God ordains sin???
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The bible clearly affirms both God's foreknowledge of future events, AND man's free will. Thus the bible affirms God's foreknowledge of future free acts of humans.
Many modern philosophers have argued that this belief is incoherent, and that foreknowledge of future events and the freedom of man to decide those future events are mutually exclusive.
Since the biblical teaching is clear that God does have foreknowledge AND humans have free will, then obviously the philosophers who hold this position are wrong.
Let us suffice to say that:
1. Calvinists are very deficient in proving that God is any less sovereign in giving man free will to choose salvation, (since it is His choice to allow for that free will)
2. Those in favor of free will cannot prove logically that it is impossible for an infinite God to know the results of man's free decisions in advance.
Some of the more evolved Calvinists might argue that the above conclusion is exactly their point. But the Calvinists confuse foreknowledge with foreordination. Instead of accepting the Scripture's clear indications of foreknowledge, they have instead imposed foreordination into these scriptures, creating a fatalism that does not exist.
D.A. Carson, in his book Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility: Biblical Perspectives in Tension, New Foundations Theological Library (Atlanta: John Knox, 1981), pp. 24-35, lists nine areas of genuine human freedom before God.
1. people face a multitude of divine exhortations and commands
2. people are said to obey, believe, and choose God
3. people sin and rebel against God
4. their sins are judged by God
5. people are tested by God
6. people receive divine rewards
7. the people are responsible to respond to God's initiative
8. prayers are not mere showpieces scripted by God
9. God literally pleads with sinners to repent and be saved
These suggest a large amount of human freedom before God.
And yet at the same time, we know that God knows all things, past, present, and future, but not that God foreordains all things in the future.
If God ordained sin, He would violate His own nature and cease to be God.
superdave!
buddy! thanks very much!
good to see you as well.
love you dave
zone
.....................
all diggs said was:
"God has foreordained all things."
Amen.
This is The Word of the Lord.
Genesis 50:20
"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring about as it is this day, to save many people alive."
Job 23:13
"But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him? He does whatever He pleases."
Psalm 115:3
"Our God is in heaven; He does whatever pleases Him."
Psalm 135:6
"The Lord does whatever pleases Him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths."
Isaiah 46:10
"I make known the end from the beginnings, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
Daniel 4:35
"All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back His hand or say to Him: What have You done?"
Lamentations 3:37-38
"Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"
Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things."
Acts 2:23
"This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing Him to the cross."
Acts 4:27-28
"For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, where gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."
Ephesians 1:11
"In Him we also obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."
Romans 11:36
"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen."
buddy! thanks very much!
good to see you as well.
love you dave
zone
.....................
all diggs said was:
"God has foreordained all things."
Amen.
This is The Word of the Lord.
Genesis 50:20
"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring about as it is this day, to save many people alive."
Job 23:13
"But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him? He does whatever He pleases."
Psalm 115:3
"Our God is in heaven; He does whatever pleases Him."
Psalm 135:6
"The Lord does whatever pleases Him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths."
Isaiah 46:10
"I make known the end from the beginnings, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
Daniel 4:35
"All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back His hand or say to Him: What have You done?"
Lamentations 3:37-38
"Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"
Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things."
Acts 2:23
"This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing Him to the cross."
Acts 4:27-28
"For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, where gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."
Ephesians 1:11
"In Him we also obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."
Romans 11:36
"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen."
P
I do thoroughly believe with out any what so ever doubt that God Made Him Christ Jesus to be Sin.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
1 Peter 1:19-20
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
It does not offend me to hear those words God made Him Christ Sin or that from the beginning of sin entering the world by Adam this was foreordained by the God of Peace.
To make Christ Sin and a Curse for us.
This is not anything I would ever be ashamed of or find shame by it or offense of any kind.
It is exactly what the word of God said it is and was one who absolutely had not sin in Him was Made Sin Made a curse by God.
For us who had that sin that brought this work and will and way of God to accomplishing all He so set forth to do to remove it from us.
Yes God made Christ to be Sin and made that Curse be put on that One who never knew any sin at all.
It was real and the wages of this were real that Christ suffered for us.
Christ was like the snake on the pole sin hanging there our own sin is what brought this need to be done to Him.
It was not His shame it was our shame He was made to be in our stead. So there can be no reason for me to be ashamed of Christ being made sin and a curse since I also caused it to be a need.
I just can not say Christ was not made sin for our sins or that Christ was not made a curse for our curse.
I can not say this was not the absolute work and made and counsel and foreordained by God all God and Christ work that made this work to be and done.
Yes it is quiet marvelous actually it is wonderful absolutely nothing but the love of God for us amazing it is.
We are very fortunate we did not get what the angels who left their first estate got.
We are very very blessed indeed through this work of God through Christ and his cross.
Hard to doubt how much our worth is in the eyes of God to him after seeing how far He lowered Him self down to raise us up from shame and death and sin.
Fabulous He is wonderful.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
1 Peter 1:19-20
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
It does not offend me to hear those words God made Him Christ Sin or that from the beginning of sin entering the world by Adam this was foreordained by the God of Peace.
To make Christ Sin and a Curse for us.
This is not anything I would ever be ashamed of or find shame by it or offense of any kind.
It is exactly what the word of God said it is and was one who absolutely had not sin in Him was Made Sin Made a curse by God.
For us who had that sin that brought this work and will and way of God to accomplishing all He so set forth to do to remove it from us.
Yes God made Christ to be Sin and made that Curse be put on that One who never knew any sin at all.
It was real and the wages of this were real that Christ suffered for us.
Christ was like the snake on the pole sin hanging there our own sin is what brought this need to be done to Him.
It was not His shame it was our shame He was made to be in our stead. So there can be no reason for me to be ashamed of Christ being made sin and a curse since I also caused it to be a need.
I just can not say Christ was not made sin for our sins or that Christ was not made a curse for our curse.
I can not say this was not the absolute work and made and counsel and foreordained by God all God and Christ work that made this work to be and done.
Yes it is quiet marvelous actually it is wonderful absolutely nothing but the love of God for us amazing it is.
We are very fortunate we did not get what the angels who left their first estate got.
We are very very blessed indeed through this work of God through Christ and his cross.
Hard to doubt how much our worth is in the eyes of God to him after seeing how far He lowered Him self down to raise us up from shame and death and sin.
Fabulous He is wonderful.
superdave!
buddy! thanks very much!
good to see you as well.
love you dave
zone
.....................
all diggs said was:
"God has foreordained all things."
Amen.
This is The Word of the Lord.
Genesis 50:20
"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring about as it is this day, to save many people alive."
The choices of men were free will choices which God, in his foreknowledge, used for His own eternal purposes.
Job 23:13
"But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him? He does whatever He pleases."
It would seem to please God to allow free will choices to His creatures.
Psalm 115:3
"Our God is in heaven; He does whatever pleases Him."
Ditto.
Psalm 135:6
"The Lord does whatever pleases Him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths."
Ditto again.
Isaiah 46:10
"I make known the end from the beginnings, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
Ditto a third time. It would appear that God's purpose was to allow free will so that His creatures would love Him freely, while also creating a redemption plan to atone for man's resulting sin, which God foreknew.
Daniel 4:35
"All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back His hand or say to Him: What have You done?"
Indeed it has pleased God to allow some autonomy to His creatures. It certainly is not God's will to see the pain and suffering that is the result of that free will, except that it fulfill a more eternal purpose. That eternal purpose is a relationship with man. The relationship that God envisioned is similar to the marriage relationship. A perfect marriage is one in which each member is volitionally free to offer love to the other.
Lamentations 3:37-38
"Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"
Indeed, when God said, "Let us make man in our image", thus with the ability to love and to do so freely, He did decree both good things and evil.
Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things."
Ditto again.
Acts 2:23
"This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing Him to the cross."
Notice foreknowledge, not foreordainment. God purposed what was to happen based on His foreknowledge of man's free will decisions.
Acts 4:27-28
"For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, where gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."
Part of God's plan of redemption, which He DID FOREORDAIN, from before the foundations of the world.
Ephesians 1:11
"In Him we also obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."
God predestined those whom He foreknew would accept the grace that He would offer them.
Romans 11:36
"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen."
buddy! thanks very much!
good to see you as well.
love you dave
zone
.....................
all diggs said was:
"God has foreordained all things."
Amen.
This is The Word of the Lord.
Genesis 50:20
"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring about as it is this day, to save many people alive."
The choices of men were free will choices which God, in his foreknowledge, used for His own eternal purposes.
Job 23:13
"But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him? He does whatever He pleases."
It would seem to please God to allow free will choices to His creatures.
Psalm 115:3
"Our God is in heaven; He does whatever pleases Him."
Ditto.
Psalm 135:6
"The Lord does whatever pleases Him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths."
Ditto again.
Isaiah 46:10
"I make known the end from the beginnings, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
Ditto a third time. It would appear that God's purpose was to allow free will so that His creatures would love Him freely, while also creating a redemption plan to atone for man's resulting sin, which God foreknew.
Daniel 4:35
"All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back His hand or say to Him: What have You done?"
Indeed it has pleased God to allow some autonomy to His creatures. It certainly is not God's will to see the pain and suffering that is the result of that free will, except that it fulfill a more eternal purpose. That eternal purpose is a relationship with man. The relationship that God envisioned is similar to the marriage relationship. A perfect marriage is one in which each member is volitionally free to offer love to the other.
Lamentations 3:37-38
"Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"
Indeed, when God said, "Let us make man in our image", thus with the ability to love and to do so freely, He did decree both good things and evil.
Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things."
Ditto again.
Acts 2:23
"This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing Him to the cross."
Notice foreknowledge, not foreordainment. God purposed what was to happen based on His foreknowledge of man's free will decisions.
Acts 4:27-28
"For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, where gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."
Part of God's plan of redemption, which He DID FOREORDAIN, from before the foundations of the world.
Ephesians 1:11
"In Him we also obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."
God predestined those whom He foreknew would accept the grace that He would offer them.
Romans 11:36
"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen."
Love ya too, Zone.
All of the above verses are very good verses. But none of them, or all of them, are indicative that God ordains sin. Instead, God foreknows that sin which results from man's free will, and He acts providentially to bring about His purposes in His creation, according to His own predetermined plan.
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Very nice. It is ever so wonderful to see that God loved us so much, that He was willing to allow us free will to love Him, even if that would result in His Son having to die a hideous death on the cross for our sins. Christ's atonement was indeed foreordained before the foundations of the world as necessary because God foreknew the resulting fall of man because of free will.
It is important to note that when God created free will creatures, He created the concept of sin. In giving His creatures the free will to disobey, the possibility of man acting on that freedom created the concept of sin. It did not create sin. In creating free will humans, God foreordained the concept or possibility of sin, but not sin itself.
Sin was created and perpetrated by the free will decisions and acts (including thoughts) of man and angels. God, in His infinite love and mercy, not wanting that all men should perish, and desiring a relationship with man, foreordained a redemption plan which required only that man love God freely, and freely accept His kind offer of grace.
As such, Jesus had to take upon Himself the sins of the world, OUR sins.
It is quite a different thing to say that God foreordained the concept, or possibility of sin, and that God foreordained sin itself.
We do not sin because God foreordained us to sin.
Instead, God foreknew that we would sin (of our own volition), and foreordained a redemption plan so that those who love Him could be saved.
It is important to note that when God created free will creatures, He created the concept of sin. In giving His creatures the free will to disobey, the possibility of man acting on that freedom created the concept of sin. It did not create sin. In creating free will humans, God foreordained the concept or possibility of sin, but not sin itself.
Sin was created and perpetrated by the free will decisions and acts (including thoughts) of man and angels. God, in His infinite love and mercy, not wanting that all men should perish, and desiring a relationship with man, foreordained a redemption plan which required only that man love God freely, and freely accept His kind offer of grace.
As such, Jesus had to take upon Himself the sins of the world, OUR sins.
It is quite a different thing to say that God foreordained the concept, or possibility of sin, and that God foreordained sin itself.
We do not sin because God foreordained us to sin.
Instead, God foreknew that we would sin (of our own volition), and foreordained a redemption plan so that those who love Him could be saved.
SuperDavester
i'm lazy....here's a simple dict. def. of ordain:
ordain [ɔːˈdeɪn]
vb (tr)
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) to consecrate (someone) as a priest; confer holy orders upon
2. (may take a clause as object) to decree, appoint, or predestine irrevocably
3. (may take a clause as object) to order, establish, or enact with authority
4. Obsolete to select for an office
i'm pretty sure nobody is saying God approves of sin. God forbid.
just saying God foreordains all things.
which you agree with, bud.
i'm a monergist tho
(hi ellie...*insert little heart from IBM which i forgot how to do*)
love in Our Savior,
zone
ps dave - you still with CChurches? still studying i see. love it.
i'm lazy
....here's a simple dict. def. of ordain:ordain [ɔːˈdeɪn]
vb (tr)
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) to consecrate (someone) as a priest; confer holy orders upon
2. (may take a clause as object) to decree, appoint, or predestine irrevocably
3. (may take a clause as object) to order, establish, or enact with authority
4. Obsolete to select for an office
i'm pretty sure nobody is saying God approves of sin. God forbid.
just saying God foreordains all things.
which you agree with, bud.
i'm a monergist tho
(hi ellie...*insert little heart from IBM which i forgot how to do*)
love in Our Savior,
zone
ps dave - you still with CChurches? still studying i see. love it.
SuperDavester
i'm lazy....here's a simple dict. def. of ordain:
ordain [ɔːˈdeɪn]
vb (tr)
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) to consecrate (someone) as a priest; confer holy orders upon
2. (may take a clause as object) to decree, appoint, or predestine irrevocably
3. (may take a clause as object) to order, establish, or enact with authority
4. Obsolete to select for an office
i'm pretty sure nobody is saying God approves of sin. God forbid.
just saying God foreordains all things.
which you agree with, bud.
i'm a monergist tho
(hi ellie...*insert little heart from IBM which i forgot how to do*)
love in Our Savior,
zone
ps dave - you still with CChurches? still studying i see. love it.
i'm lazy
....here's a simple dict. def. of ordain:ordain [ɔːˈdeɪn]
vb (tr)
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) to consecrate (someone) as a priest; confer holy orders upon
2. (may take a clause as object) to decree, appoint, or predestine irrevocably
3. (may take a clause as object) to order, establish, or enact with authority
4. Obsolete to select for an office
i'm pretty sure nobody is saying God approves of sin. God forbid.
just saying God foreordains all things.
which you agree with, bud.
i'm a monergist tho
(hi ellie...*insert little heart from IBM which i forgot how to do*)
love in Our Savior,
zone
ps dave - you still with CChurches? still studying i see. love it.
There is a subtle difference between foreknowledge and foreordainment. There is a logical exclusivity between our actions being foreordained while at the same time being free choices. An explaination is probably beyond the scope of this forum, but if you are really interested, a good book to read on the subject is The Only Wise God, The Compatibility of Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom, by William Lane Craig.
Yes, I am still studying, and I will as long as I am breathing. People ask me often why I study things that have nothing to do with salvation. I study God because I want to develop my relationship with Him.
C. H. Spurgeon said it best, (quoted in J.I. Packer, Knowing God, (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1973, pp. 13-14)
The proper study of a Christian is the Godhead. The highest science, the loftiest speculation, the mightiest philosophy, which can ever engage the attention of a child of God, is the name, the nature, the person, the work, the doings, and the existence of the great God whom he calls the Father.
There is something exceedingly improving to the mind in a comtemplation of the Divinity. It is a subject so vast, that all our thoughts are lost in the immensity, so deep, that our pride is drowned in its infinity....No subject of contemplation will tend more to humble the mind, than thoughts of God.....
But while the subject humbles the mind, it also expands it. He who often thinks of God, will have a larger mind than the man who simply plods around this narrow globe....Nothing will so enlarge the intellect, nothing so magnify the whole soul of man, as a devout, earnest, continued investigation of the great subject of Deity.
God bless
Molinism is Catholic garbage.
Molinism is Catholic garbage? Wow. Your argument is stunning!
All of the logic. All of the reasoning. All of the theology. All of the bible verses and exegesis.
It's all Catholic garbage. Why didn't I think of that!
Why is it Catholic garbage? We don't know, because you don't say.
It doesn't matter. We don't need to know. You have said it, and that's all that matters.
M
Sin is very similar when we look at all the major religions. ‘Sin’ is the religious term historically used to describe the darker, destructive aspects of our non-ideal human state or condition. read this article posted below which describes 'Sin'
http://www.worldtransformation.com
http://www.worldtransformation.com