Grace alone or grace plus works?

[Studyman]

Romans 11:6-8
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Don't stop there GP. You are missing the point. Paul is speaking about the Jews who created their own commandments and doctrines and rejected Gods.



Therefore they rejected the old testament Biblical fact that "the just shall live by faith". They were still relying on their own "Works" for salvation, and not the Grace of God.

but you stopped before the good part.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?




16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Jesus is Holy, why? Because he created His own path? No, because he walked in the Commandments of his Father. This made Him Holy. He and His flesh (His earthly walk) is Holy.

And if the foundation of His Walk is Holy (Law and Prophets) so are all those who humbled themselves to it. (the branches like Abraham, Caleb, Zachariah, Stephen, Peter etc.)

17 And if some of the branches be broken off,(Jews) and thou, being a wild olive tree,(Gentile) wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;


Same Root Jesus walked in.



18 Boast not against the branches.(those who obeyed) But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee




19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.



20 Well; because of unbelief (disobedience)they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.(obedience) Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches,(because they transgressed God's Commandments by their own traditions) take heed lest he also spare not thee.(For doing the same thing.)


22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[BillG]

I am a simpleton Dan, so please just plain answers if you would be so kind.

What was the behavior that needed to be repented of in the first place? Was it disobedience to God's Law that caused my death and subsequent need for Jesus and HIS Salvation?

I know your asking Dan here, so I hope you don't mind me giving my thoughts as a simpleton add well.
For me the behaviour that Jesus said we need to repent of is the sin of unbelief.

John 16:7-9
7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;

Without Jesus there is no salvation.
It is because of him and through him we are saved.
Nothing more or nothing less.

 

[BillG]

I know your asking Dan here, so I hope you don't mind me giving my thoughts as a simpleton add well.
For me the behaviour that Jesus said we need to repent of is the sin of unbelief.

John 16:7-9
7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;

Without Jesus there is no salvation.
It is because of him and through him we are saved.
Nothing more or nothing less.

Thanks for the rep grandpa

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Studyman

I am a simpleton Dan, so please just plain answers if you would be so kind.

That explains a lot

What was the behavior that needed to be repented of in the first place? Was it disobedience to God's Law that caused my death and subsequent need for Jesus and HIS Salvation?

Yes and once God had dealt with that through His righteousness the law had fulfilled its purpose (rom 1-5).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know your asking Dan here, so I hope you don't mind me giving my thoughts as a simpleton add well.
For me the behaviour that Jesus said we need to repent of is the sin of unbelief.

John 16:7-9
7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;

Without Jesus there is no salvation.
It is because of him and through him we are saved.
Nothing more or nothing less.

The simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[Studyman]

I know your asking Dan here, so I hope you don't mind me giving my thoughts as a simpleton add well.
For me the behaviour that Jesus said we need to repent of is the sin of unbelief.

John 16:7-9
7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;

Without Jesus there is no salvation.
It is because of him and through him we are saved.
Nothing more or nothing less.

I suppose all transgressions of God's Commandments(God's definition of sin) could be placed under the heading "sin of unbelief".

Jesus did say I would know them by their fruits. So if someone knows God's Commandments and rejects them anyway, I guess this would be a sign of unbelief.

I mean, why would someone disobey God/Jesus if they truly "Believe" Him and His Words regarding the wages of sin.

So how would a person repent from the sin of unbelief, and bring works worthy of repentance acceptable to Jesus?

 

[valiant]

Don't stop there GP. You are missing the point. Paul is speaking about the Jews who created their own commandments and doctrines and rejected Gods.

No he is speaking of all who looked to the LAW for their salvation,

Therefore they rejected the old testament Biblical fact that "the just shall live by faith". They were still relying on their own "Works" for salvation, and not the Grace of God.

Yes they clung to Law keeping and rejected God's gracious provision in Christ.

but you stopped before the good part.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

And that is when 'all Israel is saved' at the end of time.

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

The firstfruit is Abraham, the root is spiritual Israel, the remnant.

Jesus is Holy, why? Because he created His own path? No, because he walked in the Commandments of his Father. This made Him Holy. He and His flesh (His earthly walk) is Holy.

Jesus is holy, and was holy before birth, but that verse has nothing to do with Jesus directly.

And if the foundation of His Walk is Holy (Law and Prophets) so are all those who humbled themselves to it. (the branches like Abraham, Caleb, Zachariah, Stephen, Peter etc.)

LOL you have completely missed the point of what Paul is saying.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off,(Jews) and thou, being a wild olive tree,(Gentile) wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

they had become part of spiritual, believing Israel

Same Root Jesus walked in.

Jesus FORMED the new spiritual Israel, His church. But He is not in mind here.

18 Boast not against the branches.(those who obeyed) But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee

The fruitful branches were those who BELIEVED. That was why they obeyed. The Gentiles had to make sure that they also truly believed and obeyed,

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief (disobedience)they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.(obedience) Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches,(because they transgressed God's Commandments by their own traditions) take heed lest he also spare not thee.(For doing the same thing.)

Unbelieving Israel was cast off from Israel, believing Gentiles were welcomed in.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If the Gentiles proved as unbelieving as the rejected Jews they too would be cast off. His goodness was offered to Gentiles. But they had to truly believe and continue in His goodness. Those who did not would be cast off. They would prove not to be true branches.

 

[Studyman]

That explains a lot




Yes and once God had dealt with that through His righteousness the law had fulfilled its purpose (rom 1-5).

Thanks for your spirit filled and thoughtful reply.

So after God dealt with that through His Righteousness, what are the "works Worthy of Repentance" that we are commanded to "bring forth"? Are they enjoined with repentance in the fulfillment of God's purpose?

Or are we now free to create our own righteous works and ignore God's?

 

[Studyman]

=valiant;3360945]

No he is speaking of all who looked to the LAW for their salvation,

No Valiant, The Jews were not rejected because they were trying to obey God.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

You preaching that the Jews were cast off because they obeyed God is a wickedness that have deceived many people. I would hope that you would read God's word and see that they were cast off for rejecting God's Commandments and creating their own.

Yes they clung to Law keeping and rejected God's gracious provision in Christ.

Where in the Bible did Jesus say the mainstream preachers of His time were rejected because they "Clung to God's Laws".

And that is when 'all Israel is saved' at the end of time.

Rom. 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Again, you don't understand who Israel is. Yes, all Israel will be saved. The Gentiles grafted in to the Holy Tree are now Israel, and the Jews cast off for rejecting God's Word are not Israel.

The firstfruit is Abraham, the root is spiritual Israel, the remnant.

1 Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

where do you get this stuff Valiant? Abraham is not the firstfruit. Can you give any Biblical support for this?

Jesus is holy, and was holy before birth, but that verse has nothing to do with Jesus directly.

Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Again, you preach out and out fabrications about God and His Word. Jesus was made perfect by the things he suffered. That is what the Bible teaches. That is why He is the Firstfruit. It's in your Bible.

LOL you have completely missed the point of what Paul is saying.

Well you are welcome to show me with Scriptures that support your preaching, but I'm not going to reject God's Word just because you say so.

they had become part of spiritual, believing Israel

Yes, because, like is required by all flesh, they had to repent, turn to God, and do works worthy of repentance. Just like Paul taught all men.

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Jesus FORMED the new spiritual Israel, His church. But He is not in mind here.

What Biblical support for this preaching that do you have?

The fruitful branches were those who BELIEVED. That was why they obeyed. The Gentiles had to make sure that they also truly believed and obeyed,

Finally, something that agrees with scriptures.

Unbelieving Israel was cast off from Israel, believing Gentiles were welcomed in.

How do we know they didn't believe in God? Because they rejected His Commandments and created their own, and the Bible says over and over. Just ask and I will show them to you. And as long as the Gentiles don't do the same thing, they will remain grafted in.

If the Gentiles proved as unbelieving as the rejected Jews they too would be cast off. His goodness was offered to Gentiles. But they had to truly believe and continue in His goodness. Those who did not would be cast off. They would prove not to be true branches.

So what is His Goodness? Doctrines and Traditions of man? Or the righteous Commandments of God that Jesus was made perfect through obeying?

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Yes and once God had dealt with that through His righteousness the law had fulfilled its purpose (rom 1-5).

Thanks for your spirit filled and thoughtful reply.

So after God dealt with that through His Righteousness, what are the "works Worthy of Repentance" that we are commanded to "bring forth"? Are they enjoined with repentance in the fulfillment of God's purpose?

Or are we now free to create our own righteous works and ignore God's?

We have teaching from Jesus that supersedes the Law. We have 'died to the Law through the body of Christ, that we might be united with another, even with Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God' (Rom 7)

 

[valiant]

No Valiant, The Jews were not rejected because they were trying to obey God.

But they thought that they were by obeying the Law.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

This was spiritual Israel, the believing remnant.

You preaching that the Jews were cast off because they obeyed God is a wickedness that have deceived many people.

You said that, not me. They were not cast off for obeying God, but by living by and hoping to obtain salvation from the Law. Like all men they failed,

I would hope that you would read God's word and see that they were cast off for rejecting God's Commandments and creating their own.

No they were cast off for disobeying the Law, as all men do. You are mixing the Jews with the Pharisees who were only a small part of the Jews.

Where in the Bible did Jesus say the mainstream preachers of His time were rejected because they "Clung to God's Laws".

Paul says it in Romans 2-3.

Rom. 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

yes the true spiritual Israel, the believers,

Again, you don't understand who Israel is.

Paul clearly tells us who Israel is.

Yes, all Israel will be saved. The Gentiles grafted in to the Holy Tree are now Israel, and the Jews cast off for rejecting God's Word are not Israel.

So how come that 'blindness in part has happened to ISRAEL'?

1 Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

The firstfruit of them that slept, the first to rise from the dead. Hardly the same thought.

where do you get this stuff Valiant? Abraham is not the firstfruit. Can you give any Biblical support for this?

There is plenty of Biblical support.

Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

well?

Again, you preach out and out fabrications about God and His Word. Jesus was made perfect by the things he suffered. That is what the Bible teaches. That is why He is the Firstfruit. It's in your Bible.

No He was the firstfruit because He rose from the dead as the first of a multitude. That is whats in my Bible

Well you are welcome to show me with Scriptures that support your preaching, but I'm not going to reject God's Word just because you say so.

lol you twist God's word to suit yourself. Romans 9 had a totally different emphasis,

 

[valiant]

Jesus FORMED the new spiritual Israel, His church. But He is not in mind here.

What Biblical support for this preaching that do you have?

Matthew 16. for church read 'congregation'. Also John 15.1-6. He was founding the new Israel on the Apostles.

Finally, something that agrees with scriptures.

Careful lol

How do we know they didn't believe in God? Because they rejected His Commandments

They did NOT reject His commandments. They simply failed to live by them.

and created their own, and the Bible says over and over. Just ask and I will show them to you.

That was the comparatively few Pharisees (about 6-7000), But Paul is speaking about Israel as a WHOLE. They were nominal believers not real believers.

And as long as the Gentiles don't do the same thing, they will remain grafted in.

Yes the Gentiles are warned to ensure that their faith is real otherwise they will be cut off from wider visible Israel.

So what is His Goodness? Doctrines and Traditions of man? Or the righteous Commandments of God that Jesus was made perfect through obeying?

His goodness extends far beyond the covenant made with visible ISRAEL.

Your statement shows how limited your view of God's goodness is.

 

[Studyman]

We have teaching from Jesus that supersedes the Law. We have 'died to the Law through the body of Christ, that we might be united with another, even with Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God' (Rom 7)

Yes,

I have no doubt that the image you created of the long haired jesus supersedes the Word of God. But the Jesus of the Bible does not.

Matt.5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Some of the prophesy has been fulfilled, but not all. We have the 2nd coming, and the great Throne judgment just to name a few. There are more. So the teaching that ALL is fulfilled is another deception Jesus warned so many times about.

Yes, your jesus rejects God's Laws but the Jesus of the Bible does not.

 

[mailmandan]

I suppose all transgressions of God's Commandments (God's definition of sin) could be placed under the heading "sin of unbelief".

Jesus did say I would know them by their fruits. So if someone knows God's Commandments and rejects them anyway, I guess this would be a sign of unbelief.

It's one thing to know God's Commandments and completely reject them and another thing to have weak moments and not perfectly obey all of God's Commandments, 100% of the time.

I mean, why would someone disobey God/Jesus if they truly "Believe" Him and His Words regarding the wages of sin.

Ask the apostle Peter why, who denied Christ 3 times (Matthew 26:70-75) and later, he was being a hypocrite and was not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel in Galatians 2:11-15. Does that mean Peter did not truly "Believe" in Him or did Peter have some weak moments in his life, just like every other Christian? The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak (Matthew 26:41). Also see Galatians 5:17.

So how would a person repent from the sin of unbelief, and bring works worthy of repentance acceptable to Jesus?

Change your mind and place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation. 1 John 3:23 - This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

 

[Studyman]

=mailmandan;3361288]

It's one thing to know God's Commandments and completely reject them and another thing to have weak moments and not perfectly obey all of God's Commandments, 100% of the time.

Thanks for your reply Dan,

I agree 100%. But what if I'm born into a religion that transgresses the Commandments of God by church tradition? What if a religion sets out to re-define God's Laws so as to justify their traditions? Do I reject what EVERY Word of God says to keep my safe place in society, or do I "Come out her" and be faithful to Jesus, the Word who became flesh?

That is completely different than honoring Jesus with repentance and obedience and slipping during a test of our faith.

Ask the apostle Peter why, who denied Christ 3 times (Matthew 26:70-75) and later, he was being a hypocrite and was not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel in Galatians 2:11-15. Does that mean Peter did not truly "Believe" in Him or did Peter have some weak moments in his life, just like every other Christian? The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak (Matthew 26:41). Also see Galatians 5:17.

We are talking about two completely different things. I'm talking about looking at God's Word and rejecting it. You are talking about slipping and falling.

Change your mind and place your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation. 1 John 3:23 - This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

But Jesus said:

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

So to believe and rely on Him for salvation means we must listen and do what He says. He is expressly against "Transgressing the Commandments of God by man made doctrines and traditions. He said "Many" would come in His name to deceive. When asked about how to get to heaven He said "Keep the Commandments". Is there really anybody that doesn't truly know He was speaking about His fathers Commandments?

So there are MANY who preach we don't need to do these things. That we are free from God's Commandments. We can create images of God in the likeness of whatever we want. We can create our own "Feasts unto the Lord", we can reject the Sabbath He created, before becoming a man, that He created for man, and we can replace it with whatever we like.

These things are not slipping and falling Dan. They were prophesied by God for centuries. A great religion that rejects God's Word all in the name of Jesus.

This is what I am speaking to.

 

[mailmandan]

=mailmandan;3361288]

Thanks for your reply Dan,

I agree 100%. But what if I'm born into a religion that transgresses the Commandments of God by church tradition? What if a religion sets out to re-define God's Laws so as to justify their traditions? Do I reject what EVERY Word of God says to keep my safe place in society, or do I "Come out her" and be faithful to Jesus, the Word who became flesh?

Are you a member of the SDA church? That sounds like their logic. "Come out of the Roman Catholic church and keep the Sabbath day on Saturday?" Is that your implication? They turn keeping the Sabbath day into a legalistic prescription for Christians under the New Covenant and basically turn the Sabbath day into an idol.

Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast

That is completely different than honoring Jesus with repentance and obedience and slipping during a test of our faith.

We are talking about two completely different things. I'm talking about looking at God's Word and rejecting it. You are talking about slipping and falling.

Is believing in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and loving one another, as He commanded us rejecting God's Word?

But Jesus said:

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

You need to be careful not to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture. That is how people arrive at salvation by works.

So to believe and rely on Him for salvation means we must listen and do what He says.

To believe and rely on Him for salvation means we must trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Doing what He says "after we have been saved through faith" is works and we are not saved by works.

He is expressly against "Transgressing the Commandments of God by man made doctrines and traditions.

In regards to transgressing the Commandments of God by man made doctrines/traditions, in Matthew 15, we read:

Matthew 15:1 - Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." 3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"-- 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

So what Commandments of God are you accusing believers of transgressing?

*Please explain to me what you believe it means to "KEEP" His Commandments.*

It sounds to me like you define "BELIEVES IN HIM" as obey Him through perfect obedience to His Commandments. Are you trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation or are you trusting in your best efforts to obey His Commandments as the supplemental means of your salvation?

He said "Many" would come in His name to deceive.

Like Ellen White and the SDA church for example.

When asked about how to get to heaven He said "Keep the Commandments". Is there really anybody that doesn't truly know He was speaking about His fathers Commandments?

I have often heard works salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) quote Matthew 19:17 in an effort to prove that salvation is based on the merits of their best efforts to "Keep the Commandments," yet Jesus was showing the rich young man how short he falls of even keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young man confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing/trusting in Jesus for salvation.

The rich young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said.

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

So there are MANY who preach we don't need to do these things. That we are free from God's Commandments. We can create images of God in the likeness of whatever we want. We can create our own "Feasts unto the Lord", we can reject the Sabbath He created, before becoming a man, that He created for man, and we can replace it with whatever we like.

So you wish to remain under the law? It sounds to me like you are trusting in your best efforts/performance in obeying the 10 Commandments from the OT as the means of your salvation. *There is something you need to know - "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone...the ministry that condemns" (2 Corinthians 3:6-9).

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations (Exodus 16:23; 31:12-18; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21; 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13) was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on the Church/Christians under the New Covenant.

*Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day — 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

All of the moral precepts of 9 the 10 Commandments from the OT are repeated under the New Covenant, yet not the command to keep the Sabbath.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

These things are not slipping and falling Dan. They were prophesied by God for centuries. A great religion that rejects God's Word all in the name of Jesus.

This is what I am speaking to.

Sadly, there are many false religions and cults that reject God's Word and pervert the Gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16), all in the name of Jesus.

 

[JaumeJ]

Judging by your posts MM, perhaps the best reply for you is found here.

Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

 

[garee]

I suppose all transgressions of God's Commandments(God's definition of sin) could be placed under the heading "sin of unbelief".

Jesus did say I would know them by their fruits. So if someone knows God's Commandments and rejects them anyway, I guess this would be a sign of unbelief.

I mean, why would someone disobey God/Jesus if they truly "Believe" Him and His Words regarding the wages of sin.

So how would a person repent from the sin of unbelief, and bring works worthy of repentance acceptable to Jesus?

Repentance is a work of God turning us toward him who has no form so that then after he turns us we can repent .The works of repentance is that we can belief previously falling from unbelief.

Simply put it is the work of God in us not seen working to both will and do His good pleasure that we can and do believe him.

He must do the first works as our first experience of His love working in us.

 

[JaumeJ]

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In all honesty there are times when I believe this war is already in progress.

 

[mailmandan]

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In all honesty there are times when I believe this war is already in progress.

Explain to us what you believe it means to "KEEP" the commandments of God. Only genuine believers keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.