GREASY GRACE?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
121
0
#61
Grace is a license to be righteous. People don't need a license to sin. They've been doing it for thousands of years without one.
A. God forgave you, now your sin is already forgiven, you cant "sin" enough to displease God, all the work is finished just rest?

B. Jesus suffered and died to forgive you, to free you from sins dominion, and He taught mankind How to Live in order to Please God, learn from Jesus and apply His teachings to Life because He suffered and died for you?
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
#62
That's legit.

I would go a little further:

A. You have access to steak. It's waiting for you, freshly cooked, beautifully prepared with extraordinary fine trimmings and a delicious dessert with a chilled spoon to feast off of.

B. Why would you go eat garbage when you have a beautiful dinner at home? Sin is garbage. Death, destruction, it might taste good for a minute, but later you feel its ill effects.

The problem is people either don't know God is incredible in every way or don't know how to access Him for their needs.

Because they don't they think they have to do it through "lust" which is an illegal desire. They do it through their own way (sin) because they don't know how or trust God's way.

Once you understand the GOODNESS and KINDNESS of God repentance becomes a logical and experiential conclusion.

We know our minds are renewed to God's goodness when we are sad for people who sin not jealous of them.

A. God forgave you, now your sin is already forgiven, you cant "sin" enough to displease God, all the work is finished just rest?

B. Jesus suffered and died to forgive you, to free you from sins dominion, and He taught mankind How to Live in order to Please God, learn from Jesus and apply His teachings to Life because He suffered and died for you?
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
33
#63
I agree....Jesus without a doubt exercised this love and grace toward the simple deceived, however, the one's doing the leading astray he raked over the coals...blind leaders of the blind and vipers, snakes......

over all I agree though bro....
Absolutely, there are some so adamant to work for their salvation. Them we should give the law and then ask them, "How are you doing?" It will be a mirror that exposes their flaws and hopefully, bring them to an end of themselves and to Christ, their Savior.

How sad is it that the medicine of obedience they offer only leads to malnutrition of a soul starved of liberty? Its under grace that sin doesn't have dominion, not law. God wants children, obedient, and willing but not slaves whom He works or else. Such a belief in God the Father is a grievance because of all that Jesus died and resurrected for is being put as a carrot before a mule. They are seeking and working for something that is unattainable but is given freely. They are working for what God is already freely giving.
 
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
121
0
#64
That's legit.

I would go a little further:

A. You have access to steak. It's waiting for you, freshly cooked, beautifully prepared with extraordinary fine trimmings and a delicious dessert with a chilled spoon to feast off of.

B. Why would you go eat garbage when you have a beautiful dinner at home?

The problem is people either don't know God is incredible in every way or don't know how to access Him for their needs.

Because they don't they think they have to do it through "lust" which is an illegal desire. They do it through their own way (sin) because they don't know how or trust God's way.

Once you understand the GOODNESS and KINDNESS of God repentance becomes a logical and experiential conclusion.

i can see good value in that, I would suggest that when we preach "Grace" the word of righteousness must be included along with the warnings of Judgement because to teach grace other than How Jesus gave it, is void of truth. grace needs also the knowledge of repentance, righteousness, obedience, Gods will of His people doing the things of Gods children taught by Jesus His only Son. Grace gives us the ability to overcome. always grace and truth together are Gods design in Christ.

Niether do i condemn you, Now go and sin no more"

forgive others because I have forgiven you"

Bless those who curse you"

Love your enemies"

Judge not and you will not be judged"

Be doers of the word, not hearers only"

things like these are not opposed to Grace at all. Jesus teaches Grace to His followers, both Grace we receive and Grace we are commanded to offer others. but certain " grace alone" doctrines are absolutely opposed to the teachings of Grace, even ommiting them. my point is were saved By the Grace that came with Jesus along with truth that teaches us righteousness. and Grace needs to be in accordance with where it came from, seasoned with every aspect ofthe gospel Just as paul preached far more than grace alone.

God is great, yet He has also made promises of Judgement against wickedness to the whole world and He is faithful and will execute His Judgement as He promised. God will destroy Life for the sake of holiness He has shown this in many ways, many times and it is still the same, upon His return many will not be saved because they refused to believe that His words are immutable. Some need fear in order to ever truly repent, that was certainly me. and its always been Gods structure from new to old. sorry i rambled
 
G

Galatea

Guest
#65
This is part of a sermon by Dr. J. Vernon McGee about grace, this is to people who are saved, not unbelievers:

"Two words here are important: teaching and live. The grace of God teaches us, and the grace of God teaches us how to live. In this verse God is not speaking to all men. He is speaking only to those who have come through the first time zone. He is speaking to those who have been saved by His grace. Now as we come into the present where we are today, God says, 'I have something more for you. The grace of God will not only save you, the grace of God will teach you--teach you how to live.' And it is the only thing that will. If you have been saved by the grace of God through the merit of Christ, then God has some demands to make upon you. But remember, He is not talking to the world now. Will you hear me carefully? I want to be kind but I want to be very firm. God is not trying to reform the world; He is redeeming men who will accept Christ. God has no good advice to offer unsaved men; the gospel is not an appeal to Christ-rejecting men to do better. I asked a man who came to me if he wanted to accept Christ. He said, 'Well, I'll talk to you later about that. You know, I'm going to try to do better.' I think I shocked him by saying, 'You are a liar. You are not going to try to do better because if you are honest you know you have tried before, haven't you?' 'Yes' he admitted.
'How did you come out?'
'Well, I didn't do it.'
'Neither will you do it this time. And I have news for you--God is not asking you to do better!' No, He is not. God has not asked the unsaved man to reform. I want to say this: If you have rejected Jesus Christ, if you have never accepted Him as your Savior, and you are trying to work this thing out yourself, you should try to get all you can out of life. The government at this moment is attempting a health education program and is asking you to give up cigarettes. But God is not asking this of you. No, He is not. Eat, drink, smoke cigarettes, for tomorrow you'll die of lung cancer, and they will put you in a flip-top box. Just to reform will not save you, so go ahead, get all you can out of this life, because you are lost. However, God is calling those who are His own, whom He has redeemed by the blood of Christ, to live for Him. He is teaching them to live. The word teach means to train a child, to educate. It is a process. The reason He saved you and left you in this life is that He might train you, that He might develop you.
There are two specifics concerning the teaching of grace that I want to mention.
The first specific is that the standards of grace are immeasurably higher than the standards of the law in the Old Testament. Someone asks, 'How could David get by with sin?' My friend, if you read the record right, you will find that he did not get by with it. And if you have been saved by the grace of God, you won't get by with sin. You have been called to a higher plane than were the men of the Old Testament. The Mosaic Law said, 'Love thy neighbor as thyself.' Now listen to the law of Jesus:
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34)
He has called you to a much higher plane. Love your neighbor, not as yourself, but as Christ loves him! He repeats this standard:
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (John 15:12)
Paul was confronted by this new standard. Paul was a Pharisee, proud as a peacock. He kept the Mosaic Law, and he said that he could stand blameless before God. But he was filled with pride--pride of place, pride of race, pride of face, pride of grace. That is the quartet that moves in upon all of us. Pride of place--he said, 'I am a man of Tarsus, a citizen of no mean city.'
Pride of race--'I am a Hebrew of the Hebrews.' Pride of face--'I am a Pharisee,' a religious ruler, probably the most brilliant man of his day. Pride of grace--a cultured gentleman, a Roman citizen, and educated in all of the Greek philosophies. With all of this, he was lost. And when he came to Jesus Christ he found that there was a new standard altogether. He mentions it:
In lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves. (Philippians 2:3)
These commandments are on a higher plane than was ever presented under the law. It is so high that you may say, 'that is a superhuman standard, and I cannot measure up to it.' You are right. It is superhuman. God knows you cannot live up to it, and that brings me to this second specific of teaching us to live today.
Not only is the standard superhuman, but He has given supernatural enablement to live for Him. Listen to His provision:
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1 Corinthians 2:12)
And to those who were carnal believers:
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Corinthians 6:19, 20)
Also he points out this to the Galatian Christians:
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2, 3)
And through the beloved apostle John He writes:
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. (1 John 3:24)
God, you see, has provided a supernatural enablement so that His child is not left to his own devices. God has given to him the Holy Spirit whereby he can live for God. He not only has delivered us from the penalty of sin, but He has delivered us from the power of sin. No wonder John Newton could say, 'I am what I am by the grace of God.' God by His grace provides the power to live for Him in the here and now."
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
#66
His commands are to us to grow up in Christ. I agree they don't oppose grace, they are the effect of grace.

i can see good value in that, I would suggest that when we preach "Grace" the word of righteousness must be included along with the warnings of Judgement because to teach grace other than How Jesus gave it, is void of truth. grace needs also the knowledge of repentance, righteousness, obedience, Gods will of His people doing the things of Gods children taught by Jesus His only Son. Grace gives us the ability to overcome. always grace and truth together are Gods design in Christ.

Niether do i condemn you, Now go and sin no more"

forgive others because I have forgiven you"

Bless those who curse you"

Love your enemies"

Judge not and you will not be judged"

Be doers of the word, not hearers only"

things like these are not opposed to Grace at all. Jesus teaches Grace to His followers, both Grace we receive and Grace we are commanded to offer others. but certain " grace alone" doctrines are absolutely opposed to the teachings of Grace, even ommiting them. my point is were saved By the Grace that came with Jesus along with truth that teaches us righteousness. and Grace needs to be in accordance with where it came from, seasoned with every aspect ofthe gospel Just as paul preached far more than grace alone.

God is great, yet He has also made promises of Judgement against wickedness to the whole world and He is faithful and will execute His Judgement as He promised. God will destroy Life for the sake of holiness He has shown this in many ways, many times and it is still the same, upon His return many will not be saved because they refused to believe that His words are immutable. Some need fear in order to ever truly repent, that was certainly me. and its always been Gods structure from new to old. sorry i rambled
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#67
Neither are a license to sin. That is your, and many others, false assumption. Your issue with both is fabricated.
Really? Check this out.....

https://escapetoreality.org/2011/07/04/what-happens-to-christians-who-commit-suicide/

If greasy gracers believe that christians that commit suicide still go to heaven, WHAT ELSE CAN THEY DO? I'll tell you.....
They can backslide & still go to heaven.

https://escapetoreality.org/2013/04/10/what-happens-to-christians-who-stray/
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#68
If you do a study on Jude 1:4 you will see that the word for "turn" is really "to replace, in place of, transpose".

It is NOT that people are saying that it's ok to sin now because of grace - that's the common mis-interpretation of Jude 1:4.

It is actually not living by grace and thus are in reality living a lifestyle of lasciviousness. - which means "without restraint". They are replacing the grace of God in their lives for living without restraint whether it be in lifestyles or in doing their own works of self-righteousness/holiness.

The ones denying the Lord Jesus Christ are those that deny the grace of God in their lives and exchange His grace for their own ways of living - which includes self-righteous salvationists mindsets. This not only includes those living in homosexual lifestyles - it includes the religious people going to church every sunday that are rejecting the grace of God for their own works.

Yes - this includes those that have malice and slander others in the body of Christ - whether they be pastors, been Christians for 60 years, go to church every time the doors are open, can read in Greek and Hebrew, have memorized 1/2 the NT, pray in tongues for 6 hours every day...etc. ( all good things within themselves but not necessarily barometers of living by grace )


The word for "turn" in Jude 1:4 means to "replace" or "in place of" or " to transpose"...people are replacing the grace of God for something else.

It does not mean that people are "turning" grace into lewdness as the KJV seems to look like it is saying.

It has nothing to do with so-called greasy-grace/OSAS believers using grace as a license to sin which is constantly being accused of. Paul was slanderously accused of the very same thing when he taught grace.

If we are never accused of saying that it is ok to sin - we have never really preached the gospel that Paul preached yet.

Here are some scriptures where the exact same Greek word is used to see how it is used. You can readily see that the word means to transpose or to exchange from one place to another.

Acts 7:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]
"From there they were removed to Shechem and laid in the tomb which Abraham had purchased for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.

Galatians 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Hebrews 11:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Here is what the Greek word means:

"To transpose, put in another place and hence to transport, transfer"

Complete Word Study Dictionary, The - The Complete Word Study Dictionary – New Testament
.
Wrong. It means to "change"
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
2.to change (Herodotus 5, 68); passive of an office the mode of conferring which is changed, Hebrews 7:12; 71 τίεἰςτί, to turn one thing into another (τιναεἰςπτηνηνφύσιν, Anth. 11, 367, 2); figuratively, τήν ... χάρινεἰςἀσέλγειαν, to pervert the grace of God to license, i. e. to seek from the grace of God an argument in defense of licentiousness, Jude 1:4 (cf. Huther, in the place cited).

Jude 1:4 V-PPA-NMP
GRK: ἡμῶν χάριτα μετατιθέντες εἰς ἀσέλγειαν
NAS: ungodly persons who turn the grace
KJV: ungodly men, turning the grace
INT: of us grace changing into sensuality

Again, you're cherry-picking & twisting the concordance, instead of stating what it really says.


Clarke:
Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness - Making the grace and mercy of God a covering for crimes; intimating that men might sin safely who believe the Gospel, because in that Gospel grace abounds. But perhaps the goodness of God is here meant, for I cannot see how they could believe the Gospel in any way who denied the Lord Jesus Christ; unless, which is likely, their denial refers to this, that while they acknowledged Jesus as the promised Messiah, they denied him to be the only Lord, Sovereign, and Ruler of the Church and of the world. There are many in the present day who hold the same opinion.

Poole:
Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness; abusing the doctrine of the grace of God, and benefits of Christ revealed in the gospel, especially the doctrine of Christian liberty, to the encouraging themselves and others in the vilest lusts,2 Peter 2:1.

Gill:
They may be said to turn it into lasciviousness, either by asserting it to be a licentious doctrine, when it is not; or by treating it in a wanton and ludicrous manner, scoffing at it, and lampooning it; or by making the doctrine of grace universal, extending it equally alike to all mankind, and thereby harden and encourage men in sin.

Cambridge:
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness] The description agrees with that in 2 Peter 2:18-19, in pointing to the party who under the pretence of magnifying the grace of God (Romans 6:1), and asserting their Christian liberty, led base and licentious lives, the party, i.e., condemned alike by St Paul (1 Corinthians 6:9-18), by St Peter (2 Peter 2) and by St John (1 John 3:7-10). See notes on 2 Peter 2.

Now, WHY do you tell bold-faced lies? I'll tell you why..... to deceive the gullible to believe you're using good resources to prove your doctrine is legit when in fact you HAVE to deceive because no good Bible, commentary, or lexicon comes close to agreeing with you.

Look at this:
The ones denying the Lord Jesus Christ are those that deny the grace of God in their lives and exchange His grace for their own ways of living - which includes self-righteous salvationists mindsets. This not only includes those living in homosexual lifestyles - it includes the religious people going to church every sunday that are rejecting the grace of God for their own works.

WHAT RELIGIOUS PEOPLE REJECT GOD'S GRACE?
I haven't seen self-righteous salvationists mindsets..... purely a strawman argument, a fake, like yourself.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#69
All works-based religionists reject the grace of God for their own works and are the very ones that "exchange" the grace of God for their own works. These are the ones that are in fact denying Christ and His finished work of grace for salvation as Jude talks about

I realize that the gospel of the grace of God and His love and great work for us in Christ is against the Pentecostal religion belief that people need to do things in order to keep salvation which is in Christ only and thus their malice for others becomes activated.

There is a way to lose your salvation ( as if it is "your
doing"
that obtained it for you ).....but you have to be able to use a lot of imagination and have a very low opinion of our Lord's sacrifice and the integrity of our Father..( oh brother....:rolleyes: )

You must believe that Jesus is a liar when He said that the Holy Spirit will be with you forever. John 14:16 ( I for one do not believe for a second that the Lord Jesus Christ is a liar )

John 10:28-29 (NASB)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.


You have to be NOT a "no one"...so no one means everyone else but you in order for this to work.....:rolleyes:

All's you do is wrestle yourself out of Jesus' hand...then once you have Him beat...then you are ready to take on the Father. ( He's a little tougher but you will have experience now on how to pluck yourself out of His hand )

In order to scare Jesus and the Father first you must...I repeat MUST intimidate Them with your mighty power by verbally accusing Them....you can tell them that they lied when He said " I
will never leave nor forsake you"

Then because you are in Christ...He is going to have to stop being a High Priest for you..( again God lied when He said He is a priest forever...Heb. 7:21 )

His blood which He spilled for all sins that has been taken away...that has to stop too being efficacious ....Jesus has to stop being the Lamb of God.

Even in the Old Covenant the priest looked at the lamb for blemishes..not the guy who brought the sacrifice.. the Father looks at Jesus....He is our Lamb! He is spotless and blameless.

We are new creations in Christ. Born from above.

To be unborn ...This is like saying..ok..I do not want to be a human now...see..it just doesn't make sense...how does one "un-born" themselves in the Lord. Peter says we are born again of incorruptible seed - the word of God.

.."...as He is..so also are we in this world.."

It's all really ridiculous...our salvation is not based on us...it is based on Jesus and His finished work!...He is faithful and grace much more abounds around sin.

It's just plain "spiritual ignorance that has gone to seed " to think of His perfect work and that somehow it revolves around us and what we do.

John 10:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]
and I "give" eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the "gift" of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 11:29 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

We cannot lose salvation because it is not based on us. People may say strange things if they are sick in their minds but their spirit ( the inner man in Christ ) is safe with the Lord as it has been created in righteousness and holiness.

( Somehow some obscure passages of scripture that people take without looking at it in context nullifies all the vast proof of scriptures that speak otherwise of the integrity of God and His completed work....is it possible we have those scriptures interpreted wrong because we look through the wrong "lens"?...of course.. )
 
Last edited:
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
121
0
#70
His commands are to us to grow up in Christ. I agree they don't oppose grace, they are the effect of grace.
Where do we find Grace? I think if we sincerely confess Jesus as Lord, and believe He was raised from the Dead. we will indeed be saved, but i sinderely believe "Lord" Must be taken as seriously as everything else. this doesnt mean we need to be perfect to come to Jesus, or even be perfect in obedience, but i like how u said grow up in Christ. I think we must submit or some would say " surrender" our minds and hearts to His word rather than avoid it because He is savior, He is Lord, shepherd, teacher, His words are spirit, and He says the spirit of truth will bring remembrance of His words. because not only are His words things of Judgement and obedience But there is so much Grace and also promises in the four Gospels.

That is the Word that began preaching eternal Life in Gods Kingdom. The prophets foretold it would come with the messiah and that it would be sent to the whole world through the Jews. sometimes for some folks grace omits the word of God is the only issue I have with some of the grace teachings, and its never a good thing to let a doctrine do that......

also cee, although we havent always agreed, i always have respected the way you present someone who is maturing and growing in your words, always consider carefully any post i may see of yours. God bless man
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#71
Here is what Jude says at the end of his letter concerning those that are in Christ and believe in Christ and are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Jude 1:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

We see that it is God Himself that keeps us and to make us stand blameless in His presence.

The Holy Spirit is with us forever Jesus said.

John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

[SUP]17 [/SUP]that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The Spirit of truth is with us
forever!

2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of
the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever. John 14:16-17.

Our Lord is NOT a liar. We can trust Him to be faithful to us. His love and grace is more than enough and His work is finished for us - He bought eternal redemption for us with His blood.

We are safe in the Lord as He keeps us. Isn't that exciting to know that?


Sin does not touch our new creation in Christ where we are joined as one spirit with the Lord forever. 1 Cor. 6:17. Does this want us to go out and sin all we want? NO - a thousand times no -

Of course not - it does the opposite and makes us run to our Lord for His grace and love to be manifested in our lives as we have our minds transformed by the Holy Spirit.


1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins;
but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Jesus Himself keeps us because we are in Christ.


 
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
121
0
#72
This is part of a sermon by Dr. J. Vernon McGee about grace, this is to people who are saved, not unbelievers:

"Two words here are important: teaching and live. The grace of God teaches us, and the grace of God teaches us how to live. In this verse God is not speaking to all men. He is speaking only to those who have come through the first time zone. He is speaking to those who have been saved by His grace. Now as we come into the present where we are today, God says, 'I have something more for you. The grace of God will not only save you, the grace of God will teach you--teach you how to live.' And it is the only thing that will. If you have been saved by the grace of God through the merit of Christ, then God has some demands to make upon you. But remember, He is not talking to the world now. Will you hear me carefully? I want to be kind but I want to be very firm. God is not trying to reform the world; He is redeeming men who will accept Christ. God has no good advice to offer unsaved men; the gospel is not an appeal to Christ-rejecting men to do better. I asked a man who came to me if he wanted to accept Christ. He said, 'Well, I'll talk to you later about that. You know, I'm going to try to do better.' I think I shocked him by saying, 'You are a liar. You are not going to try to do better because if you are honest you know you have tried before, haven't you?' 'Yes' he admitted.
'How did you come out?'
'Well, I didn't do it.'
'Neither will you do it this time. And I have news for you--God is not asking you to do better!' No, He is not. God has not asked the unsaved man to reform. I want to say this: If you have rejected Jesus Christ, if you have never accepted Him as your Savior, and you are trying to work this thing out yourself, you should try to get all you can out of life. The government at this moment is attempting a health education program and is asking you to give up cigarettes. But God is not asking this of you. No, He is not. Eat, drink, smoke cigarettes, for tomorrow you'll die of lung cancer, and they will put you in a flip-top box. Just to reform will not save you, so go ahead, get all you can out of this life, because you are lost. However, God is calling those who are His own, whom He has redeemed by the blood of Christ, to live for Him. He is teaching them to live. The word teach means to train a child, to educate. It is a process. The reason He saved you and left you in this life is that He might train you, that He might develop you.
There are two specifics concerning the teaching of grace that I want to mention.
The first specific is that the standards of grace are immeasurably higher than the standards of the law in the Old Testament. Someone asks, 'How could David get by with sin?' My friend, if you read the record right, you will find that he did not get by with it. And if you have been saved by the grace of God, you won't get by with sin. You have been called to a higher plane than were the men of the Old Testament. The Mosaic Law said, 'Love thy neighbor as thyself.' Now listen to the law of Jesus:
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34)
He has called you to a much higher plane. Love your neighbor, not as yourself, but as Christ loves him! He repeats this standard:
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (John 15:12)
Paul was confronted by this new standard. Paul was a Pharisee, proud as a peacock. He kept the Mosaic Law, and he said that he could stand blameless before God. But he was filled with pride--pride of place, pride of race, pride of face, pride of grace. That is the quartet that moves in upon all of us. Pride of place--he said, 'I am a man of Tarsus, a citizen of no mean city.'
Pride of race--'I am a Hebrew of the Hebrews.' Pride of face--'I am a Pharisee,' a religious ruler, probably the most brilliant man of his day. Pride of grace--a cultured gentleman, a Roman citizen, and educated in all of the Greek philosophies. With all of this, he was lost. And when he came to Jesus Christ he found that there was a new standard altogether. He mentions it:
In lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves. (Philippians 2:3)
These commandments are on a higher plane than was ever presented under the law. It is so high that you may say, 'that is a superhuman standard, and I cannot measure up to it.' You are right. It is superhuman. God knows you cannot live up to it, and that brings me to this second specific of teaching us to live today.
Not only is the standard superhuman, but He has given supernatural enablement to live for Him. Listen to His provision:
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1 Corinthians 2:12)
And to those who were carnal believers:
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Corinthians 6:19, 20)
Also he points out this to the Galatian Christians:
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2, 3)
And through the beloved apostle John He writes:
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. (1 John 3:24)
God, you see, has provided a supernatural enablement so that His child is not left to his own devices. God has given to him the Holy Spirit whereby he can live for God. He not only has delivered us from the penalty of sin, but He has delivered us from the power of sin. No wonder John Newton could say, 'I am what I am by the grace of God.' God by His grace provides the power to live for Him in the here and now."
Really good stuff 1 question ... What happens if someone Has this wonderful Knowledge, and continues to live against Gods word, and refuses to repent? Just curious if there is a point where we need to step into action and become accountable according to our actions now being redeemed ? are we free of punishment always ?
 
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
121
0
#73
Here is what Jude says at the end of his letter concerning those that are in Christ and believe in Christ and are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Jude 1:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

We see that it is God Himself that keeps us and to make us stand blameless in His presence.

The Holy Spirit is with us forever Jesus said.

John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

[SUP]17 [/SUP]that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The Spirit of truth is with us
forever!

2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of
the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever. John 14:16-17.

Our Lord is NOT a liar. We can trust Him to be faithful to us. His love and grace is more than enough and His work is finished for us - He bought eternal redemption for us with His blood.

We are safe in the Lord as He keeps us. Isn't that exciting to know that?


Sin does not touch our new creation in Christ where we are joined as one spirit with the Lord forever. 1 Cor. 6:17. Does this want us to go out and sin all we want? NO - a thousand times no -

Of course not - it does the opposite and makes us run to our Lord for His grace and love to be manifested in our lives as we have our minds transformed by the Holy Spirit.


1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins;
but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Jesus Himself keeps us because we are in Christ.


what about everything else jude wrote though bruce? how does one scripture nullify all the others, Grace of God doesnt do that, it Loves the obedience stuff because it is food for growth and greater Knowledge of Jesus Christ. one scripture about Gods provision doesnt then mean ignore the rest. its meant to take both peices of truth and reconcile them with all the many other truths. Grace is a wonderful part of salvation, its all because of Grace...But there is much to learn and many things to go forth and do Having the knowledge of Gods Great atoning sacrifice.

Our Jobs in truth is to go live Lives affecting the world around us. Helping other people who are in any need we are able to help. to actually live as the good samaritan, Honor others above ourself. The gospel is much more about How we treat one another than anything Else. Love is found in Jesus doctrine and His actions, perfect Love that reaches out in love for others, understanding that God Loves us is only the beginning, then to go express His Love through His teachings that teach us what to do to Live right.

To Love one another in truth with actions. the poor, the elderly, the Lonely, the fatherless, the beggar, the single struggling mother, the person who is in need and we are able to Love by actually laying our selves down and acting in the righteousness Of Christ which is true Godly brotherly Love. we obey God, thats what any beleivers real Job is no matter How we think, its about doing the things God is teaching us to do. which is treat each other with the Love of Jesus Christ.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,236
26,288
113
#74
This is part of a sermon by Dr. J. Vernon McGee about grace, this is to people who are saved, not unbelievers:

"Two words here are important: teaching and live. The grace of God teaches us, and the grace of God teaches us how to live. In this verse God is not speaking to all men. He is speaking only to those who have come through the first time zone. He is speaking to those who have been saved by His grace. Now as we come into the present where we are today, God says, 'I have something more for you. The grace of God will not only save you, the grace of God will teach you--teach you how to live.' And it is the only thing that will. If you have been saved by the grace of God through the merit of Christ, then God has some demands to make upon you. But remember, He is not talking to the world now. Will you hear me carefully? I want to be kind but I want to be very firm. God is not trying to reform the world; He is redeeming men who will accept Christ. God has no good advice to offer unsaved men; the gospel is not an appeal to Christ-rejecting men to do better. I asked a man who came to me if he wanted to accept Christ. He said, 'Well, I'll talk to you later about that. You know, I'm going to try to do better.' I think I shocked him by saying, 'You are a liar. You are not going to try to do better because if you are honest you know you have tried before, haven't you?' 'Yes' he admitted.

'How did you come out?'

'Well, I didn't do it.'

'Neither will you do it this time. And I have news for you--God is not asking you to do better!' No, He is not. God has not asked the unsaved man to reform. I want to say this: If you have rejected Jesus Christ, if you have never accepted Him as your Savior, and you are trying to work this thing out yourself, you should try to get all you can out of life. The government at this moment is attempting a health education program and is asking you to give up cigarettes. But God is not asking this of you. No, He is not. Eat, drink, smoke cigarettes, for tomorrow you'll die of lung cancer, and they will put you in a flip-top box. Just to reform will not save you, so go ahead, get all you can out of this life, because you are lost. However, God is calling those who are His own, whom He has redeemed by the blood of Christ, to live for Him. He is teaching them to live. The word teach means to train a child, to educate. It is a process. The reason He saved you and left you in this life is that He might train you, that He might develop you.

There are two specifics concerning the teaching of grace that I want to mention.

The first specific is that the standards of grace are immeasurably higher than the standards of the law in the Old Testament. Someone asks, 'How could David get by with sin?' My friend, if you read the record right, you will find that he did not get by with it. And if you have been saved by the grace of God, you won't get by with sin. You have been called to a higher plane than were the men of the Old Testament. The Mosaic Law said, 'Love thy neighbor as thyself.' Now listen to the law of Jesus:

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34)

He has called you to a much higher plane. Love your neighbor, not as yourself, but as Christ loves him! He repeats this standard:

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (John 15:12)

Paul was confronted by this new standard. Paul was a Pharisee, proud as a peacock. He kept the Mosaic Law, and he said that he could stand blameless before God. But he was filled with pride--pride of place, pride of race, pride of face, pride of grace. That is the quartet that moves in upon all of us. Pride of place--he said, 'I am a man of Tarsus, a citizen of no mean city.'

Pride of race--'I am a Hebrew of the Hebrews.' Pride of face--'I am a Pharisee,' a religious ruler, probably the most brilliant man of his day. Pride of grace--a cultured gentleman, a Roman citizen, and educated in all of the Greek philosophies. With all of this, he was lost. And when he came to Jesus Christ he found that there was a new standard altogether. He mentions it:

In lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves. (Philippians 2:3)
These commandments are on a higher plane than was ever presented under the law. It is so high that you may say, 'that is a superhuman standard, and I cannot measure up to it.' You are right. It is superhuman. God knows you cannot live up to it, and that brings me to this second specific of teaching us to live today.

Not only is the standard superhuman, but He has given supernatural enablement to live for Him. Listen to His provision:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1 Corinthians 2:12)

And to those who were carnal believers:

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Corinthians 6:19, 20)

Also he points out this to the Galatian Christians:

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2, 3)

And through the beloved apostle John He writes:

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. (1 John 3:24)

God, you see, has provided a supernatural enablement so that His child is not left to his own devices. God has given to him the Holy Spirit whereby he can live for God. He not only has delivered us from the penalty of sin, but He has delivered us from the power of sin. No wonder John Newton could say, 'I am what I am by the grace of God.' God by His grace provides the power to live for Him in the here and now."
I love J. Vernon McGee! I heard his voice as I read this :)

Thank you for sharing. Sadly, some will fail to understand.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#75
what about everything else jude wrote though bruce? how does one scripture nullify all the others, Grace of God doesnt do that, it Loves the obedience stuff because it is food for growth and greater Knowledge of Jesus Christ. one scripture about Gods provision doesnt then mean ignore the rest. its meant to take both peices of truth and reconcile them with all the many other truths. Grace is a wonderful part of salvation, its all because of Grace...But there is much to learn and many things to go forth and do Having the knowledge of Gods Great atoning sacrifice.

Our Jobs in truth is to go live Lives affecting the world around us. Helping other people who are in any need we are able to help. to actually live as the good samaritan, Honor others above ourself. The gospel is much more about How we treat one another than anything Else. Love is found in Jesus doctrine and His actions, perfect Love that reaches out in love for others, understanding that God Loves us is only the beginning, then to go express His Love through His teachings that teach us what to do to Live right.

To Love one another in truth with actions. the poor, the elderly, the Lonely, the fatherless, the beggar, the single struggling mother, the person who is in need and we are able to Love by actually laying our selves down and acting in the righteousness Of Christ which is true Godly brotherly Love. we obey God, thats what any beleivers real Job is no matter How we think, its about doing the things God is teaching us to do. which is treat each other with the Love of Jesus Christ.
Jason I don't feel like going over the whole book of Jude as it says many things concerning different types of people including actual believers in Christ - I was just relating to how the true grace of God changes us as we trust in Him and His finished work.

No one says not to be obedient to the Lord that I have seen - I have seen some on here deny the finished work of Christ in His grace and love for us for their own self-righteousness/holiness.

It's great to know that we can trust the Lord in all things as He is faithful to be with us forever. My favorite verse is Phil. 2:13

"For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure".

He supplies both the desire and the capability to carry out those good things that He has planned for us.

Jesus said that " who is forgiven much loves much". Luke 7:47 We celebrate His forgiveness as we learn to rely on His life in and through us to manifest His love and grace to others in this hurt and dying world.
 
Last edited:
Mar 11, 2016
3,055
241
63
Singapore
abigail.pro
#76
Are we really doing this again? Oh well.

If we are under grace, sin shall have no dominion over us.

How, then, is grace a license to sin when it's the very thing that sets us free?
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
33
#77
Really? Check this out.....

https://escapetoreality.org/2011/07/04/what-happens-to-christians-who-commit-suicide/

If greasy gracers believe that christians that commit suicide still go to heaven, WHAT ELSE CAN THEY DO? I'll tell you.....
They can backslide & still go to heaven.

https://escapetoreality.org/2013/04/10/what-happens-to-christians-who-stray/
If Jesus paid for all sin at the cross and if suicide is a sin, how then is it not paid for if He paid for all sin? Something doesn't line up in your belief system if you believe people, believers, who commit suicide go to Hell. If Jesus paid for all sin and suicide is considered a sin then such a sin would be washed away in the blood of Christ.

To argue otherwise you would have to believe Jesus didn't pay the price for all sin. You will not find in scripture that suicide is an unpardonable sin, rather that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

PS [to any reader of this post]: This in no way, shape or form is an endorsement for suicide. If you're struggling with contemplating suicide seek help, talk with someone. God has plans for your life that extend beyond your current circumstances. There is hope.
 
Dec 22, 2016
120
0
0
#78
no we should not continue in sin.

if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father.

1 John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

if anyone does sin, he can seek forgiveness through Christ.

Romans 8:34
Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God--and He is interceding for us.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

if anyone says he does not have sin, there's no truth in him.

1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us

if anyone does sin, Christ can and will cleanse from all unrighteousness....

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

....if we confess our sin.



no we should not continue in sin.
Wow



Insightful
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#79
Neither are a license to sin. That is your, and many others, false assumption. Your issue with both is fabricated.
NOPE. Your accusation is fabricated.

MONDAY, JANUARY 25, 2010

GREASY GRACE BRINGS DISGRACE



There are those who think that salvation by grace gives them a license to live outside of grace. They have effectively turned the grace of God into lasciviousness, Jude 1:4. Lasciviousness is uncleanness in lifestyle. Saying that the grace bestowed on believers by the vicarious sacrifice of Jesus Christ rids them of all guilt past, present and future they make allowance for all manner of wilful disobedience. I say, by reason of witness, that this is a damnable teaching that causes a lot of foolish people to fall to sin that they otherwise would have resisted.



 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#80
Originally Posted by Stephen63



Really? Check this out.....

https://escapetoreality.org/2011/07/...ommit-suicide/

If greasy gracers believe that christians that commit suicide still go to heaven, WHAT ELSE CAN THEY DO? I'll tell you.....
They can backslide & still go to heaven.

https://escapetoreality.org/2013/04/...ans-who-stray/


If Jesus paid for all sin at the cross and if suicide is a sin, how then is it not paid for if He paid for all sin? Something doesn't line up in your belief system if you believe people, believers, who commit suicide go to Hell. If Jesus paid for all sin and suicide is considered a sin then such a sin would be washed away in the blood of Christ.

To argue otherwise you would have to believe Jesus didn't pay the price for all sin. You will not find in scripture that suicide is an unpardonable sin, rather that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

PS [to any reader of this post]: This in no way, shape or form is an endorsement for suicide. If you're struggling with contemplating suicide seek help, talk with someone. God has plans for your life that extend beyond your current circumstances. There is hope.
Amen...

If some one is sick in their body and they die - will they still go to heaven? Of course they will. Suicide is a sickness in the head.

Works-based religionists say that people who are sick in their head will not go to heaven because of what they have done to themselves. It is obvious they have no idea of the grace and love of God for those that are hurting. They are perverting the gospel of the grace of God shown in Christ's finished work for all of us that believe and trust in Him.

Imagine the damage done to those loved ones that had those commit suicide from Christians and some are suppose to be pastors telling them that their loved one is in hell because they are sick in their mind and hurt themselves.

It's no wonder the world rejects what they think is Christ when they see garbage like this being said. They are not rejecting Christ - they are rejecting what some of us are representing Christ as being. Thank God that He can work around these and reveal His true love and grace towards their loved ones.