God Create Evil?

[tek]

I don’t think Isaiah 45:7 should be translated either as “evil” or “disaster”

Notice the composition of the sentence

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things


The word “evil” should be understood as the opposite or antonym of the word “peace”

Exactly the same theme is in this verse here

Mathew 10: 34,35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


So it’s not “evil” or "disasater" that God creates but rather spiritual "unrest", "turmoil", "discord", "change", "disquiet" or even "state of war"

 

[jimmydiggs]

What I gather is that God sometimes use other nations as instruments of chastisement.

Yes, he is using the Assyrians for judgement.

5 Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
6 Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

What do you think it means when it says in verse six, ".. I send him..." and "... I command him..."?

Please remind me what we were talking about for you to ask me this, I forgot.

The Sovereignty of God over wickedness.

 

[cfultz3]

I agree in concept. Free will allows us to make choices. Intellect allows us to understand our human nature, desires, and emotions and to control them with a system of precepts of right living and warnings against what is evil or can lead to evil (the last of the commandments address evil). Attitude helps us approach life's testings and possible temptations with a motive of self denial, self control and love of others.

What Isaiah is saying here tho, is that there is just ONE system, and ONE God. He does this to specifically address and refute Zoroastrianism and Ahura Mazda and its other gods, and elsewhere in his writings Mithra. God has 'carved out' in the tablets of the ten commandments, that which is good and that which is evil (thou shalt not kill, not steal, not commit adultery, not bear false witness, not covet).

These precepts are taken to an even higher level when messiah comes and Jesus teaches the sermon on the mount, the lessons of the parables and the many other teachings, warnings and admonitions of the system of The Way. This is the system that overcomes the Pharisaical system of false law, false religion, false money collection, taxation and oppression. What a terrible thing it is, and will be, to f

GreenNNice goes on to say that we are to submit to authorities and pay our taxes, which indeed we are. However, we are not to submit to a false god and these false teachings. In time, the money changers of today and their temples of worship will fall. But before us is Marxism, Fascism, Global Religion and a system of taxation and spending on entitlements and welfare and the Medical Industrial Complex that intends to enslave and oppress many. This is only to be overcome in patient dilligence in right living and teaching repentance and self denial, to overcome the systems of man's pride and greed and lust. These temples too must fall as they are not established by God, but by man. This is the essence of this section of Isaiah. Perhaps another thread will fully explore these issues more. It is an important and worthwhile study.

2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
​

Having pondered upon this, this is the conclusion I have come to and correct me if I am wrong: God, by His commandments, has decreed what is good by the first 5 (the Light) and what is evil by the second 5 (the Darkness). And by the frist set, He makes peace and with the second set, He brings destruction.

Do not be afraid to correct me on this.

 

[cfultz3]

Yes, he is using the Assyrians for judgement.

5 Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
6 Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

What do you think it means when it says in verse six, ".. I send him..." and "... I command him..."?


The Sovereignty of God over wickedness.

I believe it means that He will and does use those who are wicked, although not having been the cause of that wickedness, to fulfill His will, seeing that He is the Potter.

I can see where God, in His Sovereignty, can control wickedness, but I cannot/do not see where He is the source of wickedness, seeing that 'evil' is a state lacking the goodness which of God.

 

[cfultz3]

I don’t think Isaiah 45:7 should be translated either as “evil” or “disaster”

Notice the composition of the sentence

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things


The word “evil” should be understood as the opposite or antonym of the word “peace”

Exactly the same theme is in this verse here

Mathew 10: 34,35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


So it’s not “evil” or "disasater" that God creates but rather spiritual "unrest", "turmoil", "discord", "change", "disquiet" or even "state of war"

I agree with you here on the list of different words. The word 'calamity' defines all of these words both spiritually (both Heavenly and a person's spirit) and physically (both a nation and an indivdually). The Word of God is differently lively. You agree?

 

[jimmydiggs]

I believe it means that He will and does use those who are wicked, although not having been the cause of that wickedness, to fulfill His will, seeing that He is the Potter.

Does not the bolded statements show that God is the primary mover? It says "I send him", not "I allow" or "I use".

I can see where God, in His Sovereignty, can control wickedness, but I cannot/do not see where He is the source of wickedness, seeing that 'evil' is a state lacking the goodness which of God.

"Source" of wickedness I think is inaccurate, due to our usage of the word source.

I do want to know though if you've ever read the following verse.

Acts 2:23
23 this Jesus,[a] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Jesus was ordained by God to die, it wasn't strictly passive. Yet, he was murdered. Is God now evil? No. Somehow in his infinite wisdom, God can ordain all things and not compromise his character/nature.

What about this?

1 Peter 2:8
and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

 

[cfultz3]

Does not the bolded statements show that God is the primary mover? It says "I send him", not "I allow" or "I use". I have absolutely no problem with God in His Sovenignty over all things, even allowing Satan to have his way with Job. I agree with you that He sents 'evil (things that cause harm)' upon the wickedness of the wicked, but I simply cannot see that moral wickedness comes from Him, seeing that no evil dwells in Him (hence, the usage of the word 'source (from)').


"Source" of wickedness I think is inaccurate, due to our usage of the word source. In your opinion, where does moral wickedness 'come from' (source)?

I do want to know though if you've ever read the following verse.

Acts 2:23
23 this Jesus,[a] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Jesus was ordained by God to die, it wasn't strictly passive. Yet, he was murdered. Is God now evil? No. Somehow in his infinite wisdom, God can ordain all things and not compromise his character/nature. -- I also accept God's foreordained salvational plan, in all it's decrees. Although God knew what was to happen to the Son, He used the wickedness of the wicked for the good of His plan. Of course, He did not comprimise His character, because He was not the One who murdered Jesus. I think you and I agree more than either would like to admit But I do not and cannot see where God is the creator or moral wickedness, but do see Him as the Avenger of such. Maybe, you are not understanding my dilemma? God is Soverign but does not create wickedness, but uses it for good. If this is what you are saying also, then we are in agreement.

What about this?

1 Peter 2:8
and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

.............

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

Having pondered upon this, this is the conclusion I have come to and correct me if I am wrong: God, by His commandments, has decreed what is good by the first 5 (the Light) and what is evil by the second 5 (the Darkness). And by the frist set, He makes peace and with the second set, He brings destruction.

Do not be afraid to correct me on this.

Generally I agree. I believe TEK has the right idea that goes a bit further in relating - 'do not think I come to bring Peace, but a Sword ...'

Sometimes the word 'SWORD' is rendered as DIVISION.

The intent is really not to bring evil or destruction or division or calamity. However, the refusal and continual practice of behaviors that goes against the precepts of the last five commandments tends to indeed bring, in and of itself societal chaos, which in turn will bring destruction, calamity, division, a sword -- 'evil' if you will.

This is all cause and effect (sowing and reaping, being outside of grace). Neither the law nor the teachings of Jesus are intended for evil, but rather for good in that keeping the law avoids these things.

Better yet, living the law by the precepts of an understanding, mindset and attitude of the intent (spirit vs letter) of the law is an affirmative approach to a peaceful society, that tends to step away from law and legalism that leads to:

Jehovah, Calvinism, Pharisaical zealousness, Police State, and the 'god over evil' concept of Zoroastrianism -- the subject of Isaiah's writing.
​

This all then gets back to the idea of God being one 'hear O' Israel the Lord your God is One God' cited in Deuteronomy 6:4 and in Mark 12:29

P.S.
It is for another, but related discussion, to say that Zoroaster was associated with Daniel during the time of captivity in Persia. It appears that some Zoroastrian concepts began to creep into Jewish customs if not teaching, and may be the subject of mention in scripture after the return from exile.

 

[cfultz3]

Generally I agree. I believe TEK has the right idea that goes a bit further in relating - 'do not think I come to bring Peace, but a Sword ...'

Sometimes the word 'SWORD' is rendered as DIVISION.

The intent is really not to bring evil or destruction or division or calamity. However, the refusal and continual practice of behaviors that goes against the precepts of the last five commandments tends to indeed bring, in and of itself societal chaos, which in turn will bring destruction, calamity, division, a sword -- 'evil' if you will.

This is all cause and effect (sowing and reaping, being outside of grace). Neither the law nor the teachings of Jesus are intended for evil, but rather for good in that keeping the law avoids these things.

Better yet, living the law by the precepts of an understanding, mindset and attitude of the intent (spirit vs letter) of the law is an affirmative approach to a peaceful society, that tends to step away from law and legalism that leads to:

Jehovah, Calvinism, Pharisaical zealousness, Police State, and the 'god over evil' concept of Zoroastrianism -- the subject of Isaiah's writing.
​

This all then gets back to the idea of God being one 'hear O' Israel the Lord your God is One God' cited in Deuteronomy 6:4 and in Mark 12:29

P.S.
It is for another, but related discussion, to say that Zoroaster was associated with Daniel during the time of captivity in Persia. It appears that some Zoroastrian concepts began to creep into Jewish customs if not teaching, and may be the subject of mention in scripture after the return from exile.

You are talking my language now. I fully understand what you are saying. I simply sum this matter up in one word: consequence. It is like God saying, 'If you do this, then this will happen'. And I fully agree with you when you said that it was not God's intent to bring 'calamity...etc', because saying so would be saying that He purposed destruction in His creation. And I feel that with such a thought, one is lead to think that he or she is free from responsibility, seeing that they are mere pots in the hands of the Potter having no choice but to fulfill a predestined outcome for their soul.

To sum up the spirit of the Law, and I am sure you agree, is to concur with Jesus' two commandments condensely applied to the whole Law: Love. And in not loving: one does not fulfill the intent of the Law and therefore, are those who are summed-up as lawless by the Lord.