God Will Judge His House First At Pre Trib Rapture

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Dec 21, 2012
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#1
We know of this promise in Jesus Christ:

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And yet there is this prophesy of the falling away from the faith:

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

That will mean that God has to judge His House first.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

What does that mean and how is it related to the pre tribulational rapture?

What we build on that foundation in Christ Jesus will be judged.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.....23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Now I know that this sounds harsh that some believers think they can lose their salvation or worse, judge other former believers as if they were never saved in the first place, but that is not what is being written here. One cannot arrive at those errant conclusions from verses 16-17 if they have truly taken verse 15 & 23 in account. So what is going on? What is being destroyed?

Let us turn to another reference about exactly what that destruction entails.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Do note that there are other errors out there than can turn a believer from the truth and overthrow their faith in Jesus Christ besides the one mentioned in verse 18. We read on to see that in spite of that crisis of faith, this promise remains in Christ Jesus as every believer is sealed as His forever.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Proof of that is here:

Ephesians 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


But note the distinction between the vessels unto honour & the vessels unto dishonour in His House in 2 Timothy 2:19-21 is that a believer departed from iniquity with His help and by His grace. So the ones that did not depart from iniquity are the ones being destroyed from being that vessel unto honour in His House into becoming that vessel unto dishonour in His House at the pre tribulational rapture event.

Jesus gave many warnings about those that profess Him and are left behind from sitting down with the OT saints at the Marriage Supper.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Most believers misread His words to mean that these "believers' were never saved, but remember 2 Timothy 2:18-22 about every believer needing to depart from iniquity, and the ones that do not are vessels unto dishonour in His House? So how does this oppose His words in Luke's reference above?

Answer: they do not. Jesus was identifying the iniquity that these believers were doing, and when comparing that with Matthew 7:13-27 reference, we can see that the iniquity was by broadening the way in approaching God the Father other than by way of the Son of which the fruit of these false prophets will be known by its ecumenicalistic efforts of gathering grapes of thorns & figs of thistles.

This broadening of the way is the iniquity by which Jesus would refer to being the significance of knowing Him and knowing God the Father by Him, and thus Him knowing us in fellowship or not knowing us.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Contenders will say that never knowing Him means they were never saved, but not so.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So what does it mean to deny someone? Not acknowledging that person just as not acknowledging Him, therefore as a former believer or an errant believer denies Him, so will he be denied when God judges His House, leaving him behind to face the coming great tribulation, but they are still His.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Why? Remember how wood, stubble, & hay will be burned up, but yet he will be saved so as by fire?

Philippians 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Why does it mean that unrepenatant believers have tol be left behind from the Marriage Supper? Just as Paul taught about excommunication of an unrepentant believer, so will God do to His House.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

If God requires us for maintaining proper fellowship down here, then you know He will judge His House at the pre tribulational rapture event in this way also for any believer attending the Marriage Supper.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

God is calling believers to prepare themselves by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight and sin that so easily besets us so we can run that race for that high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honour in His House to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Note verse 16-17 above & reflect on that part about there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth of those left behind.

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

So the danger of refusing Him does not jeopardize the receiving of the kingdom which cannot be moved: but a believer can lose his birthright to attend the Marriage Supper.

Note the significance of God having the need to wipe the tears from the eyes of these saints coming out of the great tribulation.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

These saints had died in their sins & iniquities and thus needed their robes washed white in the blood of the Lamb. The loss of their inheritance was so great that the weeping and gnashing of teeth cannot end until God performs that miracle by wiping the tears from their eyes to get past that loss.

The glorifying power of God in salvation in Jesus Christ for even those that believe in His name will be seen by these vessels unto dishonour in His House.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So the prodigal son will find that he is still son, but at the expense of giving up his eternal inhertance for wild living. Still, while the door is open for the Marriage Supper, may every believer having His seal, look to the author & finisher of our faith to depart from iniquity to be made ready to attend the Supper.
 
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webchatter

Guest
#2
Sp you have 2 verses which have the word "tears" in them & that makes you think you can live & die in sins, without repenting, still go to heaven, & that makes it a pretrib rapture? Wow. The reason they have tears, is because they came out of the trib which is explained in the verse you quoted. That explains it is NOT pretrib rapture.
 
I

Indubitably

Guest
#3
Wow.. a Thesis and a debate over the rapture. And all in the first two posts.

I am still trying to ascertain the argument being made in the original post by Enow. Being a Greek, and student of the Greek, all I got was a declaration of about 5 different debatable doctrines. Maybe you could narrow it down to one so that replies don't get confusing and can I reply with some certainty.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#4
Sp you have 2 verses which have the word "tears" in them & that makes you think you can live & die in sins, without repenting, still go to heaven, & that makes it a pretrib rapture? Wow. The reason they have tears, is because they came out of the trib which is explained in the verse you quoted. That explains it is NOT pretrib rapture.
No. There are alot of verses for you to consider and not just how I connect the tears together.

You did note how Esau was mentioned & the significance of his tears for missing out on his birthright? Why mention him at all unless in symbolism, that is what will happen to a believer in iniquity?

Explain how a believer having His seal is called to depart from iniquity, and those that do not depart will become vessels unto dishonour in His House in 2 Timothy 2:18-21

Explain the importance of what we build on that foundation which was laid in Christ Jesus will result in a believer going through a fire to be saved, and yet be destroyed for defiling the temple of God, and yet again, still declared as belonging to Him in 1 Corinthians 3:10-23

Explain how Jesus can say this below?

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Isn't the standard for maintaining proper fellowship in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter is how God will judge His House at the pre tribulational rapture event for excluding those errant saints that did not depart from iniquity from attending the Marriahe Supper?

Or how about how a wicked & unreasonable men that do not have faith that depart from the traditions taught of us are to be withdrawn from, but not treated as an enemy, but admonished as a brother?

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;........14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

And no. A believer living in sin should know that God will scourge every child He receives: Hebrews 12th chapter. Receiving many stripes & being destroyed from being that vessel unto honour in His House into becoming a vessel of idshonour in His House is a very painful damnation of a loss similar to Esau for which God will have to wipe the tears from their eyes to get past that loss.

Believers should look to Jesus Christ for help to depart from iniquity in that hope to avoid those stripes and be ready to attend the Marriage Supper when the Bridegroom comes.
 
G

gracethroughfaith

Guest
#5
Explain how a believer having His seal is called to depart from iniquity, and those that do not depart will become vessels unto dishonour in His House in 2 Timothy 2:18-21
Enow:
This passage in 2 Timothy 2:19-21 does not say there are vessels of dishonour in his (God's) house. Read the passage please.

2 Timothy 2:19-21 (KJV)
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

We see God teaches us here there are those of honour and dishonour. We are to purge ourselves of the dishonourable things, then we shall be a vessel unto honour, and sanctified.

Nowere does it say there will be anything disnonourable in God's kingdom.

Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If you sin you are a sinner and no sin or sinner has any part in the kingdom of God.
If we are a sinner we are serving sin it is our master. If we are serving sin we have no part with the LORD Jesus.
Romans 6:6 (KJV)
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

John 8:34-35 (KJV)
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Romans 6:15-23 (KJV)
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If you are a vessel of dishonour you are corrupt and we know by the WORD of God that corruption can not and will not inherit incorruption, God's Kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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#6
Seems to me that the Righteous are not Judged.

It is only the unrighteous who are Judged.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#7
This passage in 2 Timothy 2:19-21 does not say there are vessels of dishonour in his (God's) house. Read the passage please.

2 Timothy 2:19-21 (KJV)
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

We see God teaches us here there are those of honour and dishonour. We are to purge ourselves of the dishonourable things, then we shall be a vessel unto honour, and sanctified.

Nowere does it say there will be anything disnonourable in God's kingdom.


Please reread the reference with the included emboldened in colors.

It testifies that there are vessels of wood and earth that are vessel unto dishonour.

Then it says that if a vessel purge himself by departing from iniquity, he will be a vessel unto honour in His House.

I am not disagreeing with those verses about who will not have the inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

What I am seeing by His grace and by His help is that there is an inheritance of being in that city of God as in where the Father is so will the vessels unto honour be.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

Those left behind as not departing from iniquity are vessels unto dishonour as wood and earth as these saints will be resurrected after the great tribulation to rule and minister with Christ during His milleniel reign on earth. That will be their inheritance.

The prodigal son gave up his first inheritance for wild living and so that inheritance is gone forever. But on returning, he finds he is still son and is given a ring and a robe and a celebration. The point about the elder son was that the father told him that all that he has was his, which is indicative that it was not the same for the prodigal son.

So what glory awaits the vessels unto honour in His House, I can not imagine, but God keeps His promise as our confidence is in Him to finish what He has begun in us, even in those left behind also, as He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So that first inheritance of attending the Marriage Supper is what I believe John was referring to about not losing our full reward.

2 John 1:8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#8
Wow.. a Thesis and a debate over the rapture. And all in the first two posts.

I am still trying to ascertain the argument being made in the original post by Enow. Being a Greek, and student of the Greek, all I got was a declaration of about 5 different debatable doctrines. Maybe you could narrow it down to one so that replies don't get confusing and can I reply with some certainty.
We know of this promise in Jesus Christ:

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And yet there is this prophesy of the falling away from the faith:

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

That will mean WHY God has to judge His House first. What else would signal the end of the times of the Gentiles other than the falling away from the faith? If the rejectiion of the chief cornerstone places the despensation of the Gospel in the hands of the Gentiles, then the falling away from the faith would place the despensation of the gospel back in the hands of the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses for the duration of the great tribulation after the rapture event.
 
M

MaggieMye

Guest
#9
Not to hijack this thread, but the "Pre-Trib" rapture concept did not appear until the 1830's. It is not Biblical.

Maggie
 
S

spirit1st

Guest
#10
We Never get judged in the eternal ! He Will deal with us in the flesh! but Spiritually we are Never judged !We do the judging !
1Co_6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co_6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Jas_1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas_2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

God wipes away our tears by us never remembering our sins ! Our spirit mind only takes those things we did out of pure LOVE! That why we remember our Moms and Dads , We really loved them ! Our spirit is what God makes the New Creature ! It the temple of GOD! Where He never leaves or forsakes! It cannot Sin , once born of GOD perfect SEED !
1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. It our Spirit that Born of GOD and It only our new Spirit that cannot sin !
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#11
Not to hijack this thread, but the "Pre-Trib" rapture concept did not appear until the 1830's. It is not Biblical.


Jesus calls believers to be His disciples and to be ready.

The pre tribulational rapture has been what He was talking about in being ready.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Can believers buy and sell during the great tribulation? No. And yet the warnings above is given to believers as if they can buy and sell to be ensnared unwittingly by. The danger is now and the call to be ready is now before the Bridegroom comes.

If still unconvinced: read Luke 14:15-33 and discern with His help the requirement for believers in being His disciples for readiness to leave to attend the Marriage Supper.
 
B

Brucenorm

Guest
#12
The Partial Rapture View


"church" RAPTURE "church"
(present age) (tribulation)

Hal Lindsey's "The Rapture" (1983, p. 26) says partial rapturists see only "spiritual" church members in the rapture and only "carnal" members of the church in the tribulation. John Walvoord's "The Rapture Question" (1979, p. 97) refers to partial rapturists as "pretribulationists." Leading partial rapturists including Pember and Govett see all of the "church" on earth before a pretrib rapture and only part of the "church" left behind to be tried by the Antichrist - truly the "church-splitting" view as shown in the above chart!
In the spring of 1830 Scottish lassie Margaret Macdonald was first to teach a pretrib rapture. It was actually an early version of partial rapturism because she said that after the rapture of "church" members "filled with the Spirit," the "church" members "who had not the Spirit" would be left behind to be tried by "THE WICKED" one (Antichrist). In Sep.1830 Edward Irving's journal "The Morning Watch" (hereafter: TMW) was the first to publicly echo her novel view when it stated that "Philadelphia" (the "spiritual" part of the universal church) is raptured before "the great tribulation" while "Laodicea" (the "carnal" part of that universal group) is left on earth.
John Darby, the so-called "father of dispensationalism," was still defending the historical posttrib rapture ("Christian Herald," Dec. 1830) which he described as Christ's coming for "His judging of the nations."
Pretrib didn't spring from a "church/Israel" dichotomy, as many have assumed, but from a "church/church" one, as we've seen, and was based only on symbols!
But innate anti-Jewishness soon appeared. (As noted, TMW (Sep. 1830) saw less worthy "church" members left behind.) Two years later (Sep. 1832) TMW said that "Jews" and less worthy Christians would miss the rapture. But by Mar. 1833 TMW was sure that only "Jews" would face the Antichrist!
As late as 1837 the non-dichotomous Darby saw the church "going in with Him to the marriage, to wit, with Jerusalem and the Jews." And he didn't clearly teach pretrib until 1839. His basis then was the Rev. 12:5 "man child...caught up" symbol he'd "borrowed" (without giving credit) from Irving who had been the first to use it for the same purpose in 1831!
For related articles Google "X-Raying Margaret," "Edward Irving is Unnerving," "Pretrib Rapture's Missing Lines," "The Unoriginal John Darby," "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by D.M., "Pretrib Rapture Pride," "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" and "Scholars Weigh My Research." The most detailed and accurate book on pretrib rapture history is "The Rapture Plot" (see Armageddon Books online) - a 300-pager that has hundreds of disarming facts (like the ones above) not found in any other source.

[Very informative blog. Above is what I encountered that may add to the rapture discussion. Lord bless.]
 
J

JW

Guest
#13
Not to hijack this thread, but the "Pre-Trib" rapture concept did not appear until the 1830's. It is not Biblical.

Maggie
I don't know if this thread is still active, and this response will be almost a year removed, but to the quoted statement
above, I offer this excerpt from the publication, The Partial Rapture "Theory" Explained / Escaping The Coming Storm.
(With nocopyright infringement involved.)

Since I found "it" (the teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Partial Rapture) in the New Testament, the early Church had to have beenaware of it. Hence, there would be documentation of that knowledge in Christianmanuscripts external of the accepted Spirit inspired scripture.

Although these extra biblical texts are not inspired of God, many were writtenby legitimate well-meaning church leaders and genuine Christian layman who wereexpressing their true beliefs and doctrines that were circulating in theChristian world during their lifetime. Those texts would reflect what wasbelieved by a portion of the Church, however correct or incorrect the doctrineto be.

This is in no way unfamiliar to us today in relation to our own well-meaningChristian authors. Every bookstore with a religious section containing works ofa Christian nature will have a number of manuscripts that any one of us woulddisagree with concerning doctrine or beliefs. But the contents of thosemanuscripts do contain the doctrine and beliefs of the author. He or shedoes believe what they have penned however correct or incorrect theirunderstandings to be in relation to the truth regarding the chosen subjects.

The Shepherd of Hermes is one such ancient document.

We will acknowledge first that much of what is recorded in these texts does notagree with the teachings of the scripture. That fact alone establishes thecomplete set of manuscripts of no doctrinal value. But, setting aside thatdetail for the moment in order to analyze the contents of these documents, welearn one of the records makes mention of a vision the “shepherd” had of agiant raging beast. This animal made an attempt to charge the shepherdpresumably to cause him great harm. The shepherd, however was able to escape byrelying on God for protection.

The next vision he encounters is that of a beautiful maiden, identified by theshepherd himself as the Church. She in turn identifies the creature as anillustration of the Great Tribulation to come, and tells him he escaped it byputting his full trust in God. She then gives him the responsibility ofinforming all other believers they can do the same, but only if they too puttheir full trust in the Lord.

This is a very brief look and oversimplification of the content of thosemanuscripts. But since they have been accepted to have been written in thesecond century, it is concrete proof that the “concept” of the Rapture ingeneral (as referring to an escape from a future time of Great Tribulation) andconditions connected to participating in that specific escape existed outsideof Biblical text, but inside the body of the Church, to within approximatelyone hundred years of the physical death of Jesus Christ.

Even if the doctrine were to be in error, it was still a belief of a portion of themembership of the Church, regardless of how few, documented to as early as thesecond century and there exists earlier evidence. Anyone canhonestly choose to believe and thereby continue to teach the doctrine to be inerror, but one cannot deny that it was believed by a portion of the earlyChurch. It existed, that is a fact.

 
J

JW

Guest
#14
Not to hijack this thread, but the "Pre-Trib" rapture concept did not appear until the 1830's. It is not Biblical.

Maggie
I don’t know if this thread is still active,and my response will be almost a year removed, but. In response to the abovequote, I offer this excerpt from the book, The Partial Rapture “Theory”Explained / Escaping The Coming Storm. (There has been no copyright infringementin conjunction with this post.) (And, after I posted this the first time, the transfer ran some of the words together. I tried to correct, but the board doesn't give me enough time to do so. If it happens again, just overlook it.

Since I found “it” (the doctrine of ThePre-Tribulation Partial Rapture) in the New Testament, the early Church had tohave been aware of it. Hence, there would be documentation of that knowledge inChristian manuscripts external of the accepted Spirit inspired scripture.

Although these extra biblical texts are not inspired of God, many were writtenby legitimate well-meaning church leaders and genuine Christian layman who wereexpressing their true beliefs and doctrines that were circulating in theChristian world during their lifetime. Those texts would reflect what wasbelieved by a portion of the Church, however correct or incorrect the doctrineto be.

This is in no way unfamiliar to us today in relation to our own well-meaningChristian authors. Every bookstore with a religious section containing works ofa Christian nature will have a number of manuscripts that any one of us woulddisagree with concerning faith, doctrine or beliefs. But the contents of thosemanuscripts do contain the faith, doctrine and beliefs of the author. He or shedoes believe what they have penned however correct or incorrect theirunderstandings to be in relation to the truth regarding the chosen subjects.

The Shepherd of Hermes is one such ancient document.

We will acknowledge first that much of what is recorded in these texts does notagree with the teachings of the scripture. That fact alone establishes thecomplete set of manuscripts of no doctrinal value. But, setting aside thatdetail for the moment in order to analyze the contents of these documents, welearn one of the records makes mention of a vision the “shepherd” had of agiant raging beast. This animal made an attempt to charge the shepherdpresumably to cause him great harm. The shepherd, however was able to escape byrelying on God for protection.

The next vision he encounters is that of a beautiful maiden, identified by theshepherd himself as the Church. She in turn identifies the creature as anillustration of the Great Tribulation to come, and tells him he escaped it byputting his full trust in God. She then gives him the responsibility ofinforming all other believers they can do the same, but only if they too puttheir full trust in the Lord.

This is a very brief look and oversimplification of the content of thosemanuscripts. But since they have been accepted to have been written in thesecond century, it is concrete proof that the “concept” of the Rapture ingeneral (as referring to an escape from a future time of Great Tribulation) andconditions connected to participating in that specific escape existed outsideof Biblical text, but inside the body of the Church, to within approximatelyone hundred years of the physical death of Jesus Christ.

Even if the doctrine were to be in error, it was a belief of a portionof the membership of the Church, regardless of how few, documented to as earlyas the second century and there exists earlier evidence. Anyone can honestlychoose to believe and thereby continue to teach the doctrine to be in error,but no one can honestly continue to deny that it was a belief by a portion ofthe early Church. It existed, that is a fact.


 
J

JW

Guest
#15
Even if the doctrine were to be in error, it was a belief of a portionof the membership of the Church, regardless of how few, documented to as earlyas the second century and there exists earlier evidence. Anyone can honestlychoose to believe and thereby continue to teach the doctrine to be in error,but no one can honestly continue to deny that it was a belief by a portion ofthe early Church. It existed, that is a fact.
In conclusion, Margrete McDonald was nowhere near the first to teach the concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. And her versions contains elements in it that are conducive to the teachings (confirming, not originating) that the Rapture will be conditional. Hence the debate that exists today between Pre-Trib Partial Rapurists and Pre-Trib Rapture only-ists.
 
J

JW

Guest
#16
Sorry to the webmasters of this message board. I wasn't aware of my double posting. Please delete my first post and this one. Thank you.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#17
no, because there isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture. It is Satan's great deception. Those that fall for his deception will be fooled and led to the slaughter.
 
J

John_S

Guest
#18
no, because there isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture. It is Satan's great deception. Those that fall for his deception will be fooled and led to the slaughter.
My sentiments EXACTLY.
 

konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
615
21
18
#19
The doctrine of rewards for the believer is very thorough in the New Testament. Jesus also had many parables about rewards. The marriage supper of the Lamb is a beautiful picture of that reward. It does seem like many views of eschatology don't properly emphasize the idea of rewards that is so prevalent throughout Scripture, yet it's in the very nature of faith itself. "He who comes to God must believe that He is, and He rewards those who seek Him."
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#20
For those that do not believe in a partial pre trib rapture: explain how Paul can say he can become a castaway below.

1 Corinthians 9:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26[SUP] [/SUP]I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: [SUP]27 [/SUP]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So are we working to keep our salvation? No.

John 6:[SUP]39 [/SUP]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him and yet ths was prophesied of the falling away from the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [SUP]2 [/SUP]Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

So that is why God is judging His House first at the pre tribulational rapture event and why Jesus has been warning His disciples to prepare themselves to be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes. Reread the OP once more to see how all those verses tie in by His grace & by His help. Amen.