Greek help with Romans 8:27 ?

trofimus · Sep 24, 2017

Enow said:

I do not know the context of this topic. What is your application you probably discussed in another forum? Speaking in tongues issue or something else?

I do not think that the letter of Romans is related to speaking in tongues, if this is the case. I also do not think that J 16:13 and Romans have the same context.

unobtrusive · Sep 24, 2017

I think Romans 8:27 could be compared with 2 Corinthians 12:4 in principle.

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is *not lawful for a man to utter.

In other words, these are statements (sayings) that are so infinite, that our minds are unable to find the words to describe the depth thereof.

Sometimes we have such deep feelings and emotions concerning our trials, tribulations, ecstatic emotions of gladness, and/or sorrow, that we have no alternative to scream only only 2 words, which are "help me!" I remember those times in my personal life, and all one can do is ask for "help" which is the only word we can utter, but there is obviously much more behind this one syllable, but that's all we are able to verbalize at the time. That's when the Spirit of God intercedes and explains things that we are unable to verbalize.

"*Not lawful" in 2 Corinthians could be explained as...an infinite presence, incomprehensible, presently expressing the past without limit.

Maybe I was incomprehensible with this explanation. (pun intended)

MarcR · Sep 24, 2017

Enow said:

All I can say is that the grammar and syntax rule of the English has been found throughout all of scripture but suddenly the Greek as one entirely different for one verse? I have to say they used the errant translation of most modern Bible to come up with that grammar & syntax rule which hardly follows the pattern for the whole Bible.

Jesus Christ is the only One at that throne of grace for us to have access to God the Father by; Hebrews 4:12-16

The man Christ Jesus is the only Mediator between God and men; 1 Timothy 2:5

The prayer system is set up in this way... only the Son can answer prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers;

John 14: [SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....[SUP]13 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

The Holy Spirit assists in Jesus answering prayers BUT the Spirit gives the Son all the glory for answered prayers and for His workmanship in our lives with the fruits of the Spirit. John 16:13-15 & Philippians 1:6,11

Since His intercessions are unspeakable, that means the Holy Spirit cannot give His intercessions to God the Father; Another has to do it by knowing the mind of the Spirit BECAUSE "He", as in Jesus Christ, intercedes for the saints in according to the will of God as previously stated above to the role of the only Mediator between God and man as all power has been given unto Him in heaven and on earth.

Matthew 28:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

May God cause the increase.

In English as in Greek personal pronouns refer to the closest preceding noun of the same gender and relative pronouns refer to the closest preceding noun.

Enow · Sep 24, 2017

trofimus said:

With the author of this OP on the application of Romans 8:26-27 as being used by tongue speakers as Biblical evidence on how the Holy Spirit will use tongues that cannot be interpreted as a form of prayer, this was being discussed in another thread.

The author of the OP ... if you read the thread from the beginning... was not seeing Romans 8:26-27 to be a reference to tongues as you do, but then he began to oppose himself and was operating on both sides of the fence until finally, he came to the conclusion that Romans 8:26-27 was not referring to tongues at all.

If you follow the conversation, you will see how others are seeing it as a reference to tongues, directly or indirectly, while one that I recall only noted that verse 27 cannot end with "the Spirit", but the author of the OP did not comprehend his answer in replying to that post.

But the author of that OP agrees now that Romans 8:26-27 was not about tongues... albeit, I am not sure if he agrees yet that verse 27 cannot conclude with "the Spirit" yet in seeing that grammatical error that I plainly see by His grace & by His help.

When dealing with believers that think Romans 8:26-27 does read to them to be about tongues as used by the Holy Spirit for prayer, John 16:13 has to come into play to testify that the Holy Spirit CANNOT use tongues to voice His own intercessions since John 16:13 testify that He cannot speak on His own volition... speak on His own authority... speak on His own accord.. if you keep going across all the Bible versions.. He cannot speak of Himself as the KJV has it, but speaks what He hears.

The Spirit cannot cease to be speaking as the Spirit of Christ to start speaking for Himself or from Himself, let alone express His groanings when He has intercessions but cannot give them to God the Father, Himself, that He needs another which is Jesus Christ knowing the mind of the Spirit BECAUSE He intercedes for the saints in according to the will of God of being that only Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5

Enow · Sep 24, 2017

MarcR said:

Then explain the "because" in verse 27 as deferring from the testimony of verse 26.

MarcR · Sep 24, 2017

Enow said:

Ro 8:18-27
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Whatever we suffer now is nothing compared with what God has waiting for us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

For the earnest expectation our hope based on God’s promise

of the creature of we who are saved and are a new creation by our rebirth and adoptiom

manifestation of the sons of God

we are now adopted and are God’s children but we don’t look any different yet. The manifestation will be apparent when we receive our glorified bodies.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

subject to vanity ineffectual and frail

by reason of him who hath subjected the same because God has made us that way to teach us to depend on him

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Mankind, unassisted by God, can do nothing to improve our condition
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We also who have the Holy Spirit still struggle with our sin nature while we await our glorified bodies.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Hope is faith is reliance on the truth of God’s word

we must rely on God’s promises even before they are received in full.

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:

but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

And he that searcheth the hearts is God whether the Father or the Son or both.

knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit understands the Spirit’s groanings

because he [the Spirit] maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Enow · Sep 24, 2017

MarcR said:

Talking about Jesus Christ Whom we hope in.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:

Note likewise as testifying to Another.

Agree to a point; the use of itself instead of Himself suggests He is not giving His intercessions directly Himself.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

If you believe that, then discern more. It cannot be the Father for one reason only. The Father is not making intercessions to Anyone above Him. That leaves only the Son. Intercessions are being given to the Father by the Son only as He alone is at that throne of grace as there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

When His groanings cannot be uttered, hence the necessity to know the mind of the Spirit's.

The "he" cannot be the Spirit.

Because and it is because of the word because interjected in there .... thus deferring from the testimony of the Spirit in verse 26 and going back to the testimony of the Son in explaining how the unspeakable & unutterable intercessions of the Spirit's are given to God the Father by the Son knowing the mind of the Spirit.

Therefore the Spirit cannot give His intercessions to the Father because the will of God is this; that there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

When the Son presents any intercessions to The Father, be it from us, or from the Spirit, or from Himself, when the Father says "Yes" to any of those intercessions, the Son answers the prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:13-14

So Jesus really is the only way to come to God the father by so that when the Holy Spirit has intercessions for us, they have to go through the Lamb of God at that throne of grace. The Holy Spirit cannot give His intercessions to the father any more than we can since only the Son can present them to the father and only the Son can answer them for the Father to be glorified in the Son for answered prayers.

Dino246 · Sep 24, 2017

Enow said:

Actually, the OP didn't mention "tongues" at all. While that may have been the context that lead to his question, he made no reference to it in the OP. He specifically asked about the identity of the second "he" in Romans 8:27.

Enow said:

I suggest you check the KJV again; John 16:13 does not say that the Holy Spirit "cannot" speak of himself; it says he "shall not" speak of himself. As I said in an earlier post, this can mean one of several things, and there is not sufficient justification for it to mean only what you think it means.

Enow said:

There is no direct mention of Jesus Christ in the verses immediately preceding. God, yes; Jesus Christ, no.

Enow said:

"Likewise" doesn't necessarily testify of another person in the way you suggest. It makes more sense to me that, as the preceding verses discuss the travail of the creation (creature, in the KJV) and the groaning within us who have the Spirit, that the "likewise" is a connection between the hope we have for redemption of our bodies and the help of the Spirit for our spirits. If this is the case, it's an awkward structure but certainly not out of the question.

Enow said:

That's a stretch. Verse 16 also uses "itself" in the KJV as follows: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God;" and if it means someone else in verse 26, then it means someone else in verse 16. I think you're simply incorrect on this point. The "auto" in the Greek clearly indicates a reflexive meaning.

MarcR · Sep 24, 2017

Enow said:

Talking about Jesus Christ Whom we hope in.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:

Note likewise as testifying to Another.

Agree to a point; the use of itself instead of Himself suggests He is not giving His intercessions directly Himself.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

If you believe that, then discern more. It cannot be the Father for one reason only. The Father is not making intercessions to Anyone above Him. That leaves only the Son. Intercessions are being given to the Father by the Son only as He alone is at that throne of grace as there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

When His groanings cannot be uttered, hence the necessity to know the mind of the Spirit's.

The "he" cannot be the Spirit.

Because and it is because of the word because interjected in there .... thus deferring from the testimony of the Spirit in verse 26 and going back to the testimony of the Son in explaining how the unspeakable & unutterable intercessions of the Spirit's are given to God the Father by the Son knowing the mind of the Spirit.

Therefore the Spirit cannot give His intercessions to the Father because the will of God is this; that there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

When the Son presents any intercessions to The Father, be it from us, or from the Spirit, or from Himself, when the Father says "Yes" to any of those intercessions, the Son answers the prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:13-14

So Jesus really is the only way to come to God the father by so that when the Holy Spirit has intercessions for us, they have to go through the Lamb of God at that throne of grace. The Holy Spirit cannot give His intercessions to the father any more than we can since only the Son can present them to the father and only the Son can answer them for the Father to be glorified in the Son for answered prayers.

God (the father or the Son) is not making intercession here He is receiving intercession from the Spirit.

In Greek pneuma 'Spirit' is neuter gender but he the Spirit is a person of the Godhead.

posthuman · Sep 24, 2017

Enow said:

Romans 8:26 makes it plain that the Spirit intercedes for us -- "for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us"

just 15 words after literally stating that the Spirit intercedes for the saints, Paul writes in an explanatory clause that "he makes intercession for the saints" -- so since the context is clearly that the Spirit makes intercession, and the rules of the language's grammar clearly points to the Spirit making intercession, and the preceding verse explicitly states without ambiguity that the Spirit makes intercession, how can a person deny that the Spirit makes intercession?
you may make arguments about Romans 8:27, but Romans 8:26 leaves no room for such dispute.

did we break the Bible?

if there is no other intercessor whatsoever but Christ, then how could we pray for one another? we intercede when we do this, but do we mediate?

but in 1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 9:15 etc. the word is "μεσιτεύω (mesiteuó)"
in Romans 8:26 it is not the same word; it is "ὑπερεντυγχάνει (hyperentynchanei)" could someone explain what the difference is? in English 'to mediate' and 'to intercede' are conflated terms, but the Bible is not written in English ((sorry to disappoint, KJV fans, but it's the truth)). we're looking at translations of Greek text, and no doubt subtlety of intention and meaning is often lost. help?

posthuman · Sep 24, 2017

Enow said:

did Christ not also groan?

When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her,
He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled
(John 11:33)

John 16:13 makes no distinction between audible/inaudible - 1 Timothy 4:1 doesn't seem to indicate one way or the other in that regard either. the word here in John 11:33 seems to carry a definite connotation of an audible noise ((correct me if i'm wrong?)) according to the HELPS Word study..

.. does it really make a difference if Romans 8:26-27 is a reference to something audible or inaudible?
i think the primary meaning is that He intercedes with a deep passion & yearning which human language is unable to express, and that as a matter of course, since we are talking about the Spirit, it may be tacitly assumed that it is a spiritual, not physical matter, and that sound being physical phenomena, more than likely it's not audible - though i still don't see why there should be any contradiction with John 16:13 if it were to be physically audible: see above, Jesus groaned. couldn't the Spirit hear Him?

posthuman · Sep 24, 2017

Enow said:

all this is still under the assumption ((which still doesn't seem to me to be in any way necessary to make unless you want to create contradictions in the text)) that the "he" that knows the mind of the Spirit has to be the same "he" that makes intercession for the saints.

addressing that assumption, by examining the syntax of the text in its original language, was the primary goal of this thread, though i'm actually quite pleased for the discussion to grow into all the places it needs to reach in order to discuss the greater implications

posthuman · Sep 24, 2017

Depleted said:

A question asked out of utter ignorance. I know Greek about as well as I know what's on the planet exactly opposite of Earth in the universe, but since I'd like to know too, but don't know who to trust out of all these answers, gonna ask --

How many of you answerers truly know Greek? And I mean know it, because I can look up words in concordances too, but that doesn't mean I can understand the grammar, tense, context, and cadence of the word when it's in a verse. So how many understand Greek enough to do all that linguistic/language nerdy stuff I don't get in foreign languages? (And it's a good nerdy. I wish I was that kind of person. lol)

well, not me.

that's why i made the thread

MarcR · Sep 25, 2017

posthuman said:

Romans 8:26 makes it plain that the Spirit intercedes for us -- "for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us"

just 15 words after literally stating that the Spirit intercedes for the saints, Paul writes in an explanatory clause that "he makes intercession for the saints" -- so since the context is clearly that the Spirit makes intercession, and the rules of the language's grammar clearly points to the Spirit making intercession, and the preceding verse explicitly states without ambiguity that the Spirit makes intercession, how can a person deny that the Spirit makes intercession?
you may make arguments about Romans 8:27, but Romans 8:26 leaves no room for such dispute.

did we break the Bible?

if there is no other intercessor whatsoever but Christ, then how could we pray for one another? we intercede when we do this, but do we mediate?

but in 1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 9:15 etc. the word is "μεσιτεύω (mesiteuó)"
in Romans 8:26 it is not the same word; it is "ὑπερεντυγχάνει (hyperentynchanei)" could someone explain what the difference is? in English 'to mediate' and 'to intercede' are conflated terms, but the Bible is not written in English ((sorry to disappoint, KJV fans, but it's the truth)). we're looking at translations of Greek text, and no doubt subtlety of intention and meaning is often lost. help?

The best way to understand mediation is to look at labor disputes.

Often to avoid a strike, or to end one, both employer and union will agree to mediation.

A person respected by both sides is selected to hear both sides and decide the issue.

To intercede on behalf of another person does not require any authority it only requires compassion.

know1 · Sep 25, 2017

posthuman said:

Good find in scripture.
Everything is correct except for one thing. They assumed the mind of the spirit was that of the Holy Spirit and not the spirit of man.
I have been saying for years that man is a triune being even as God is. And like God, we too have a spirit man as part of our makeup.
Haven't you read in 1st Correct 14 where Paul says our spirit prays? Our spirit man thinks, speaks and has a mind of its own just like you do. And the spirit of man is within the heart of man,, which is the 2nd person of our triune being. Both the heart and spirit of man have a mind of thier own, for each is a being.
Try looking at verse 27 as though it is our spiritman that the Holy Spirit searches and intercedes for, and tell me if that makes more sense. For the verse is about man, not the Spirit of God.

posthuman · Sep 25, 2017

Enow said:

this isn't really accurate, from my point of view.

i've never thought this passage is about tongues - i did say that in the context of talking with people who were trying to defend 'praying in unknown tongues' and 'angelic languages' i have often cited this verse as an example of the Spirit praying, pointing out that the Spirit's prayer is described as 'inexpressible groanings' -- which doesn't match up with the kind of glossolalia that is commonly being defended by those people. such people ((as far as i know)) are talking about chattering in syllabic, patterned noises that mimic but aren't identified with any known language, not groaning, and are suggesting that it is 'tongues of angels.'

i would cite this as a counterexample to what i suspect is counterfeit tongues, not as an example of what tongue-speaking should be, and have only ever associated this with tongues in that it is similarly the action of the Spirit within us, though in this case not capable of being humanly expressed, whereas with tongues the man or woman being filled with the Spirit speaks recognizably and clearly, albeit in a language not native to the speaker.

you could say that what Romans 8:26-27 is speaking about is as i understand it untranslatable, but the gift of tongues is as i understand it is always translatable, though a translator may not be found. that doesn't make Romans 8:26-27 about tongues, though about perhaps a similar working, and i believe it to provide a sharp contrast between what may be heard in charismatic meetings being described as 'spirit prayer' and the scripture's own description of the prayer of the Spirit, which is 'too deep for words'

as far as being on both sides of the fence about it, i think we were talking past each other for a while, not really understanding what each other was trying to express ((hey - maybe we still are haha). my understanding of how this relates to speaking in tongues hasn't changed; i see it as contrasting to tongue-speaking, and always have, and i initially didn't comprehend that your objections were still concerned with that aspect of it.

posthuman · Sep 25, 2017

Dino246 said:

isn't "likewise" directly coupling the whole of creation 'groaning' ((v. 22)) & we ourselves 'groaning' ((v. 23)) with this intercessory 'groaning' action of the Spirit ((v. 26)), all of us in anticipation and yearning for the reconciliation of all things, sin, death & all evil being finally purged and destroyed forever as all things are perfected on that final day?

the creation anticipates being made new, free from the curse, and we anticipate the redemption of our bodies, being made like Him, and the Spirit anticipates our ultimate unification with our Lord? all things are in faith looking to God, saying 'how long, Lord? come soon!' - this plea being itself a far-from-adequate expression of what the life in creation, our souls, and the Spirit within us are all similarly longing for.

posthuman · Sep 25, 2017

Enow said:

what we're looking at, in relation to Christ also sharing this inexpressible emotion, is as the Groom yearning in anticipation for the day of His marriage, which time is set according to the old Hebrew custom by the will of the Father, who alone 'knows the day and the hour' ♥

in that respect the Spirit and the Son are certainly unified according to the will and desire of the Father, whose will we also are being conformed to, amen!

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Greek help with Romans 8:27 ?

trofimus

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