how “4 cubits” was changed to “6 cubits” rather than the other way around. The word for “cubit” in verse 4 and “hundred” in verse 7 look very similar in Hebrew. Hays says that a scribe copying the manuscript accidentally looked down at verse 7 and saw the number “6” (as in six hundred) and copied it into verse 4. This is a well-known copying mistake called “parablepsis” (“a looking by the side”).

The story never refers to Goliath as a giant. This is an interesting observation frequently overlooked. Although the story clearly does reference Goliath’s size, which would be intimidating whether 4 or 6 cubits is the correct reading, it does not focus on it.

Some argue that the weight of Goliath’s weaponry and armor better fits someone who is 6 cubits rather than 4. However, Hays goes to great lengths to demonstrate that regular-sized people (e.g., in the military) often carry this kind of weight.

Saul’s answer to David as to why he cannot fight him
references Goliath’s skill as a warrior, not his height.

Some argue against the “4 cubits and a span” reading by saying if Saul was “head and shoulders” taller than anyone else in Israel, and the average Israelite was 5 feet to 5'3″, then Saul would be nearly as tall as Goliath. Hays says that this is precisely the point! Tall Saul should have been the one to face tall Goliath. The interest of the story is to demonstrate Saul’s fear and lack of faith, as he was the most likely candidate to confront Goliath. The Dead Sea Scrolls - Introduction

Aside from all that, y'all are overlooking the very salient fact that giants still exist into our more modern day and age. That was the point of the first post of this series, comparing the height of a fairly modern man (Robert Wadlow, whose birthday was yesterday) to Goliath's. Goliath was said to be related to Nephilim. Was Robert Wadlow a Nephilim, also? Perhaps he was instead related to the Anakim, Zuzim, Emim, or Rephaim? The point is that people still grow to extreme sizes. Got questions has this to say, also:

So where did these giants come from? One theory, based on Genesis 6:1–4, is that fallen angels (the sons of God) had sexual relations with women, resulting in the birth of giants. This is remarkably similar to Greek and Roman myths about demi-gods, but the theory has some theological and biological obstacles. Another theory, also based on Genesis 6, is that the fallen angels, having knowledge of human genetics, indwelt certain men and women who would have the right traits to produce a race of giants and induced them to cohabit with each other. A third theory is that the giants were simply the result of normal genetic variability within a society. Whatever the origin of the Rephaim, it is certain that a race of “giants”—strong, tall people—did exist at one time, and many cultures had dealings with them. Even today, there are people who grow to extreme sizes, whether through genetic disorders like gigantism or through normal heredity.

I started writing this post at home before leaving for work, so some
of the points may have been covered by others in the meantime

My apologies also for the length of this post.

Hi Magenta

Maybe see my post above to trofimus. It has been quite a while since I actually studied all of it, but there have been new discoveries as well. I think the 2 links I provided have some well documented information, but it's probably heavy reading. I am miserably behind on my reading and study now, but I will have to add this to the list.

I don't follow what you are referring to in your first sentence.

It is so interesting to discover what other people believe, for instance, your belief that the Dead Sea Scroll of Samuel was written in Greek. [QUOTE/]

I don't know where I said this?

I think a better conversation might be had, because I really do find all this very interesting and worth discussing, without making statements such as:

The Septuagint is older than some of the Hebrew texts, despite your denial and apparent confusion with Trofimus. Why are you overlooking the FACT that a Hebrew text was given that provides Goliath's height as being less than seven feet?

It does not help when you try to make it appear I am dumb or confused (yes I know you didn't say dumb, but there is a superior attitude coming across that you may not realize you are exhibiting when you talk to someone that way) The majority of texts conclude Goliath was over 9 feet

Why would you say I diss the Septuagint? Are you or not interested in fact?

I'm not sure how to respond to you because it seems you want to argue as you did with others in this thread and I don't have time for that.

Try just being factual without inserting other people's emotions or attitudes which you really do not know very much about.

I'm not trying to offend, but I'm not sure whether I should answer your questions or defend myself against your interpretations

That's an interesting way to respond that you have developed. It's designed to put people on the defensive and I'm not interesting in being pushed down that slope.

You do not believe that angels had intercourse with human women. I do believe they did.

Many want to gloss over Genesis 6 and say the sons of God referred to the lineage of Seth. I don't believe that. You appear to believe that.

I'll take some time and read over the rest of your post but the above is my impression of your response.

 

[Magenta]

It makes it much easier to understand how something like Scientology gains such a stronghold... or how all the Von Däniken writings reach such a wide audience. I wonder that Jesus never said anything about fallen angels copulating with humans and producing offspring? I am glad it is not a salvation issue, at any rate. It is quite disturbing to think God would have allowed angels to forcibly have sex with women... perhaps all the more so due to how serious an issue sex is in itself.

 

[BeyondET]

[video=youtube;ttSNOoCknIM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttSNOoCknIM[/video]