God did not establish the church!

[Bookends]

I know where you're coming from. I'm a Christian who hasn't attended "church" regularly in many years. I wear my belief and faith on my sleeve, so I am often asked, "Where do you go to church." I reply with something like, "I'm in church right now, sharing with you." I may follow up with, "I understand your question but I don't attend a 'church.' I have grown more in the Spirit since being away from the 'church,' but would never tell anyone not to go to church." (I only grew in him because I spent time reading his Word and talking and listening to him. And I certainly know that many people do grow while in church. I just didn't feel led by the Spirit to go, myself.) The conversation goes from there according to how the other person is responding.

Since I walk with the Lord each day references to him just naturally come out in my conversations. Once it's out there I stay in tune with how the other person is responding and if the holy Spirit is prompting me or not. If I do not feel the holy Spirit prompting me to continue speaking of him then I focus on whatever topic(s) are brought up. If I do feel him prompting then I continue with him in our conversation, knowing the Spirit is moving. When I first began doing this many years ago I have to say I was nervous and unsure of myself. But as I continued in it I saw how the holy Spirit was really the one speaking, not me, because I could see the positive effect on the person he was speaking to. Then I was able to relax and pretty much just put myself on cruise control and watch the Spirit work. I love watching him work!

So, even though I do not attend a church I do believe they serve a purpose in the holy Spirit's work. But, to me, most of what goes on in churches is not of the holy Spirit.

NT Scripture clearly depicts that 1st Century Christians gathered together and Paul warns clearly not forsake the gathering of believers. Perhaps you have grown in Christ, perhaps you are deceived in thinking so. If you have grown in the LORD, then what a shame it is that you don't have local body to share that with for exhortation and encouragement. The Church needs you, and you need the Church, period. The members of body of Christ are not meant to go it alone, but together. Paul explains this in many passages, I simply can't understand how you can ignore. Did you ever think you could be depriving some one who might benefit from what you have to say by rejecting the local gathering? IMHO, you are in direct disobedience to our Lord, thus I would have to question your growth. The fact that you refrain yourself from the local gathering actually speak to me of immaturity, incapable of dealing with diversity within the house of the LORD.

1 Corinthians 12
Unity and Diversity in One Body

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[SUP][c][/SUP] one Spirit. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For in fact the body is not one member but many.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? [SUP]17 [/SUP]If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? [SUP]18 [/SUP]But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, [SUP]25 [/SUP]that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

 

[notuptome]

I just got done saying that. Anyone who challenges the status quo with the clear word of God may expect accusations.

Then was Jesus bitter? Was Paul? We're all the writers of letters bitter? I'm simply sounding what they warned about.
R we not to correct with the word when the word tells us to do so? If not, according to your stand, then why even bother to read the word.Why listen to teachers if we already have it perfect, no need for change or correction, or rebuke? Just turn the football game on and be done with it!

Then there are those who simply have an axe to grind. God has sent men to be pastors of the church Ephesians 4:11. These men are a gift from God to His church.

It seems like if you cannot be in charge you are going to fight whomever is in charge. I do not like your attitude. It seems to me that you are divisive and engender strife. You are not Jesus or one of the apostles. You do not edify the body.

You must be careful and act with compassion not as vinegar to the teeth and smoke to the eyes.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Elin]

after constantine, the ekklesia were murdered right and left, and Jewish faithful to Yahweh believers also, by the 'church'.

The Jewish who deny Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah are not faithful to Yahweh.

 

[Elin]

In 1604 King James commissioned a group of Hebrew and Greek scholars, under the lead of one, Richard Bancroft, to create an English version of the bible for the common folks. Bancroft, in cahoots with James, came up with 45 rules of translation.

The word church, which denotes the building with its clerical/laity construct already in place, was to be used in place of the word ekklesia which is congregation or assembly.

It matters not the English word used for ekklesia.
It could have been translated flabberstat.

Its meaning, no matter what the word, is the meaning of the Greek word; i.e., "called-out assembly."

It's not complicated.

"Much ado about nothing."

 

[Kerry]

Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Who built it?

 

[elf3]

Seeing how both yet and Flamingspirit despise the church as a "corporation" neither of their response shock me. The church isn't a "corporation" but an "organization". It's a group of people with like beliefs gathering together to worship God. Since it is actually easier to gather in a building than outside in the weather it actually makes sense to have a building. And you do realize the disciples were the pastors then as we have pastors now. And back then someone usually took care of them when they were in a town. Now we give the pastor a salary which is perfectly fine as they will be held to a higher standard before God because of what they teach.

And yes God did establish the church because the church is all of those who believe in Christ.

You don't have to attend church but I seriously doubt God enjoys seeing either yet or flame try and tear down His church. Especially since both say they are Christian.

I'm a Christian but I'll tear down something God established....that makes as much sense as trying to swim to the moon.

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

i didn't see what they said, but remember the world's biggest church is anti-christ in its practice and more. 'heresy' this site calls it , in line with Scripture.

 

[Yet]

NT Scripture clearly depicts that 1st Century Christians gathered together and Paul warns clearly not forsake the gathering of believers. Perhaps you have grown in Christ, perhaps you are deceived in thinking so. If you have grown in the LORD, then what a shame it is that you don't have local body to share that with for exhortation and encouragement. The Church needs you, and you need the Church, period. The members of body of Christ are not meant to go it alone, but together. Paul explains this in many passages, I simply can't understand how you can ignore. Did you ever think you could be depriving some one who might benefit from what you have to say by rejecting the local gathering? IMHO, you are in direct disobedience to our Lord, thus I would have to question your growth. The fact that you refrain yourself from the local gathering actually speak to me of immaturity, incapable of dealing with diversity within the house of the LORD.

1 Corinthians 12
Unity and Diversity in One Body

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[SUP][c][/SUP] one Spirit. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For in fact the body is not one member but many.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? [SUP]17 [/SUP]If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? [SUP]18 [/SUP]But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, [SUP]25 [/SUP]that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Thats the whole point. You describe how the body is to function. That is not allowed in today's buildings. That means they are not of God if they fail to do as He ordered. Are you getting this yet.,I'm a simple man with a simple message.

 

[secularhermit]

I have the hunch many things will be changed when angels -and too many nations- will gather before God to worship and to hear Him assembled.

 

[Yet]

Then there are those who simply have an axe to grind. God has sent men to be pastors of the church Ephesians 4:11. These men are a gift from God to His church.

It seems like if you cannot be in charge you are going to fight whomever is in charge. I do not like your attitude. It seems to me that you are divisive and engender strife. You are not Jesus or one of the apostles. You do not edify the body.

You must be careful and act with compassion not as vinegar to the teeth and smoke to the eyes.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Where in Ephesians does it say an elder shepherd is to quit his day job and draw a salary for lifting himself above the folks as special and then call all the shots? Didn't think so. It's not there. Your Jesus said in you bible in Matt. 20 that there is to be no clerical/ laity system in His body. Now you say I'm the one who wants that position and can't get it. You tell me. Why in the world would I want to exalt myself for pay when your Jesus condemns the very idea? Answer that?
Its out of His compassion I'm a reformer. To help, with many others, to bring the body back to the truth of the NT paradigm of an assembly. What we have today is doing nobody any good, for it cannot.

 

[notuptome]

Where in Ephesians does it say an elder shepherd is to quit his day job and draw a salary for lifting himself above the folks as special and then call all the shots? Didn't think so. It's not there. Your Jesus said in you bible in Matt. 20 that there is to be no clerical/ laity system in His body. Now you say I'm the one who wants that position and can't get it. You tell me. Why in the world would I want to exalt myself for pay when your Jesus condemns the very idea? Answer that?
Its out of His compassion I'm a reformer. To help, with many others, to bring the body back to the truth of the NT paradigm of an assembly. What we have today is doing nobody any good, for it cannot.

In Acts we see the apostles delegating many tasks to the men who were of good character that they the apostles could dedicate themselves to prayer and ministering the word of God. Acts 6

Now let me think who is it that goes around calling good evil and evil good? Your heart attitude on this matter causes me great concern.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Yet]

Your judging my heart causes me great concern. You r now judging Jesus' heart and Pauls and the other writers and their hearts. That should cause you great concern. I'm simply pointing to scripture and you won't answer it...like the Pharisees, they couldn't muster a scriptural answer to refute the truth. Instead they accused Christ of having a devil and Paul for being mad.

Somethings never change do they. I can understand that you have been mesmerized by churchianity...so was I. That is not your fault my friend but when you refuse to check the word as the Bereans to see if these things be so.....that IS your fault.

 

[Elin]

Where in Ephesians does it say an elder shepherd is to quit his day job and draw a salary for lifting himself above the folks as special and then call all the shots? Didn't think so. It's not there.

What was Jesus' day job during his ministry?

Scripture teaches that God's workers have a right to have food and other physical needs supplied at the church's expense (1Co 9:4-14).

"The Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel,"
(1Co 9:14) not their day job.

Your Jesus said in you bible in Matt. 20 that
there is to be no clerical/ laity system in His body. Now you say I'm the one who wants that position and can't get it. You tell me. Why in the world would I want to exalt myself for pay when your Jesus condemns the very idea? Answer that?

"Your" Jesus?

So he is not your Jesus also?
That explains a lot.

And "your Jesus" said no such thing.


He told his apostles that they were not to be like Gentile rulers, lording their authority over others,
but were to serve the church.

The apostles appointed elders to be in charge in all the churches.
To be in charge does not mean you lord authority over others rather than serve them.

Its out of His compassion I'm a reformer. To help, with many others, to bring the body back to the truth of the NT paradigm of an assembly.

And those assemblies all had elders in charge of governing them.

 

[Kerry]

Where in Ephesians does it say an elder shepherd is to quit his day job and draw a salary for lifting himself above the folks as special and then call all the shots? Didn't think so. It's not there. Your Jesus said in you bible in Matt. 20 that there is to be no clerical/ laity system in His body. Now you say I'm the one who wants that position and can't get it. You tell me. Why in the world would I want to exalt myself for pay when your Jesus condemns the very idea? Answer that?
Its out of His compassion I'm a reformer. To help, with many others, to bring the body back to the truth of the NT paradigm of an assembly. What we have today is doing nobody any good, for it cannot.

How then can the gospel be preached and how shall they here without a preacher. I think you are hung up on money and cannot trust God with your money. You know whats best for your money and God don't. Keep reading and praying and maybe you will break through.

God caused the Earth not bring forth it's fullness because they would not give the tithes and He put holes in their pockets and interest rates went through he roof and the worms ate their crops and the raimns would not come and there cows got sick and died. The He said test Me and bring the tithe into the store house and see that I will not pour a blessing that will not have room to receive. It is the only thing that God said TEST ME.

The only way the Gospel can be preached is by people giving money. In fact the only reason God has held judgment back on America is because of our giving to the preaching of the gospel. If we go with your doctrine we are doomed.

We can say we have faith, but when we take groceries from our childrens mouth and place it in God's hand, that is faith.

 

[Kerry]

Yet
Do you have a bible? How much did it cost? Did someone give you a bible? How much did they pay for it? Do you go to church? How much did that cost and who paid for it? How much does the lights cost and the comfy heating and air? Don't forget those padded pews, they were not free.

If you are in need and call your Pastor would rather were him say, well I get off work in 5 hours or I will be there in five minutes.

 

[Yet]

What was Jesus' day job during his ministry?

Scripture teaches that God's workers have a right to have food and other physical needs supplied at the church's expense (1Co 9:4-14).

"The Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel,"
(1Co 9:14) not their day job.


"Your" Jesus?

So he is not your Jesus also?
That explains a lot.

And "your Jesus" said no such thing.


He told his apostles that they were not to be like Gentile rulers, lording their authority over others,
but were to serve the church.

The apostles appointed elders to be in charge in all the churches.
To be in charge does not mean you lord authority over others rather than serve them.


And those assemblies all had elders in charge of governing them.

It makes all the difference in the world how we do church. Read Pauls description of a gathering then compare it to what your church does. No resemblance whatsoever. This keeps the body members from their functions. That's not a good thing.

Jesus was an itenerent preacher. He deserved support as Paul later did also. There is no scriptural, warrant in your bible for any one man or woman in a local established body to quit working and feed off the folks. Check Acts 20. Paul commanded the elder leaders to work secular jobs in order to support those who could not support themselves.

If they were getting pay checks from the sheep, why would Paul command them to work secular jobs in order to give money to the poor?
Jesus said 'I come to serve, not to be served.' That's been turned on its head. We now feed, support, serve and idolize the pastor.
These verses alone negates the false assumption that 'the elder who teaches well is worthy of double honor' as meaning a salary. It does not. The Greek word for honor means just that, honor. Times is that word. The Greek for wages is opsonion. Also compensation, money. Opsonion was not used here. Why not? Why do you suppose? And which teacher gets the mammon? The best teacher? Would this not cause infighting among all those that teach? The body of Christ needs to grow some logic!

Another point few care to consider is that all members of the local established meeting are to function in their spiritual gifts, everything done decently and in order. Teaching, exhorting, prophesying,etc., etc.. So who gets the pay check? Everybody?

Search the word until hell gets frost bite and you'll still not be able to find one lonely little verse that supports the one man show paradigm. Seek far and wide for the single exalted, executive, señor pastor with the new cad and he will not be found. Funny there is plenty of scripture to support the every member participation meeting and not one verse to back Pastor/Reverend Bob's elevated paid position and yet the church operates in the latter without any embarrassment.
And guess where Jesus hangs out? Outside the closed shop door knocking and no one answers the door.

If God died tomorrow, church services would continue Sunday morning unabated, business as usual, uninterrupted, with nary a flinch.
Oh and sorry you missed the point when I said 'your Jesus'. Trying to make you see that the Jesus you think you know has much against what christians gushingly call church.

But to another point, Paul warned about another jesus, another gospel, another spirit. He said we are to stick with the gospel once deliverd unto the saints. Stray not away. Mingle not the truth with pagan ideas such as the clerical exalted position which displaces Christ and elevates man to specialness.
You say 'but we are all special'. Yea but that guy or gal that holds the unscriptural title in front of their awesome name ( see Matt. 23), is more special than the special and you know it. If that special person ever left town your church would go into free fall. That's why Jesus said He was the Head of His body, not some self appointed leader.( 3 John...Diotrephes).

And about the elders. You are right. They are to govern, but not like you think. Some are to teach the word. All are to watch out for errors and wolves. All are to lead by example. All are to try and persuade the younger to follow Christ...not themselves. They are not to control or be tyrants and despots. They are to bring the body to maturity then get out of the way and let them minister with their God given functions in the open meeting.
The word is very clear on this yet not one church (ekklesia) that I know of follows this biblical pattern that is outlined in YOUR bible.......and yes....my bible to. Making my point again. It's hard making points when few get it.

 

[Elin]

What was Jesus' day job during his ministry?

Scripture teaches that God's workers have a right to have food and other physical needs supplied at the church's expense (1Co 9:4-14).

"The Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel,"
(1Co 9:14) not their "day job."

He told his apostles that they were not to be like Gentile rulers, lording their authority over others,
but were to serve the church.

The apostles appointed elders to be in charge in all the churches.
To be in charge does not mean you lord authority over others rather than serve them.

It makes all the difference in the world how we do church. Read Pauls description of a gathering then compare it to what your church does. No resemblance whatsoever. This keeps the body members from their functions. That's not a good thing.

Jesus was an itenerent preacher. He deserved support as Paul later did also.
There is no scriptural, warrant in your bible for any one man or woman in a local established body to quit working and
(to) feed off the folks.

Jesus says there is.

Check Acts 20. Paul commanded the elder leaders to work secular jobs in order to support those who could not support themselves.

If they were getting pay checks from the sheep, why would Paul command them to work secular jobs in order to give money to the poor?

Read 1Co 9:4-14.

It answers your questions.

 

[Elin]

The word church, which denotes the building with its clerical/laity construct already in place, was to be used in place of the word ekklesia which is congregation or assembly. There are 3 instances in Acts 20 where ekklesia was left as assembly.

The Greek word "sunagoge" also means both a building (Lk 4:16; Ac 17:2) and an assembly (Rev 2:9, 3:9).

Why is there a problem with the Greek word "ekklesia" meaning both a building and an assembly?

Seems consistent to me.

 

[Stephen63]

Yet I get what you're trying to say. But I don't agree that every building designated for worship is wrong. After all, 45 people wont fit in a house. Many cities prohibit having regular church services in homes.
I totally agree that a church building shouldn't be built like a temple. It should be efficient for its purpose of having worship, not being worshiped. The building itself is nothing..... it will be burned in the end.

However, that said, we should not put every established congregation in the same bag & stereotype it all as heretical..... we don't know what every congregation thinks of their building. That's just plain wrong, brother.

"not forsaking the assembling of ourselves" is true doctrine. Good ministers need to be heard whenever possible, & we will find most of them in the church building..... so go to church.

 

[Yet]

Yet I get what you're trying to say. But I don't agree that every building designated for worship is wrong. After all, 45 people wont fit in a house. Many cities prohibit having regular church services in homes.
I totally agree that a church building shouldn't be built like a temple. It should be efficient for its purpose of having worship, not being worshiped. The building itself is nothing..... it will be burned in the end.

However, that said, we should not put every established congregation in the same bag & stereotype it all as heretical..... we don't know what every congregation thinks of their building. That's just plain wrong, brother.

"not forsaking the assembling of ourselves" is true doctrine. Good ministers need to be heard whenever possible, & we will find most of them in the church building..... so go to church.

Heres the deal. It was spiritually practical for the first century to meet in small groups in homes or where ever. If you get much more than 20 people in a meeting, many folks with gifts and functions will be cancelled out, as we well know in the modern big churches. Read 1Cor. 12 and 14. The every member functionality would be canceled out and is canceled out in a congregation of 50 or 500. You are using what I call 'church speak'. We've all been led to believe that there is only one or two ministers per congregation. That's not bible as you will see when you read what I submited. Most of the folks are being cheated out of their God given functions in the place of meeting. And that is just plain wrong my brother.smile.