God creates people just for the purpose of sending them to hell

[Zmouth]

Why even bother? He's here to tell, not discuss. A lot of people want to 'teach', but not learn.

How would you explain that this scripture doesn't indicate that the child was born without both biological parents?


15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luke 1:15-16

 

[breno785au]

How would you explain that this scripture doesn't indicate that the child was born without both biological parents?


15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luke 1:15-16

2 things,

1. I'm not sure what your asking, perhaps rephrase?
2. I'm not sure why your asking me this question.

 

[GuessWho]

This is what is called "double predestination", in which God chooses who he wants to save or send to hell. Indeed this is sort of a calvin teaching but i am pulling from what the bible say's about it. Proverbs 16:4 shows it

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Proverbs 16:4

here it shows God makes every for its purpose even the wicked which implys he creates people for hell. Romans 9:11-23 also shows it as well

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Romans 9:11-23

Notice "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction
This implys god creates people for the sole purpose of destroying them. It is not a calvin teaching but rather what the bible teaches

I challenged you on the other exact same thread you started about predestination (or double predestination) using Romans ch. 9.

Why didn't you respond the challenge? Are you not interested in what Paul has to say about God's plan of salvation?

So, I repeat the question and in case you don't answer I will take it as bad-will.

1. Who are the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy in the context of the letter to Romans?

 

[mar09]

This is what is called "double predestination", in which God chooses who he wants to save or send to hell. Indeed this is sort of a calvin teaching but i am pulling from what the bible say's about it. Proverbs 16:4 shows it

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Proverbs 16:4
/QUOTE]
I am not commenting.. i just happened to pass by a commentary from letgodbetrue. I cannot read as much as i want or have to sometimes, and dont know if others think the site to be trusted. But here's the link: Proverbs 16:4

 

[ChristIsGod]

"Adam's sin in the Garden of Eden did not surprise or confuse the LORD. He had planned the entrance of sin into the human family, though Adam freely chose Eve over God without any coercion at all. Adam alone is responsible for his sin and the consequences. God made him perfect, warned him, and gave him only one commandment to keep. God had planned the entrance of sin for the ultimate display of both his wrath and mercy."

I wouldn't say he "planned" sin - He foreknew that man's freewill would lead him into sin - and that's why we read that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

To say that he planned the entrance of sin for the ultimate display of both his wrath and mercy - makes Him sound like an egotistic sadistic GOD - which HE is Not.

The one tree and one command was purely so that man could display what he would do with freewill.

If we don't have freewill - then God would have created automatons/robots - protected from everything and obeying God because there was no other choice. He wants our love that leads to obedience to come from our own freewill.
There was no other way to create man, but to give him "choice".

 

[SeaBass]

This is what is called "double predestination", in which God chooses who he wants to save or send to hell. Indeed this is sort of a calvin teaching but i am pulling from what the bible say's about it. Proverbs 16:4 shows it

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Proverbs 16:4

here it shows God makes every for its purpose even the wicked which implys he creates people for hell. Romans 9:11-23 also shows it as well

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Romans 9:11-23

Notice "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction
This implys god creates people for the sole purpose of destroying them. It is not a calvin teaching but rather what the bible teaches

Eze 33:18 "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

If God created the wicked to be lost why would He want them to repent and live?


Prov 16:4 "The LORD hath made all things for himself (ma'aneh): yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

Ma'aneh means to give a response, give an answer. All things will give an answer to Himself. Everyone must give an account to God, even the wicked.

Prov 16:1 shows man can make his own plans.
Prov 16:2 man has freewill to choose his own way
Prov 16:3 man has free will to act and plan
Prov 16:4 man will give an answer for his plans, choices, actions, even the wicked
Prov 16:5 man can choose to be proud, but will not go unpunished

Psa 145:9 "The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works."
Gen 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

All God created was very good and God has tender mercies upon all He created. God did not create evil, wicked people to be lost.

Rom 9:22,23 "fitted" can be middle voice, the Jews fitted themselves to be vessels of wrath cf 1 Thess 2:15.16.

 

[Marian29]

This is what is called "double predestination", in which God chooses who he wants to save or send to hell. Indeed this is sort of a calvin teaching but i am pulling from what the bible say's about it. Proverbs 16:4 shows it

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Proverbs 16:4

here it shows God makes every for its purpose even the wicked which implys he creates people for hell. Romans 9:11-23 also shows it as well

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Romans 9:11-23

Notice "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction
This implys god creates people for the sole purpose of destroying them. It is not a calvin teaching but rather what the bible teaches

I totally disagree with you. You can't use some Holy Scriptures verses to justify your very own wrong thoughts.

Why would Jesus Christ, that, as the book of John says in first chapter: " In the beginning He was the Verb, and He was with God and He was God". Why would such a amaizing Divinity become flesh to live with humanity for 33 years, to "end" dying as only Him could have died: naked, with "endless" shame in front of His mom and brothers, to save, sinners. Which Divinity would do that, if He didn't love us like His sons?.

 

[AbbeyJoy]

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

 

[ChristIsGod]

What bothers me most is that this is what causes people to stumble most - especially those being attacked by the adversary and agnostics & atheists.

This is their question: "Why would a God that claims to be "LOVE INCARNATE" create man just to put things in front of his face to tempt them to do evil so HE can throw them into Hell when you say that He's the One that started this whole thing called "life""?

James 1:13-17 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Only True Love and Peace Plan for The World was spoken just before they crucified Him at their last supper ~

John 17:20-23

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the World may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

[posthuman]

maybe instead of thinking to judge God,

we ought to with all humility rejoice that we have heard His voice and His call

 

[posthuman]

i was a vessel fit for destruction and no good use at one time.

He broke me and is reforming me, a new wineskin for new wine.

how many of your stories are fundamentally different? was anyone from their birth fit for His holy use?

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(2 Corinthians 5:17)

if we didn't need to be reborn, Christ would be superfluous to us.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
(John 3:18)

 

[Bookends]

I don't know where you are getting this stuff from, but Try listening to Steve Gregg, verse by verse...

You might actually learn something.

 

[Marian29]

You should change the title of the Thread to:

[h=2]The Devil seeks people just for the purpose of sending them to hell[/h]
God is God, He doesn't need neither me nor you to accuse or defend Him.
He was so good to us, that besides die to save us, He also gave us a complete
manual to live well.

"the heavier the plow, the easier it is to plow"
"Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together." Deut. 22:10

2 Cor. 6:14-15
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

Soon, God will put in place all that is not in place