God has future animal sacrifices planned

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M

morninglory

Guest
UMMM But isn't that an oxy-moron on one hand to say there will b no death or anything that will hurt or harm during that time,but yet doing animal sacrifices which by definition causes harm and death? So how is that even possible to do something that by it's very nature causes harm and death to be done during a time which there is no harm or death?
Sarah, First take note that I am not taking a position on this, just some questions based on scripture to be considered; Heb.9.28 says, Jesus "will appear the SECOND time to those who LOOK for him without sin UNTO salvation", and Heb.12.14 says "follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which NO MAN shall SEE the Lord"; Those two scriptures together with 1 John.3.2 "--when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is", and Luke 3.6 "all flesh shall see the SALVATION of the Lord", what happens to those who are NOT looking for the Lord at the second coming?

Many Believers think that the Rev.1.4 "every eye shall see him" is the second coming, but the two scriptures in Hebrews deny that, so what happens to those who were deceived or did not know that they were worshiping a false god? Luke 12.48 says "he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few stripes", and Rev.2.24 says, those "which have not known the depths of Satan as they speak, I will put upon them none other burden"; what will they eat, seeing they do not receive the liknes of Jesus at the second coming?
 
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zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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so what happens to those who were deceived or did not know that they were worshiping a false god? Luke 12.48 says "he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few stripes", and Rev.2.24 says, those "which have not known the depths of Satan as they speak, I will put upon them none other burden"; what will they eat, seeing they do not receive the liknes of Jesus at the second coming?
nothing.

they will be separated at the sheep and goat judgement.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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I heard or read somewhere that the dimensions given of the new temple in Ezek 40-48 are 1/7th larger than the previous temple dimensions. Anyone know more of this?
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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I heard or read somewhere that the dimensions given of the new temple in Ezek 40-48 are 1/7th larger than the previous temple dimensions. Anyone know more of this?
Ezekiel's Temple is larger than the city of Jerusalem was at the time.
 
Oct 22, 2013
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well dear, considering you no longer have a temple nor a priesthood, i wonder how your sins are atoned for?

not by swinging chickens or hoping for the best.

did God change His mind? prayer and good works are acceptable now?

i don't think so...unless you are in Christ - Jesus is His Name.

do you know Him?


[video=youtube;yzqTFNfeDnE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqTFNfeDnE[/video]

Thats a very easy question to answer. Apparently prayer is acceptable combined with a truly repentant heart. So much so in fact that God Himself even gave me the words I should say to him. O Israel, return to Yehovah your God; for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to Yehovah; say to him: Forgive all iniquity, and receive us graciously; so will we offer the words of our lips instead of bulls.

And no, Yehovah doesn't change his mind He keeps his covenant and will have mercy on his people.
 
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zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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Thats a very easy question to answer. Apparently prayer is acceptable combined with a truly repentant heart. So much so in fact that God Himself even gave me the words I should say to him. O Israel, return to Yehovah your God; for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to Yehovah; say to him: Forgive all iniquity, and receive us graciously; so will we offer the words of our lips instead of bulls.

And no, Yehovah doesn't change his mind He keeps his covenant and will have mercy on his people.
but why haven't you proceeded to accept His Gracious offer of the new Covenant He promised?
since the Old one was broken by the people, and has since vanished away - which is why there is no levitical priesthood; temple or sacrifices?

Jeremiah 31
A New Covenant
31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

Hebrews 8
1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2a minister in the holy places, in the true tenta that the Lord set up, not man. 3For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” 6But as it is, Christb has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8For he finds fault with them when he says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

13In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

God restored the Tabernacle of DAVID that had fallen....2000 years ago.
the early Israelites knew it...they entered and received that New Covenant He promised, the everlasting covenant.

Jeremiah 23
David's Righteous Branch
5"Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land. 6"In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.'

Who do you say was that Righteous Branch?

Isaiah 9:7
Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Isaiah 11:1
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

Acts 13:23
"From this man's [DAVID] descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Thats a very easy question to answer. Apparently prayer is acceptable combined with a truly repentant heart. So much so in fact that God Himself even gave me the words I should say to him. O Israel, return to Yehovah your God; for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to Yehovah; say to him: Forgive all iniquity, and receive us graciously; so will we offer the words of our lips instead of bulls.


Selihah, you should study and post the entire chapter & psalms.
all the Law and all the prophets looked forward to a Redeemer.

if you deny that, i reckon you do not know the scriptures.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mark 12:33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Ephesians 5:2 and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee
Hebrews 7:27 who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Hebrews 9:9 which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hebrews 9:26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

No more Sacrifice after Christ, to be done to get closer to God it is finished
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:













 
Oct 22, 2013
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but why haven't you proceeded to accept His Gracious offer of the new Covenant He promised?
since the Old one was broken by the people, and has since vanished away - which is why there is no levitical priesthood; temple or sacrifices?

Jeremiah 31
A New Covenant
31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Where in this new covenant is it written that the Torah will be abolished or diminished from or that it has anything to do with the anointed king? Look at it again. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel; I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God and they shall be my people. This quotation shows that the Almighty had not intended to issue a new law, but to impress His ancient divine law on their hearts, that it never should be forgotten throughout all time. Forgive me if Im wrong but are but are you taking those seven words you highlighted out of context to support entirely different meaning to this?


Almighty God has said: You shall keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command you this day, that it may go well with you, and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days upon the land, which the Lord your God gives you, forever. Does Christianity have another definition of forever the rest of the world is unaware of?


Even Jesus agrees with Jeremiah and God by expressing himself in various places, that he did not come to abolish the law of Moses, but to uphold it. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill: for verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle, shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." Yet you persist in believing that the Mosaic dispensation is no longer in force and or vanishing away and or superseded by that of Jesus? Jesus, thought everlasting bliss depended on the obedience to the holy laws of God, for when asked by the rich man, what he was to do in order to earn in life everlasting, Jesus answered "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. The rich man said unto him, which commandment? Jesus answered, Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not bear false witness; honour thy father and thy mother; and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Yet you persist by contradicting Jeremiah, Jesus and God by adding, that the sole condition on which life eternal depends, is the belief in Jesus as the Savior of the soul? Why?

Aren't the words of God sufficient? Ask for forgiveness and He will forgive, no sacrifice human or otherwise are needed or required.


Hebrews 8
1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2a minister in the holy places, in the true tenta that the Lord set up, not man. 3For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” 6But as it is, Christb has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8For he finds fault with them when he says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

13In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

God restored the Tabernacle of DAVID that had fallen....2000 years ago.
the early Israelites knew it...they entered and received that New Covenant He promised, the everlasting covenant.
Well to be honest I don't get why so many quick to put their faith in this? I must admit it is a bold move on their part, especially since nobody has any idea who the author is and a vast number of your church fathers looked upon or thought of the book to the Hebrews as apochraphal. But when I read it I don't get because it seems the author appears to agree with the entirety of Jeremiah 31, then goes on to contradicts himself, Jeremiah, Jesus and God by writing Torah/Mosaic covenant will vanish away.

Jeremiah 23
David's Righteous Branch
5"Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land. 6"In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness.'

Who do you say was that Righteous Branch?
I say it will be the anointed king who will come and restore Israel. However, nobody has yet to ever fulfill the prophesied office of that prophesied anointed king to come. Those that claimed to be that king or those whom others have lifted up as that king have all died before ever having the chance to fulfill that office. Israel is still besieged on all sides and the remnant scattered abroad. Though I must admit there does seem to be a resurgence in people following Torah and his people are gathering.


I find it hard to believe Jesus is that anointed king namely because of his very own words he denied being that anointed king. Jesus said: Think not that I am come to make peace on earth; I came not to send peace but the sword, and to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. On the other hand, I find Scripture says of the true and expected Messiah, in Zechariah 9:10, ''And he shall speak peace unto the heathen," etc. Jesus says he came in order "to send the sword on earth,"


The list goes on as to why king messiah was not Jesus. Because...


At the time of the king Messiah there is to be only one kingdom and one king, namely, the true king Messiah. But the other empires and their rulers shall cease at that period, as we read in Daniel 2:44, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever." Whereas, we now actually see that many empires, different in their laws and habits, are still in existence; and that in each empire a different king is ruling; consequently the Messiah is not yet come.


At the time of the king Messiah, there is to be in the world but one creed and one religion, and that is the religion of Israel, as is proved by Isaiah (52:1), "Awake, awake, put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean." And further (chapter 66:17), "Who sanctify themselves and purify themselves in the gardens, behind one in the midst of them who eat the flesh of the swine, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together saith the Lord." "And (verse 23) it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come and worship before me, saith the Lord." Moreover, it is written in Zechariah (14:16), "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles." In the same book (chapter 8:23) we read, "Thus saith the Lord of hosts, In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men of nations of diverse languages shall take hold, even shall take hold of the skirt of a Jew saying, We will go with you; for we have heard that God is with you."


At the time of the Messiah, the idolatrous images and their memorial, as also the false prophets and the spirit of profanity are to vanish from the earth, as may be seen in Zechariah 13:2, "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols from the earth, and they shall no more be remembered, also I will cause the prophets and the spirit of uncleanliness to pass away from the earth." So also it is written in Isaiah 2:18, "And the idols he shall utterly abolish." So it is also said in Zephaniah 2:11, "The Lord will be terrible unto them, for he will cause all the gods of the earth to waste away, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the heathen."


At the time of the Messiah, there will be no sins and iniquities in the world, particularly not among the Israelitish nation. Thus we find in the law (Deuteronomy 30:6), "And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart and the heart of thy seed to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Again, in Zephaniah 3:13, "The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth." Again, in Jeremiah 3:17, "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord, and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem, neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart." Again, in Ezekiel 36:25, "And I will sprinkle clean water upon you: from all your impurity, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. And I will give unto you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments and do them." Moreover, see Ezekiel 37:23, "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with the idols nor with their abominations, nor with their transgressions, and I will save them out of all their dwelling-places wherein they have sinned, and I will cleanse them, and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, and David my servant shall be king over them, and they shall have one shepherd, and they shall walk in my judgments and observe my statutes and do them."


At the time of the king Messiah and after the war with Gog and Magog there will be peace and tranquility throughout the world, and men will no longer require any weapons of war. So it is written in Isaiah 2:4, "And they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."


At the time of the anointed king there will be no troubles, cares, and anxieties, among the restored Israelites, who will then be blessed with a prolonged and more happy life, as is foretold in the following passages of Isaiah (65:16). "He who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth, and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth, because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. (Verse 19) "And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people, and the voice of weeping shall no more be heard in her, nor the voice of crying." (Verse 20) "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days, for the child shall die a hundred years old, but the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed." (Verse 21) "And they shall build houses and inhabit them, and they shall plant vineyards and eat the fruit of them." (Verse 22) "They shall not build and another inhabit, they shall not plant and another eat, for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."


At the time of the Messiah the Shechinah shall return to Israel as in former days, and the people of Israel increase in prophecy, wisdom, and knowledge, as may be seen by the following quotations from the prophets. (Ezekiel 37:26) "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will establish and multiply them, and set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore." (Verse 27) "My residence also shall be among them. Yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."


The list goes on and on concerning what king messiah will do and what it will be like when he is here. None of which have been fulfilled. Therefore it is my belief king messiah has not come.


Isaiah 9:7
Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
yep king messiah not fulfilled. Primarily because Jesus never once sat on the throne of David.

Isaiah 11:1
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
i feel like a broken record

Acts 13:23
"From this man's [DAVID] descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.

Well, whoever wrote acts apparently wasn't aware of the instruction given by God how the children were to be counted. They are to be accounted for according to their fathers house. You say God is Jesus father well according to God's own instruction that in itself proves he is not of the line of David, therefore further proof he cannot be the anointed king.

And Yehovah spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the Tent of Meeting, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they came out from the land of Egypt, saying, Take a census of all the congregation of the people of Israel, by families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of names, every male by their polls;
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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hi Selihah:)
i read your entire reply, several times.
there are some very good questions.
i have limited time today, but if the Lord is willing, i will return to this thread again to go over your post in detail, and hopefully we can discuss it all.

fortunately, it's my thread, so no derailment worries:)

i'd like to look at this part for a moment, and maybe you can think about it - and search the scriptures.

I find it hard to believe Jesus is that anointed king namely because of his very own words he denied being that anointed king. Jesus said: Think not that I am come to make peace on earth; I came not to send peace but the sword, and to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Jesus was speaking to, and about Israel, there.
and that is exactly what happened, as you know.

and the division among the people who call themselves Israel today (concerning Jesus) is well known.
:)


Luke 2
The Prophecy of Simeon
33And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him. 34And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed-- 35and a sword will pierce even your own soul-- to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."

On the other hand, I find Scripture says of the true and expected Messiah, in Zechariah 9:10, ''And he shall speak peace unto the heathen,"
and that is exactly what happened, according to the Gospel Promise God gave to Abraham.
we know the hebrew scriptures foretell that God is not the God of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

remember this?:

Genesis 12:3
The Calling of Abram
2And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; 3And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

you may want to make certain Shaul was correct here:

Galatians 3
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

...

this already happened:

Amos 9
The Restoration of Israel
11"In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old; 12That they may possess the remnant of Edom And all the nations who are called by My name," Declares the LORD who does this.

the Jews - the remnant of Israel - who entered that New Covenant said:

Acts 15
The Jerusalem Council

1But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.a 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18known from of old.


19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers
22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, 23with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothersc who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. 24Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled youd with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

.....


Father God's Plan was always to take a people for Himself from every kindred tongue and nation.
this He is doing now.

there's only One Covenant.

this happened when the exiles returned from Babylon; rebuilt the city and the wall...and the temple, and Jesus Christ the King of Israel came:

Jeremiah 30
Restoration of Israel and Judah

2"Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book. 3'For behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' The LORD says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.'"

the apostates and rebels rejected the Messiah, and perished in the siege of 70AD.
just as God warned would happen.

but, take heart! Jesus saves today.

ttyl......t.b.c.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Where in this new covenant is it written that the Torah will be abolished or diminished from or that it has anything to do with the anointed king?
you mean you don't believe God said He would make a NEW covenant with those willing in Israel?
NOT LIKE the other covenant?

"the Torah will be abolished"

:) that's silly. the Torah isn't abolished.
we read it every day.

"or diminished from"

it's not diminished. it is God's Word.

it's just that God has revealed Himself to us, in Jesus Christ, of whom all the Law and the Prophets spoke.

check what Jesus said with the Torah:

Luke 24
On the Road to Emmaus

13That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven milesa from Jerusalem, 14and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 15While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 16But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17And he said to them, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad. 18Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” 19And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 21But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.” 25And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

28So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He acted as if he were going farther, 29but they urged him strongly, saying, “Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent.” So he went in to stay with them. 30When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them. 31And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight. 32They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the Scriptures?” 33And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem. And they found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, 34saying, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” 35Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread.


"or that it has anything to do with the anointed king"

are you expecting an anointed King & Messiah?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Well, whoever wrote acts apparently wasn't aware of the instruction given by God how the children were to be counted. They are to be accounted for according to their fathers house. You say God is Jesus father well according to God's own instruction that in itself proves he is not of the line of David, therefore further proof he cannot be the anointed king.

And Yehovah spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the Tent of Meeting, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they came out from the land of Egypt, saying, Take a census of all the congregation of the people of Israel, by families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of names, every male by their polls;
and so do you have documented proof of an unbroken lineage from David?
i would like to see it.

Jesus came through David through David's son Nathan. not Solomon.
you know that Solomon's line was cut off.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Selihah, this is Jesus' line, through his mother.

(as you know, his LEGALLY adoptive father, Joseph's name is used).

they are BOTH qualified under God's Law, as you know.

Luke 3
The Genealogy of Jesus Christ

23Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli [MARY'S FATHER], 24the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,e the son of Neri, 28the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.


and, you can easily check this:


Matthew 1
The Genealogy of Jesus Christ

1The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, 3and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram,a 4and Ram the father of Amminadab, and Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon, 5and Salmon the father of Boaz by Rahab, and Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse, 6and Jesse the father of David the king.

And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uriah, 7and Solomon the father of Rehoboam, and Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asaph,b 8and Asaph the father of Jehoshaphat, and Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah, 9and Uzziah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah, 10and Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, and Manasseh the father of Amos,c and Amos the father of Josiah, 11and Josiah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.

12And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoniah was the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, 13and Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, and Abiud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor, 14and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud, 15and Eliud the father of Eleazar, and Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob, 16and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

17So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations.

:)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Where in this new covenant is it written that the Torah will be abolished or diminished from or that it has anything to do with the anointed king? Look at it again. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel; I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God and they shall be my people. This quotation shows that the Almighty had not intended to issue a new law, but to impress His ancient divine law on their hearts, that it never should be forgotten throughout all time. Forgive me if Im wrong but are but are you taking those seven words you highlighted out of context to support entirely different meaning to this?
Deuteronomy 5:2
The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.

Deuteronomy 5:3
It was not with our ancestors that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

who were they?
and what was that covenant?

was it this one?:
has this happened yet, as far as you know?
or are you expecting it to be in the future?

Jeremiah 31
A New Covenant

31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

because i would like to know when God made this new covenant with you (if you are indeed of ancient Israel).

after the temple was destroyed?
when? how? what did He say about that?

can you show me?
or are you waiting?
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
to Selihah, The book of Hebrerws exults Jesus and His New Covenant over every part of the Old Cov. Some of the O.C. is done away with, some parts are verified, and some fulfilled, and some set aside. Nothing is "destroyed" in the strictest sense of the word, Yet all of it is "deminished" in glory, as Jesus takes the stage, and when Jesus comes back for the closing act, God will find all the "supporting actors" He needs to Glorify His eternal and earthly son, the son also of David thru mary, a daughter of Nathan. Joseph's line was dequalified but Mary's line was pure. "To God be the Glory"
 
Oct 22, 2013
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to Selihah, The book of Hebrerws exults Jesus and His New Covenant over every part of the Old Cov. Some of the O.C. is done away with, some parts are verified, and some fulfilled, and some set aside. Nothing is "destroyed" in the strictest sense of the word, Yet all of it is "deminished" in glory, as Jesus takes the stage, and when Jesus comes back for the closing act, God will find all the "supporting actors" He needs to Glorify His eternal and earthly son, the son also of David thru mary, a daughter of Nathan. Joseph's line was dequalified but Mary's line was pure. "To God be the Glory"
He needs to glorify his son? Tell me what to make of this when God said: I am Yehovah; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to carved idols.


Zone I will reply to your latest shortly, thanks for your patience.

Peace
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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He needs to glorify his son? Tell me what to make of this when God said: I am Yehovah; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to carved idols.


Zone I will reply to your latest shortly, thanks for your patience.

Peace
okay Selihah:)

i must rest for a time. but i'll be back.
this is exciting:). because we have the Hebrew Scriptures...and we Christians (jews and gentiles) can see Jesus there.
you may not ultimately agree, but i am pleased and honored to have this discussion with you.
if it's acceptable, i'd like to sometimes refer to rabbinical sources which claim to refute the idea that Jesus was the jewish Messiah.

i've actually found them helpful in proving that He was...naturally, because the interpreters from Judaism have:

1) not understood; or in some cases have been downright dishonest in their interpretations...this happens in christian interpretations too.

2) don't want to have to acknowledge Jesus at this point....this is unfortunate (and to be expected), but by no means has to stop any jewish person from deciding for themselves.

something i posted earlier that will be helpful to discuss:

Paul (an Hebrew, Benjamite; Pharisee, and knew the Law well....under Gamaliel), said this:

1 Corinthians 15
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

so we ought to be able to find that.

ex.s:

Genesis 3:15
Genesis 3:15 Multilingual: I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.' < click

Genesis 22:14
Genesis 22:14 Multilingual: So Abraham called the name of that place, 'The LORD will provide'; as it is said to this day, 'On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided.' < click

Psalm 22
Psalm 22:1 Multilingual: To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning? < click
etc

Isaiah 53
Isaiah 53 ESV < click
Isaiah 53:5 Multilingual: But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. < click
etc

Daniel 9:24
Daniel 9:24 Multilingual: Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to ano < click

Daniel 9:26
Daniel 9:26 Multilingual: And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end th click
etc

Zechariah 12:10
Zechariah 12:11 Multilingual: On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. < click

Zechariah 13:7
Zechariah 13:7 Multilingual: Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who stands next to me,' declares the LORD of hosts. 'Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; I will turn my hand against the little ones. < click
etc

Isaiah 53:12
Isaiah 53:12 Multilingual: Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes int < click
etc.

"Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

question: can any human (priest; high priest; rabbi or pastor) bear the sin of many?:)



and there's good stuff like this (to look at sometime):)...lots of it.

Hengstenberg's Christology of the Old Testament.
VOL. I.

Christology of the Old Testament, and a Commentary on the Messianic Predictions. Vol. I. < click

k....tty soon i hope
love zone
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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He needs to glorify his son? Tell me what to make of this when God said: I am Yehovah; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to carved idols.

Yes, God glorifies himself by glorifying his one and only Son.
 
Oct 22, 2013
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Deuteronomy 5:2
The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.

Deuteronomy 5:3
It was not with our ancestors that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

who were they?
and what was that covenant?

was it this one?:
has this happened yet, as far as you know?
or are you expecting it to be in the future?
It is my understanding that God made the covenant with the line of Abraham and the mixed multitude of others who came out of Egypt. This mixed multitude I believe are those who desire to sojourn with Israel and God has said He sees no difference between them and the native born. Assuming you are not of the stock of Abraham (native born) they could have been your ancestors zone, who knows? The covenant was the one spoken of in Chapter 4 of Deuteronomy which in a nut shell is Gods instruction given to His people. It is His Torah a.k.a. instruction, wisdom, teaching, laws on how to live in the land they were to be given, a constitution if you will. The covenant is basically obey and live a long and prosperous life. Disobey God's torah and they were warned they would be booted and scattered throughout the earth.

Jeremiah 31
A New Covenant

31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

because i would like to know when God made this new covenant with you (if you are indeed of ancient Israel).

after the temple was destroyed?
when? how? what did He say about that?

can you show me?
or are you waiting?[/QUOTE]

Jeremiah 31 does mention that Israel broke the covenant God made with their fathers when they stopped listening to and obeying God's Torah. And as we can read elsewhere true to His word God scattered them abroad. But as I wrote earlier Jeremiah tells us exactly what the new covenant will be in the coming dayys. That God had not issued a new never heard before law, but He is going to impress His ancient divine law on our hearts, that it never should be forgotten throughout all time.

Am I waiting? Waiting for what? Animal sacrifice to start again? No, it is my understanding that according to the book of Leviticus sacrifice was never a requirement, it was a free will offering and only offered for unintentional sin. God has said there is no sacrifice that could ever cover willful intentional sin. Also not one prophet ever mentioned the need for blood for forgiveness before Israel could return and follow God's ways. I mentioned previously God gave me the words to say that takes the place of bulls. I ask Him to forgive me and learn to walk in His ways and He will forgive me.

Am I waiting for God to impress His Torah upon my heart? Not anymore. Are we in those coming days? Inquiring minds want to know ;)

Ever read Matthew 5? I'm sure you have. Now there are some wonderful words of wisdom spoken by Yeshua. But it wasn't anything new, God spoke His Torah long before Jesus was born. Jesus was IMO simply teaching the ways of OUR Father, because you can find pretty much the same thing already written in Leviticus 19.

I was once a christian believing as you. Because thats how I was raised from birth, never questioning just assuming what I was told was true and told thats what I'm supposed to be, living in fear because otherwise I would burn in hell with the jews <lol>. Now having read things for myself using prayer, my own brain, critical thinking skills and help from others with my understanding of the Hebrew text. I have come to the conclusion Yehovah is my savior and redeemer.

sorry got off track.
 
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