Grace through faith AND the law dont mix?

ralph · May 22, 2016

Just because you have been forgiven of your sins does not mean you are eternally saved.the wrath of god comes on the sons of disobedience.God does not approve of sinning.and if a person who is born again and still can't stop all base sins is a baby.to partake of divine nature one need to stop all conscience sin.Jesus is coming for the first fruits,the others will left behind in the rapture and those that died in Christ will also take.all of you quote many scriptures according to the light one has.when a person stops sinning and is cleansing one self in the light and fellowship one has with God.sin is darkness and obedience is light for God dwells in the light.this is the whole thing about the word became flesh though Jesus had sin in flesh that he got from mary,yet sin and the enemy could not make him sin against God.jesus had a flesh all his earthly life.condemed all sin the flesh and the father said this ny beloved son.so if one stops sinning according to the light one has.God will let you receive more opportunties to grow even more.let us press on to perfection if God permits.john and james asked Jesus can we sit in the right and left of you? Jesus said it is not for me to give,but of my father will give it to whom it is prepared for.those seats are for those who gets the most of the life of Jesus here on this earthly lifetime.that is the bride of Christ.so if your understanding and doctrines do not produce the life if Jesus who did no sin than your undestanding is wrong.Jesus is our forerunner and example.if your not getting the results that Jesus got who are you following ? This the new testament the new and living way which Jesus openned up for us through his flesh.in the old testament they could not be obedient and keep the law.but now we keep and fulfill the law.in the old testament the only part of the law they understood was the letter of the law but the spiritual part they could not understand was the spititual part and they had not the strenght of the Spirit to accomplish this.but Christ came and fulfillid the letter of the law and the spiritual part also thou shall not covet and he opened a new and living way.new because it never was done before and living because it is now liveable for those who trully love The lord and his coming.

Ephesians 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,[/QUOTE]

BibleGuy · May 22, 2016

Hello Ralph,

Lots of nice points there....

One thing though...you wrote: "...in the old testament they could not be obedient and keep the law..."

So, I would say that Dt. 30:11 pretty clearly states that they COULD be obedient to the law.

Again, Dt. 28:1-14 shows that obedience to the law (individually and corporately) was a real possibility.

And, Zacharias and Elizabeth also righteously walked in obedience to all the commands of the law (Lk. 1:5-6), again confirming that the law COULD be obeyed.

blessings...
BibleGuy

JaumeJ · May 22, 2016

I believe when we understand Jesus, Yeshua, and how He has explained the law, no man can be obedient and keep the law.

Examine His teachings on an eye for an eye, and see how He defended the woman caught in adultery who by the law should have been stoned to death....incidentally, what ever happened to the man who committed adultery with her? Jus being curious.

Also let us not forget the laws of the Temple, the Levitical laws for the priesthood, dietary laws, geographically dependent laws and so many more..............

JaumeJ · May 22, 2016

Additional note..........

It is better to suffer for doing what is right, be it the will of God, than for doing what is wrong..

RickyZ · May 22, 2016

Wall said:

Thats what i keep hearing but where are the scriptures that say this. I cant find em. I have found plenty of scriptures that say Christians are to keep Gods law AND the faith in Jesus. We can never be saved simply by keeping the law as we all have fallen short. We are saved by the grace of God alone. Big question is...is there something we must do in order to recieve this free gift of grace?

Yes. We have to accept it.

And I thank God that's all we have to do.

jasonj · May 22, 2016

some good points here. I would say a big part of sin being removed is to not hide our sin, to step into the light of the Gospel wich will reveal the things we need to let go of. someone said years ago the gospel is like looking into a mirror. in it we see the perfect character of Jesus ( our example) and as we see Him, our own character is revealed Our (sinful nature) so we see the things we are to repent of by simply acknowledging that He is right. so many look at the gospel as condemnation, when we learn it, it is supposed to convict us of our sin, leading to repentance as we are led along in Grace. as we begin to empty our hearts of sin, we fill it with the righteousness of Jesus character by accepting that He is saying "put these teachings into practice"and obeying what He is saying in the gospel to each who accepts that it is true.

Grace removes our sin, through our faith in Jesus. faith is when we accept what He is saying is Gods Word, and if we accept it is Gods word we will do it, as He is saying to do it. if we slip up, there is forgiveness taught in His teachings. we forgive as we are commanded, and we are forgiven as He promises. obedience to Jesus teachings fulfills the law without ever having to learn the law. remembering that the "law of moses" has over 400 individual laws. all of the righteous requirements are met through obedience to Jesus Gospel. and His Gospel provides the Grace to do this through the law of forgiveness found in His teachings. The law of moses, is the law of Judaism, Christs Gospel, is the perfect Law of Gods Kingdom that removes sin as we obey its precepts and His commands. ( washing our robes in Hos blood) Grace teaches us righteousness, righteousness is the character of Jesus, and our goal is to be like Him.

jasonj · May 22, 2016

BibleGuy said:

The Law was good, man was not. the law lead to self righteousness. in the law my actions were all that mattered, my heart could hate, lust, I could be ruled by greed ect.....the law did nothing to remove sin from me, it only taught me to obey, there was no provision to change my heart. obedience to the law was a burden. Christ perfected this, by the cleansing or "circumcision of the heart" that comes through faith unto obedience of His gospel. if we set our hearts to obey Jesus, we need not even know the mosaic law, Levitical law or any other. because Jesus teachings are perfect. if we obey His teaching, we are cleansed at the source of the problem, our heart.

"make a tree good, and its fruit will be good" it eliminates outward righteousness which masks the sin in us, and makes righteousness who we are from the heart, so that no law is necessary, in the gospel our character is perfected. and our actions come from our heart naturally. the law of moses was given to govern sinful man, set limits and punishments. The Gospel was given to re-create sinful man, into children of God in truth, from the heart.

eternally-gratefull · May 22, 2016

BibleGuy said:

Are you perfect? According to the law?

Galatians shows us, that whoever does not confirm and obey every letter of the law (sinless perfection) That they have imposed a curs upon themselves.

James said if we break even the LEAST of all the law, we have been found guilty of the whole law. (the same curse found in Galatians)

of course that curse is death, Paul again comes to the forefront when he said for the wage of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. And in romans 3, tells us that everyone of us have sinned, and fall short of that standard imposed by God.

John tells us if we say we have not sinned, we deceive our self and there is no truth in us.

So you see, No man can earn salvation by being good enough, or obeying the law (or any other religious list of rules and regulation) because we all fail to live up to Gods standard. If we stood in front of Christ today, And he looked at our lives and set it side by side to the law. We would be condemned, and rightly so. Because only Christ fulfilled the law.
hstates even the law is not good enough, As he said, The law says you shall not commit adultery, But he told us, if we even look at a lady we are in sin. SO the law cannot even show us how to be righteous. It can only give us at most a sense of false security that we are righteous people (see Pharisees and most religious type religious law enforcers, or the don't drink, smoke cuss crowd)

Jesus told us how to be righteous, Not by following the law. But by living out two commands, The law of love Love God, and your neighbor (anyone you come in contact with, even if they are your enemy) you do this, and you will not sin. The problem is we can not do this 24/7, and anytime we take our eyes of this law (we love because God loves us) and the power god gives us, We are in sin. And we do not need any law to tell us we have sinned, In fact, if we focus on the law, We will probably not even know the fact, we have sinned.

Paul said set our minds on the things of the spirit, and we will not do the lusts of the flesh (self) Jesus is our example. He did not walk around thinking of the law 24/7 so he could obey it, He walked around 24/7 thinking who can he serve, who needs his help. And he sacrificed his comfort every day serving his God.

Scriptureplz · May 22, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

Are you perfect? According to the law?

Galatians shows us, that whoever does not confirm and obey every letter of the law (sinless perfection) That they have imposed a curs upon themselves.

James said if we break even the LEAST of all the law, we have been found guilty of the whole law. (the same curse found in Galatians)

of course that curse is death, Paul again comes to the forefront when he said for the wage of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. And in romans 3, tells us that everyone of us have sinned, and fall short of that standard imposed by God.

John tells us if we say we have not sinned, we deceive our self and there is no truth in us.

So you see, No man can earn salvation by being good enough, or obeying the law (or any other religious list of rules and regulation) because we all fail to live up to Gods standard. If we stood in front of Christ today, And he looked at our lives and set it side by side to the law. We would be condemned, and rightly so. Because only Christ fulfilled the law.
hstates even the law is not good enough, As he said, The law says you shall not commit adultery, But he told us, if we even look at a lady we are in sin. SO the law cannot even show us how to be righteous. It can only give us at most a sense of false security that we are righteous people (see Pharisees and most religious type religious law enforcers, or the don't drink, smoke cuss crowd)

Jesus told us how to be righteous, Not by following the law. But by living out two commands, The law of love Love God, and your neighbor (anyone you come in contact with, even if they are your enemy) you do this, and you will not sin. The problem is we can not do this 24/7, and anytime we take our eyes of this law (we love because God loves us) and the power god gives us, We are in sin. And we do not need any law to tell us we have sinned, In fact, if we focus on the law, We will probably not even know the fact, we have sinned.

Paul said set our minds on the things of the spirit, and we will not do the lusts of the flesh (self) Jesus is our example. He did not walk around thinking of the law 24/7 so he could obey it, He walked around 24/7 thinking who can he serve, who needs his help. And he sacrificed his comfort every day serving his God.

Amen! By faith in the gospel of Christ these things apply according to Gods Word....

2 Corinthians 5:21[SUP] - [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 8:2[SUP] - [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6[SUP] - [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;[SUP] 6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

eternally-gratefull · May 22, 2016

Scriptureplz said:

Amen, and one I was reminded of in church this morning.

Phil 3: [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

PeterJens · May 22, 2016

The law is about relationship. Relationship with God, relationship with family, neighbours, enemies.

Some talk about the law as if it is about the individual and their actions without reference to emotional response or motivations.

Jesus was saying you cannot follow God, or be "saved" until you have relised what you are inside and what God is and how the two connect. So the idea of being "righteous" without acceptance and communion, is like saying people can live without water.

We are born without communion but in relationship with our families and society. Eternity hangs on can we connect with God. As the law is a reflection of Gods nature to commune with Him is to follow the law, but not because you want "eternity" like something you buy in a shop, it is a understanding that transcends everything.

It appears you never arrive but you do walk, because like a marriage you know it works, and is alive, but to analyse it too much it disappears.

chips1024 · May 22, 2016

Here is my take on this:

1: All have sinned and fallen short (Rom 3:23)
2: Due to sin, we will die - wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23)
3: How do I know what is sin? The law tells me/shows me what sin is (Rom 7:7 and 3:20)
4: We need the Grace of God to cover our sin. No matter how much sin we have, the Grace of God is always more than enough to cover our sin (Rom 5:20)

In this I see that the Law and Grace work side by side.
We do something wrong -> We know it is wrong because the law tells us what is wrong (sin) -> we now have sin and must die -> due to us having sin, we need Grace

If we take away the Law, that means that we no longer have sin (because we will have no way to define sin), which means we no longer need Grace. No law = No sin = No need for Grace.

So the 2 work side by side for me. The Law showing me where I need Grace and Grace covering me where I sin and fall short.

abcdef · May 22, 2016

John 13:34, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Fulfill this commandment.

This is based on a true story, I only observed it and thought about it.
====================================================
A man walking though the airport parking lot dropped his wallet out of his coat.

Several people saw it, What were they thinking? (generally),

1. First person, I'm going to make some money and throw the wallet away to hide my theft.

2. I'm going to steal the money and return the wallet empty of cash.

3. Wait a minuet, Thou shall not steal, I had better return the wallet with the money.

4. Without thinking about it, the wallet will be returned, with the money.

Each person reacts with his heart and mind.

Each person does what they do because,

That is the "kind" of person that they are, in their spirit, their soul.

Which example shows the most love?

Which example shows what a person who has the gift of the Holy Spirit would do? (mind of Christ, 1 Cor 2:16)

Example 4 is the one we WANT to be,

We don't think about it, It's just the kind of person that we have BECOME. (the victory, over the mind set on the flesh, by the gift of the Holy Spirit).

If we are the person in example 3, we are still using the law for a "crutch", a "school master".

For awhile, this is to be expected, we all must learn and grow, train our minds and our hearts.

But when we reach maturity, we must throw away our crutches and be the person in example 4.

Full of the Spirit of love, Because that is the kind of person that we are, that we have become, Christ like, living in His image.

Grandpa · May 22, 2016

The Law demands obedience. Its dads belt. Obey or whipping.

We receive Gods Provision in the Lord Jesus Christ. Everything that is required by the law is given by God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:7-9
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Budman · May 22, 2016

Obedience to the Law never saved anyone. It can't save anyone, nor could it ever. Neither a mixture of Law and Grace.

The reason? Apart from Christ, no human being did, can, or ever could keep the Law. Not even the Jews to whom it was given.

The Law was nailed to the cross.

Period.

Grace777x70 · May 22, 2016

Budman · May 22, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Thank-you, Jesus! AMEN!

BibleGuy · May 22, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

YIKES! This image is a pretty clear example of taking Scripture out of context, and neglecting disconfirming Scriptural considerations.

Please engage the following:

1. Jesus COMMANDED obedience to the law by applying Dt. 6 to us in Mt. 22:37!

2. Jesus said our obedience to the law determines our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

3. Jesus said the law is NOT abolished (Mt. 5:17).

4. Jesus said the law is in force until AFTER heaven and earth pass away (Mt. 5:18).

5. Jesus said our righteous obedience to the law must EXCEED that of the Pharisees (Mt. 5:20).

6. Jesus said we LIVE by the Torah (Mt. 4:4, citing Dt. 8:3, referencing Torah).

7. Jesus said that religious people opposed to Torah will be CAST AWAY (Mt. 7:21-23) if not even worse (Mt. 13:41-42).

8. Jesus said that we should pray for God's will to be done (Mt. 6:10)...and God's will is that he be obeyed! (not opposed!)

9. Jesus said we should OBEY Mosaic judgments (Mt. 23:2-3).

10. Jesus said that both the greater AND lesser elements of Torah should be obeyed (Mt. 23:23).

11. Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHERS (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His ministry.

12. Jesus obeyed Torah, so we should too (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn. 2:6).

13. Jesus comes to RESTORE the covenant with Levi (Mal. 2-Mal. 3).

14. Jesus said the prophets are still in force (Mt. 5:17), and the prophets require Torah-obedience.

15. Jesus repeatedly quoted the Psalms as Scripture, and the Psalms require Torah-obedience.

16. So let's not quote Col. 2:14 out of context, disregarding this huge bulk of Jesus' teachings.
Remember, Col. 2:14 says the certificate of debt was canceled, not the Torah itself.

17. AND, Col. 2:14 was written by Paul who took a vow to PROVE he obeyed the law (Ac. 21:23-24), and we should imitate that Pauline Torah-obedience (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

Is anyone here willing to engage these objections I've raised?

blessings to you all in your search for truth...
BibleGuy

BibleGuy · May 22, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

Hello eternally-gratefull,

Thank you for writing.

Of course I (as everyone) have sinned. But that's not an excuse to pretend that the law is not applicable to us.

And, the curse in Gal. 3:10 applies to those unwise Galatians who seek (without faith) justification by the law (Gal. 5:4).

The curse does NOT apply to people who simply seek to grow in faithful obedience to the law as Scripture requires.

For example, look at Zacharias and Elizabeth...they were clearly NOT cursed! (Lk. 1:5-6).

Look at Abraham...he was righteous by faith....AND he obeyed LAW (Ge. 26:5).

Look at Moses...he was well aware of God's grace (Ex. 33:13), yet sought to know God and God's WAYS. Where did God's ways come to be found? The written Torah! (1 Ki. 2:3).

Look at David...hero of faith (Heb. 11:32)...but David ALSO obeyed Torah very well (with, of course, a few notable exceptions). Was David cursed by law? Of course not. He obeyed Torah FAITHFULLY, as should we, as we model that faithful obedience.

Yes, we do not EARN salvation by being good enough...I'm glad we agree.

Is this an excuse to ignore God's law? Surely not! Jesus taught and modeled law-obedience!

Yes Christ fulfilled the law...but he did NOT abolish it! It is still in force, just as He taught.

You wrote: "SO the law cannot even show us how to be righteous."

My response: NO! The law exemplifies righteousness (Dt. 6:25), and in fact, Jesus COMMANDED that we exemplify this righteousness when he applied this passage to us in Mt. 22:37.

You wrote: "Jesus told us how to be righteous, Not by following the law. But by living out two commands, The law of love Love God, and your neighbor..."

My response: You just contradicted yourself...my friend. The command to love God (Mt. 22:37) comes STRAIGHT from Dt. 6 where we are shown that this love is expressed through obedience to the law (Dt. 6:25).

So is this law abolished? NO! Jesus said it is the greatest commandment!

Yikes! I hope you do not stand in opposition to this greatest commandment!

Yes, Paul said not to pursue the mind of the flesh (which can not obey God's law). THEREFORE, we should walk according to the Spirit (which, by contrast, DOES obey God's law!) (Rom. 8:6-7).

That's why Paul tells us to KEEP God's commands (not ignore them or pretend they are "nailed to the cross"), 1 Cor. 7:19.

Where are God's commands contained? The written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

ok...

blessings to you....

BibleGuy

RickyZ · May 22, 2016

BibleGuy said:

YIKES! This image is a pretty clear example of taking Scripture out of context, and neglecting disconfirming Scriptural considerations.

Please engage the following:

1. Jesus COMMANDED obedience to the law by applying Dt. 6 to us in Mt. 22:37!

2. Jesus said our obedience to the law determines our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

3. Jesus said the law is NOT abolished (Mt. 5:17).

4. Jesus said the law is in force until AFTER heaven and earth pass away (Mt. 5:18).

5. Jesus said our righteous obedience to the law must EXCEED that of the Pharisees (Mt. 5:20).

6. Jesus said we LIVE by the Torah (Mt. 4:4, citing Dt. 8:3, referencing Torah).

7. Jesus said that religious people opposed to Torah will be CAST AWAY (Mt. 7:21-23) if not even worse (Mt. 13:41-42).

8. Jesus said that we should pray for God's will to be done (Mt. 6:10)...and God's will is that he be obeyed! (not opposed!)

9. Jesus said we should OBEY Mosaic judgments (Mt. 23:2-3).

10. Jesus said that both the greater AND lesser elements of Torah should be obeyed (Mt. 23:23).

11. Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHERS (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His ministry.

12. Jesus obeyed Torah, so we should too (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn. 2:6).

13. Jesus comes to RESTORE the covenant with Levi (Mal. 2-Mal. 3).

14. Jesus said the prophets are still in force (Mt. 5:17), and the prophets require Torah-obedience.

15. Jesus repeatedly quoted the Psalms as Scripture, and the Psalms require Torah-obedience.

16. So let's not quote Col. 2:14 out of context, disregarding this huge bulk of Jesus' teachings.
Remember, Col. 2:14 says the certificate of debt was canceled, not the Torah itself.

17. AND, Col. 2:14 was written by Paul who took a vow to PROVE he obeyed the law (Ac. 21:23-24), and we should imitate that Pauline Torah-obedience (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

Is anyone here willing to engage these objections I've raised?

blessings to you all in your search for truth...
BibleGuy

The way I understand it, Jesus didn't erase the law, He paid our fines for violating them

Grace through faith AND the law dont mix?

ralph

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

jasonj

Guest

jasonj

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Scriptureplz

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Banned

chips1024

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member