Grace: A License to Sin (FALSE!)
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I think then that you can appreciate this, Willie-T. 
Last week I was "volunteered" by my new church to do a scripture memorization in front of the congregation for this morning. I was rather nervous as #1: I'm not very familiar yet with the folks there #2. I'm not the most gifted speaker #3. I'm quite introverted and don't like being the center of attention. In short, my heart was willing but my flesh was weak.
So this morning my hands were sweaty and my heart was beating a little faster before church service and I began to pray for the Lord to help me. I started to get myself psyched up and gave myself a pep talk and grew quite confident.
But when I realized what I was doing, that I was trying to accomplish something in my own strength, I had a change of heart. "Lord, I need You! I want You to do this thing through me in spite of my fear. I don't wanna be strong, I want YOU to be strong! I want You to be glorified in my weakness!!!"
Guess what? I couldn't stop the joy in my heart from gushing over as I walked up to the front of the church with sweaty palms & butterflies in my stomach and my heart racing. I stood in front of the mic and looked out and saw only my son's face smiling over the sea of other faces. And I joyfully submitted to the Holy Spirit as He helped me to quote a scripture from the book of Isaiah to the church.
What joy to know that Jesus accomplished His will through me and how faithful He proves Himself to me. I'm so glad I could never tell that story and say that I obeyed. The truth it, Jesus glorified Himself and was strong in my weakness. What I could not do, the Lord did through me.
Hallelujah! \/
Last week I was "volunteered" by my new church to do a scripture memorization in front of the congregation for this morning. I was rather nervous as #1: I'm not very familiar yet with the folks there #2. I'm not the most gifted speaker #3. I'm quite introverted and don't like being the center of attention. In short, my heart was willing but my flesh was weak.
So this morning my hands were sweaty and my heart was beating a little faster before church service and I began to pray for the Lord to help me. I started to get myself psyched up and gave myself a pep talk and grew quite confident.
But when I realized what I was doing, that I was trying to accomplish something in my own strength, I had a change of heart. "Lord, I need You! I want You to do this thing through me in spite of my fear. I don't wanna be strong, I want YOU to be strong! I want You to be glorified in my weakness!!!"
Guess what? I couldn't stop the joy in my heart from gushing over as I walked up to the front of the church with sweaty palms & butterflies in my stomach and my heart racing. I stood in front of the mic and looked out and saw only my son's face smiling over the sea of other faces. And I joyfully submitted to the Holy Spirit as He helped me to quote a scripture from the book of Isaiah to the church.
What joy to know that Jesus accomplished His will through me and how faithful He proves Himself to me. I'm so glad I could never tell that story and say that I obeyed. The truth it, Jesus glorified Himself and was strong in my weakness. What I could not do, the Lord did through me.
Hallelujah! \
/
Wow it's been eerily quiet here... 7 hours since someone's taken a swing.
So really, based on arguments made here on CC among these oh so many like threads, based on my own thread in which we broke down each individual argument, based on study, and based on experience, this is how it really works:
1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.
2. Righteousness/Salvation is based upon belief/faith.
3. Belief and faith are not acts of works.
4. We are not saved by acts of works.
5. Works are a reliable discerner of salvation status
6. Once His, God will never turn us away because of our works
7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve
8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselfs away from salvation
9. Disbelief is not an act of works
10. Salvation is not lost by works.
11. Salvation is lost by apostasy
So really, based on arguments made here on CC among these oh so many like threads, based on my own thread in which we broke down each individual argument, based on study, and based on experience, this is how it really works:
1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.
2. Righteousness/Salvation is based upon belief/faith.
3. Belief and faith are not acts of works.
4. We are not saved by acts of works.
5. Works are a reliable discerner of salvation status
6. Once His, God will never turn us away because of our works
7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve
8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselfs away from salvation
9. Disbelief is not an act of works
10. Salvation is not lost by works.
11. Salvation is lost by apostasy
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; (2 Timothy 4:3).
Some here are saying that you can sin and still be saved. Some here believe you can commit suicide and be saved. Some here believe you can not forgive and still be forgiven. A person's ears are itched or tickled into hearing what is more comforting to them (Rather than how things realy are in the Bible and life).
Some here are saying that you can sin and still be saved. Some here believe you can commit suicide and be saved. Some here believe you can not forgive and still be forgiven. A person's ears are itched or tickled into hearing what is more comforting to them (Rather than how things realy are in the Bible and life).
Those who abide in Jesus will bring forth fruit. If they do not abide in Jesus, then no fruit will be evident in their life and they are cast forth as a branch to be burned.
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:5-6).
In addition, we also access the free gift of God thru faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). But if one's faith is dead, then they cannot access the grace of God, though. For James 2:17 says faith without works is a dead kind of faith."Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
This makes sense because in Hebrews 11 describes faith as being both a belief and as an action.
Remember, also that Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.
Exactly. It's about belief and unbelief. Any verse that talks about following Jesus and abiding in His good ways you can choose not to believe it with dire consequences. For if we choose not to believe the Bible when it says we are to forgive, and yet we do not heed the Word, then we will not be forgiven. If we choose not to believe the Bible when it says if you hate your brother then we are a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (Then that will be fulfilled as the Word says despite our disbelief in such a verse). For a servant of sin will not abide in the house of the Son forever (John 8:35). This would even include me (For I am not above the Word of God).
Belief and works go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other. Those who believe God will do what He says. Peter could have walked on water (i.e. Which was a work) but it was his lack of disbelief in doing that work that did not allow him to do so.
Again, which is not what the Bible teaches. The Scriptures say this,
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. (TItus 1:16).
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:5-6).
In addition, we also access the free gift of God thru faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). But if one's faith is dead, then they cannot access the grace of God, though. For James 2:17 says faith without works is a dead kind of faith."Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
This makes sense because in Hebrews 11 describes faith as being both a belief and as an action.
Remember, also that Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.
Exactly. It's about belief and unbelief. Any verse that talks about following Jesus and abiding in His good ways you can choose not to believe it with dire consequences. For if we choose not to believe the Bible when it says we are to forgive, and yet we do not heed the Word, then we will not be forgiven. If we choose not to believe the Bible when it says if you hate your brother then we are a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (Then that will be fulfilled as the Word says despite our disbelief in such a verse). For a servant of sin will not abide in the house of the Son forever (John 8:35). This would even include me (For I am not above the Word of God).
Belief and works go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other. Those who believe God will do what He says. Peter could have walked on water (i.e. Which was a work) but it was his lack of disbelief in doing that work that did not allow him to do so.
Again, which is not what the Bible teaches. The Scriptures say this,
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. (TItus 1:16).
In fact, bearing forth fruit or works is one of the ways that helps a believer to stop sinning according to the Bible. There is also hiding God's Word within your heart. There is also praying so as not to be led into temptation. There is also controlling your words as per James 3:2. For one's words can bridle their body. There is also removing yourself from sinful situations that you keep putting yourself into all the time (Like when Joseph ran away from a sexually tempting situation). There is quoting Scripture when you are tempted (Like when Jesus quoted Scripture to defeat the devil). A believer can conquer sin. I know. I have done it before and I feel soon I am able to do so again and be a slave to righteousness again (And not a slave to sin). For I love Jesus and I do not want to sin against Him. I want to live for Him in all I say and do. Some here may not want that. Some here may want their sin, too. But that will be on them and they will have to answer to the Lord as to why they chose to do so. For all those who reject the words of Jesus, those very words will judge them on the last day (John 12:48).
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Jason, just stop.
Time after time people here have proven what you espouse is nothing but work-based salvation heresy. No different from Catholicism or any other cult out there.
You trot out the same stuff like a broken record, even though it's been dealt with a hundred times over. You just start yet another "work hard or God will get rid of you" thread, or simply ignore sound doctrine/instruction so as to keep people under bondage to the Law. You have brought a curse upon yourself, as you attempt to get others cursed:
"All who rely on observing the Law are under a curse, for it is written; ' cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the Law.' Clearly, no one is justified before God by the Law, because the righteous will live by faith." (Galatians 3:10,11)
You trample the grace of Christ underfoot by your insistence that strict obedience is required to keep oneself in God's family.
The Bible cannot be clearer: "Christ is the end of the Law." (Romans 10:4)
Get off your self-righteous throne.
Time after time people here have proven what you espouse is nothing but work-based salvation heresy. No different from Catholicism or any other cult out there.
You trot out the same stuff like a broken record, even though it's been dealt with a hundred times over. You just start yet another "work hard or God will get rid of you" thread, or simply ignore sound doctrine/instruction so as to keep people under bondage to the Law. You have brought a curse upon yourself, as you attempt to get others cursed:
"All who rely on observing the Law are under a curse, for it is written; ' cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the Law.' Clearly, no one is justified before God by the Law, because the righteous will live by faith." (Galatians 3:10,11)
You trample the grace of Christ underfoot by your insistence that strict obedience is required to keep oneself in God's family.
The Bible cannot be clearer: "Christ is the end of the Law." (Romans 10:4)
Get off your self-righteous throne.
I can imagine this scenario if one spoke to you face-to-face:
Lost person: "How do I get saved?"
Jason: "Repent, and then you must work hard to keep your salvation."
Lost Person: "What if I continue to commit sins?"
Jason: "Then you were never saved. Saved people don't sin."
Lost Person: "Do you still sin?"
Jason: "Did you not hear me?"
Lost Person: "What is God's love based on?"
Jason: "Works"
Lost Person: "I must work to keep God's love?"
Jason: "Well, do you think God's gonna love you if you keep disobeying Him?"
Lost Person: "So, after salvation, it's pretty much up to me to stay saved, right?"
Jason: "What part of 'works' don't you understand?"
L
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[TD="width: 100%, align: left"]Romans 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"]Some Christians believe that although you have forgiveness of sins, you are not free from the penalties of your sins. In other words, you can still expect punishment from God. For example, some married Christian couples have been told that they are childless because God is punishing them for having had pre-marital sex. So although God has forgiven them of that sin, He still has to punish them for it.
I am certainly not for pre-marital sex, but I want you to know that God, who is the only one who can fully appreciate the full value of His Son’s blood and who is completely satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, is at rest in His heart today concerning your sins! That is why He is not against you even when you fail. Neither is He out to punish you when you sin. No, He still loves you, is for you and wants to help you overcome that sin.
In the Old Testament, the blood of bulls and goats could only “cover” sins and not take them away. (Hebrews 10:4) But the blood of Jesus is not like the blood of animals! For by one sacrifice, the eternal blood of the Son of God has forever removed your sins (Psalm 103:12) and cleansed you of all unrighteousness! (1 John 1:9) In fact, God is so satisfied with His Son’s perfect work that He says to you today, “Your sins and lawless deeds I will by no means remember!” (Hebrews 10:17) And if God does not remember them, why would He punish you for them?
Beloved, you have “redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace”. Because Jesus’ work is complete, all your sins have been completely forgiven. And complete forgiveness means that the penalties for your sins can no longer fall on you because they had already fallen on Jesus at the cross. (Isaiah 53:5)
So don’t think for one moment that God is punishing you for some sin just because something bad happened to you. Look to the cross and know that all your sins have already been punished fully in the body of Christ. Believe that God is for you and expect victory![/TD]
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[TD="width: 100%, align: left"]Romans 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"][/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"]Some Christians believe that although you have forgiveness of sins, you are not free from the penalties of your sins. In other words, you can still expect punishment from God. For example, some married Christian couples have been told that they are childless because God is punishing them for having had pre-marital sex. So although God has forgiven them of that sin, He still has to punish them for it.
I am certainly not for pre-marital sex, but I want you to know that God, who is the only one who can fully appreciate the full value of His Son’s blood and who is completely satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, is at rest in His heart today concerning your sins! That is why He is not against you even when you fail. Neither is He out to punish you when you sin. No, He still loves you, is for you and wants to help you overcome that sin.
In the Old Testament, the blood of bulls and goats could only “cover” sins and not take them away. (Hebrews 10:4) But the blood of Jesus is not like the blood of animals! For by one sacrifice, the eternal blood of the Son of God has forever removed your sins (Psalm 103:12) and cleansed you of all unrighteousness! (1 John 1:9) In fact, God is so satisfied with His Son’s perfect work that He says to you today, “Your sins and lawless deeds I will by no means remember!” (Hebrews 10:17) And if God does not remember them, why would He punish you for them?
Beloved, you have “redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace”. Because Jesus’ work is complete, all your sins have been completely forgiven. And complete forgiveness means that the penalties for your sins can no longer fall on you because they had already fallen on Jesus at the cross. (Isaiah 53:5)
So don’t think for one moment that God is punishing you for some sin just because something bad happened to you. Look to the cross and know that all your sins have already been punished fully in the body of Christ. Believe that God is for you and expect victory![/TD]
[/TR]
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Based on arguments made here on CC among these oh so many like threads, based on my own thread in which we broke down each individual argument, based on study, and based on experience, this is how it really works:
1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.
FALSE. Belief is not something we DO. It is a response to credible evidence, and a consequence of conviction. It is thus God and His word which bring us through to faith by the working of His Holy Spirit. 'Faith comes by hearing and hearing by God's direct word'.
2. FALSE. Righteousness/salvation is based on God's work, including His activity through the cross, providing a way by which men may first be accounted righteous, and secondly made righteous. It is received through faith.
3. True, so we are not 'free' to do them.
Completely true.
5. True to a certain extent because once believe we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph 2.10). But many do works who are not saved.!!!
True.
FALSE. We do not control belief. It is a response to 'evidence', whether literal or spiritual. What we can do is choose to turn our backs but then we know that the Shepherd will seek us until He finds us.
Totally FALSE Salvation is God's work. He does not leave it to us. He works it upon us and within us. His guarantee was that He would never fail (John 6.39; 1 Cor 1.8-9; Phil 2.6 etc.)
It is not an act at all. We do not choose to disbelieve although we can choose to turn way from God. But as Jesus promised, if we do and are really His, He will seek us until He finds us (Luke 15.4).
10. Very true. Salvation is in God's hands. It can never be lost.
Totally FALSE. No one who has the Holy Spirit within them, and has been born of the Spirit, will FINALLY apostasies.
Salvation is God's work not ours. If salvation fails, God has failed. And that is impossible.
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You are free from the penalties of sin. What you are not necessarily free from are the consequences of sin. Thus David lost his child, and David's adultery and murder resulted in his sons copying him.
God's forgiveness in the OT was based on the cross. Thus it was equally efficacious. But sin does have consequences.
This is of course folly. Nevertheless it might still have some consequences. Any sin we commit is like a ripple that continues on and on, even when it is forgiven. That is why sin is so dangerous. God does not always choose to stop the ripple.
Certainly so from an eternal point of view. But not necessarily temporarily. Whom the LORD loves He chastens. An the consequences are often our chastening.
For which reason He may well chasten you.
True but Christ died 'for sins done aforetime' (Rom 3.25). Thus OT atonement was just as efficacious.
It is not a question of punishment but of chastening. He chastens in love. The verse does not really mean that God will not remember them. God remembers EVERYTHING. It means that He will act towards us as though He had forgotten them. But He does have our wellbeing in mind. And He does allow the consequences of sin to go on. Thus someone's laxity in sexual matters may have consequences of example which affects others.
But do recognise that He may be chastening you for your good. Otherwise much of life is inexplicable. Therefore let the consequences of your sins turn your hearts towards God so that you may learn from them. And thank Him for it.
God's forgiveness in the OT was based on the cross. Thus it was equally efficacious. But sin does have consequences.
This is of course folly. Nevertheless it might still have some consequences. Any sin we commit is like a ripple that continues on and on, even when it is forgiven. That is why sin is so dangerous. God does not always choose to stop the ripple.
Certainly so from an eternal point of view. But not necessarily temporarily. Whom the LORD loves He chastens. An the consequences are often our chastening.
For which reason He may well chasten you.
True but Christ died 'for sins done aforetime' (Rom 3.25). Thus OT atonement was just as efficacious.
It is not a question of punishment but of chastening. He chastens in love. The verse does not really mean that God will not remember them. God remembers EVERYTHING. It means that He will act towards us as though He had forgotten them. But He does have our wellbeing in mind. And He does allow the consequences of sin to go on. Thus someone's laxity in sexual matters may have consequences of example which affects others.
But do recognise that He may be chastening you for your good. Otherwise much of life is inexplicable. Therefore let the consequences of your sins turn your hearts towards God so that you may learn from them. And thank Him for it.
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These two statements seem to contradict one another. God's desire is that everyone be saved, but many people are in fact lost. If its all about God's work, and some people are lost, then God has failed; but you state it is impossible for God to fail. I'm with Ricky, we have free will to believe or disbelieve, thus God is shown to be perfect.
Quote from the Jason Bible.
'I am the good Slavedriver. The good Slavedriver tries to keep his sheep on their toes. He keeps them under pressure, and always in suspense so as to try to keep them up to the mark. He constantly drives them forward. If they slip up and fail he leaves them to their own devices. It is up to them what they do. He expects nothing short of perfection. Most of them finish up exhausted and depressed. Oh, dear, he used to have a hundred sheep. Now he only has one !!! I wonder why?
'I am the good Slavedriver. The good Slavedriver tries to keep his sheep on their toes. He keeps them under pressure, and always in suspense so as to try to keep them up to the mark. He constantly drives them forward. If they slip up and fail he leaves them to their own devices. It is up to them what they do. He expects nothing short of perfection. Most of them finish up exhausted and depressed. Oh, dear, he used to have a hundred sheep. Now he only has one !!! I wonder why?
B
Jason, listen very clearly. You can sin and never lose what God has given you by grace. If you sin and do not turn from it, God will give you grace to turn and if you do not take advantage of that grace he will chasten you until you humble yourself and turn to Him and from your sin. You can never lose or forfeit what God has imputed to you when you believed and trusted in Jesus Christ and him crucified. Salvation is of the Lord and is based upon the work of the cross PERIOD and we believe unto righteousness to be saved PERIOD. It is a free gift sustained by the word of God and the author of it.
Firstly I would point out that no one has the ability to believe unless God brings home to them the truth and impels them to do so. What man is prevents it. Just look at your own experience. Why did you come to believe? Do you think that God could not do the same with anyone? Of course He could. Men come to believe because it is God's will, and because God convinces them
Secondly your problem is that you have only one eye open. The question is not one of God failing, but of the IMPOSSIBILITY of all being saved. If God desires all men to be saved and yet all are not saved there must be a reason for it. And that reason is not man's freewill for two reasons. 1) that sinful man of his own freewill will NEVER seek God with any good intent. 2). God could overrule man's freewill by using selfish motives. Or He could do it by overwhelming them. He had no problem with making Paul believe. He gave him no choice. As Paul says, 'who has resisted His will?'
Thus the assumption must be that there is something of which we are unaware that prevents God from saving all. He Who knows all things clearly knows that if all were saved it would have drastic consequences. Thus He limits the number of those who are saved. And He knew that it would be so from the beginning.
God knew from the beginning who would be lost. Why did He not then ensure that they were not born?. Then they would not have been lost.
If God leaves our salvation to our own freewill, He is not perfect, He is simply incompetent. For He knows that if He did so we would all be lost. In all that matters I do not let my child have his own way. I make sure he does my will. And God is no different. Those will be saved whom He chose in Christ Jesus before the world began.
God has a desire that all be saved. but it is a general desire that is impossible of accomplishment for reasons we do not know.
You can side with Ricky LOl I will side with God.
Secondly your problem is that you have only one eye open. The question is not one of God failing, but of the IMPOSSIBILITY of all being saved. If God desires all men to be saved and yet all are not saved there must be a reason for it. And that reason is not man's freewill for two reasons. 1) that sinful man of his own freewill will NEVER seek God with any good intent. 2). God could overrule man's freewill by using selfish motives. Or He could do it by overwhelming them. He had no problem with making Paul believe. He gave him no choice. As Paul says, 'who has resisted His will?'
Thus the assumption must be that there is something of which we are unaware that prevents God from saving all. He Who knows all things clearly knows that if all were saved it would have drastic consequences. Thus He limits the number of those who are saved. And He knew that it would be so from the beginning.
God knew from the beginning who would be lost. Why did He not then ensure that they were not born?. Then they would not have been lost.
If God leaves our salvation to our own freewill, He is not perfect, He is simply incompetent. For He knows that if He did so we would all be lost. In all that matters I do not let my child have his own way. I make sure he does my will. And God is no different. Those will be saved whom He chose in Christ Jesus before the world began.
God has a desire that all be saved. but it is a general desire that is impossible of accomplishment for reasons we do not know.
You can side with Ricky LOl I will side with God.
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Not only that, but he has caused them to live in fear and doubt all their lives (something Jesus commanded us NOT to do), never knowing, from minute to minute, if they are sons, or if they are outcasts. It's almost as though they have to consult a chart to see if they happen to belong to God today, or not.... and then they have to make sure they hang their head low enough and look sorrowful and pitifull enough to convince Him to consider saving them again.