Have Evangelicals Lost the Gospel

[presidente]

Do you think it is possible to have a personal relationship with someone and not know them? How can anyone have a personal relationship with Jesus and not know he died on a cross for their justification, not know that he rose from the dead? It's not possible.

I don't assume that people who hear a preacher talk about a personal relationship with Jesus without preaching the gospel are necessarily saved.... or necessarily go on to have a personal relationship with Jesus.

If we want unbelievers to have the proper relationship with God, we need to tell them the Gospel, not only talk about having a personal relationship.

Btw, Judas had a personal relationship with Jesus. Probably, plenty of people from Nazareth had a personal relationship with Jesus, including some of those who expressed unbelief when He came to town. Were they all saved?

 

[presidente]

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." (Personal fellowship with the Lord)

Who is the audience, the angel/messenger of a church. This is to be read to a church. It isn't a verse addressed to unbelievers.

Btw, I'm not saying that believers don't benefit from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I'm saying that if we want people to know Christ, then we need to preach to them that Christ died for their sins according to the scriptures, that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day, according to the scriptures. (I Corinthians 15:3-4.) Talking to them about a personal relationship alone won't save them. They need to hear the Gospel.

 

[presidente]

So guys, what does a 'personal relationship' mean to you? Does it mean Jesus comes down and eats breakfast or dinner with you, literally or in a vision? Do you carry on conversations with Christ?

Now, put yourself in the shoes of a totally unchurched person who has never even watched a Christian TV show or heard a Christian talk to him about a 'personal relationship with Jesus Christ.' If he hears you tell him about that, what do you think he will think you mean by that? Will he understand what YOU mean by it based on what you say to him?

A lot of times we hear these phrases so much they lose their meaning, or we understand the meaning but don't realize other people won't. The apostles did not present the Gospel in such an obscure way, and they didn't present it as 'have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.'

A lot of people say, "I don't want to talk about my faith because it's personal." Where did they learn that faith was too 'personal' to talk about. They may have heard an Evangelical Christian talk about their 'personal relationship with Jesus Christ.' This person might even have repeated a prayer, without hearing the Gospel, and he might have been guaranteed eternal life by the person who did it, getting his inoculation to the Gospel. Next time someone tries to witness to him, he may think, "I've been there. Done that. I don't need to hear that anymore. I've already got my 'get out of Hell free card' if this stuff is true, because I repeated a prayer."

Some people who don't want to go to church may think that way because they have been taught that all that matters is your personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If that's true, why would anyone go to church or help anyone else out with anything. It's an individualistic gospel.

 

[shotgunner]

Of course it is. My concern is that what I see preached in scripture is often lacking from what is preached from the pulpit, on TV, and on street corners. I've been in church services where the cross and resurrection isn't mentioned, but the preacher leads people to ask Jesus into their heart. I've been in meetings where the same thing is done and the cross is mentioned, but not the resurrection.

I've also seen a preacher call a man who absent-mindedly raised his hand when the preacher asked who hadn't prayed to receive Christ. The man didn't know he was responding to an altar call. The preacher had him repeat a prayer, and he was declared a member of the body of Christ. It was obvious he wasn't trying to respond to the Gospel and I even confirmed that with him. I've heard a preacher say you aren't saved if you haven't said that prayer, and I've seen someone try to push someone who did not believe the Gospel just to repeat a prayer. I've also wondered about some of my own witnessing and being able to get young people to go along with me to repeat a prayer after me after some leading questions and some scripture verses when I was young. I wonder how many true conversations came of it. Seeds sown, yes, but I don't know if anyone was truly converted.

Such things as you describe, I too would have a problem with. I've often said that salvation is more than just repeating a prayer that likely had no meaning to the one speaking. I describe salvation as surrender. Surrender of my current life into the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. No longer to live my life as I want but to live a new life because of my resurrection and oneness with Christ.

What I have a problem with is that because of your personal experience you have accused an entire group of people of teaching wrongly. I'm sorry that you have had some bad experiences but it was only the fault of the individual and not everyone who calls themselves Evangelicals. Your experience has been the opposite of mine. I have learned and grown more in the Evangelical Church than I ever did in the Baptist. Again, nothing against Baptists either.

 

[mailmandan]

I think a little distinction is in order here.
It is true that the Gospel is never presented as 'having a personal relationship' in Scripture, but we can't deny that it is the result of believing the Gospel, (1Cor 15:1-4) and receiving the Holy Spirit. The resulting New Birth begins that 'personal relationship'.

Much of the overemphasis on a personal relationship is a pushback to Churchianity, where the faith is reduced to memorizing creeds, proper liturgies and a sermon on Sunday and 'we'll see you next week?'

Amen! The Gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To "believe" the Gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and not merely believe that His death, burial and resurrection "happened." The Gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish (including water baptism) as a prerequisite for salvation. Then as you said, the resulting New Birth begins that personal relationship. John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.

 

[presidente]

Such things as you describe, I too would have a problem with. I've often said that salvation is more than just repeating a prayer that likely had no meaning to the one speaking. I describe salvation as surrender. Surrender of my current life into the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. No longer to live my life as I want but to live a new life because of my resurrection and oneness with Christ.

What I have a problem with is that because of your personal experience you have accused an entire group of people of teaching wrongly. I'm sorry that you have had some bad experiences but it was only the fault of the individual and not everyone who calls themselves Evangelicals. Your experience has been the opposite of mine. I have learned and grown more in the Evangelical Church than I ever did in the Baptist. Again, nothing against Baptists either.

Baptists are Evangelicals. Pentecostals are Evangelicals. Wesleyans are Evangelicals. Nazarenes are Evangelicals.

I'm glad if you hear the Gospel at church. Some churches teach the Gospel. Not everyone fits the description in my OP, and that's good. It's still an issue, though, in many churches and ministries.

 

[shotgunner]

Baptists are Evangelicals. Pentecostals are Evangelicals. Wesleyans are Evangelicals. Nazarenes are Evangelicals.

I'm glad if you hear the Gospel at church. Some churches teach the Gospel. Not everyone fits the description in my OP, and that's good. It's still an issue, though, in many churches and ministries.

Do you have a group in mind that you feel are doing a better job of presenting the Gospel?

Also what do you consider the Gospel? I take it from your previous posts that you mean death ,burial, and resurrection. How do you reconcile this verse with that view?
Galatians 3:8King James Version (KJV)[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[presidente]

Do you have a group in mind that you feel are doing a better job of presenting the Gospel?

I've pretty much stayed within the evangelical movement. Some are better at presenting the Gospel than others. Plenty of respected pastors will leave out the kind of stuff the apostles preached and emphasized, and spend time on the stuff that modern evangelicals have come to emphasize. There are those who stick with what the Bible teaches as well. I can't say this denomination is better than that because in my experience I've seen a mixed bag.

Also what do you consider the Gospel? I take it from your previous posts that you mean death ,burial, and resurrection. How do you reconcile this verse with that view?
Galatians 3:8King James Version (KJV)[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

shotgunner,

The promise of God blessing the nations in Abraham is a prophecy about Christ.

 

[notuptome]

Since so many evangelicals hear that the Gospel is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and asking Him to come into their heart, I think a lot of them believe that that is the Gospel.

Sounds more like the neo evangelicals. The relationship is about discipleship not the gospel which is about salvation. Reconciliation is necessary before you can have a relationship with God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Kefa54]

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me.

I don't see Catholic branches, Baptist branches, Evangelical branches, etc. These are just man made divisions. The denominations are just man made divisions. We just choose to worship in that part of the division. Allot of energy here being wasted on man made denominations.

Kefa

 

[shotgunner]

Also what do you consider the Gospel? I take it from your previous posts that you mean death ,burial, and resurrection. How do you reconcile this verse with that view?
Galatians 3:8King James Version (KJV)[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. shotgunner,

The promise of God blessing the nations in Abraham is a prophecy about Christ.

Yes, I can agree with that. I was pointing to a possible different definition of the Gospel. The Gospel is the good news. The good news is that through the death burial and resurrection of Christ all nations are blessed.

I suppose I'm just not so strict on the definition of what the Gospel is. I could say that through Christ all nations are blessed is the Gospel. Yes, I would want to teach how that was accomplished through the cross but I see one as leading to the other and not separate.


I would have a problem with anyone who did not want to teach the death, burial and resurrection but I've never seen that as the case, so I don't have any problem with the teaching of a personal relationship with Jesus. I see it all as the complete package.

 

[wattie]

One thing that miffs me a bit that goes on quite a bit on this forum is demeaning the sinner's prayer.

So.. okay if you are full blown calvinist I get you don't believe that you even need to ask for salvation..

But for everyone who believes it is a call for eternal salvation from being convicted by the Holy Spirit..

How is Romans 10... NOT a 'sinner's prayer'?

How is the 'whosoever believeth' verses.. not 'sinner's prayers'?

Yes.. 'I stand at the door and knock..' verse in Revelation isn't about receiving eternal life.. but is in the context of local churches..

And yes.. just repeating words back to the evangelist ain't it.
And yes.. it could be un-genuine.

But surely a heartfelt prayer out of conviction to call for eternal salvation.. counts!!

Quit demeaning the sinners prayer people!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[presidente]

I'm not a Rick Warren basher, but this video shows a little of the sort of thing I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAcegtdWCRA

I'm not saying what he is sharing is bad. In this video, he just doesn't preach and emphasize certain essential things we see in Paul's writings and Peter and Paul's preaching, here.

This may be a clearer example. Admittedly, I don't know what the man said before this closing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytgHiDtQTc8

 

[presidente]

One thing that miffs me a bit that goes on quite a bit on this forum is demeaning the sinner's prayer.

So.. okay if you are full blown calvinist I get you don't believe that you even need to ask for salvation..

But for everyone who believes it is a call for eternal salvation from being convicted by the Holy Spirit..

How is Romans 10... NOT a 'sinner's prayer'?

How is the 'whosoever believeth' verses.. not 'sinner's prayers'?

Yes.. 'I stand at the door and knock..' verse in Revelation isn't about receiving eternal life.. but is in the context of local churches..

And yes.. just repeating words back to the evangelist ain't it.
And yes.. it could be un-genuine.

But surely a heartfelt prayer out of conviction to call for eternal salvation.. counts!!

Quit demeaning the sinners prayer people!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is Romans 10:9-10 a "sinner's prayer". Well, no. It doesn't mention praying those things. I suppose you can, but that's not the topic. Some preacher's base their sinner's prayer on this verse. But some don't. Some don't base it on any verse. They talk about asking Jesus into your heart, or a personal relationship.

Here are some of my concerns about the beliefs associated with the "sinner's prayer".

- Some people seem to think if you pray a prayer without explaining the Gospel, either before or during the prayer, repeating the prayer saves.

- Some people seem to think that if you have never prayed that prayer, you aren't saved. I've actually heard this from the pulpit. Just think of all the apostles, prophets, and preachers throughout history that would be in Hell before 1950 or so when the practice of repeating the prayer originated.

- Many evangelicals have substituted water baptism with the sinner's prayer.

One of my main concerns is when people will declare someone saved for nodding their head and following along with a presentation and repeating a prayer.

 

[wattie]

Is Romans 10:9-10 a "sinner's prayer". Well, no. It doesn't mention praying those things. I suppose you can, but that's not the topic. Some preacher's base their sinner's prayer on this verse. But some don't. Some don't base it on any verse. They talk about asking Jesus into your heart, or a personal relationship.

Here are some of my concerns about the beliefs associated with the "sinner's prayer".

- Some people seem to think if you pray a prayer without explaining the Gospel, either before or during the prayer, repeating the prayer saves.

- Some people seem to think that if you have never prayed that prayer, you aren't saved. I've actually heard this from the pulpit. Just think of all the apostles, prophets, and preachers throughout history that would be in Hell before 1950 or so when the practice of repeating the prayer originated.

- Many evangelicals have substituted water baptism with the sinner's prayer.

One of my main concerns is when people will declare someone saved for nodding their head and following along with a presentation and repeating a prayer.

I get that.

I encountered people who when we were sharing the gospel with people at a beach in the holidays.. who were telling the people in the public just to say Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...

And that was salvation.

That is a complete mockery!

Enemies of the cross in that one.

A prayer tho.. isn't closing your eyes.. sitting down, clasping your hands etc..

It's just talking to God.

So.. Romans 10.. then surely can be a sinner's prayer.

So can all the other verses about believing for eternal life.

The teaching that salvation is through calling for eternal salvation from Jesus is all thru the bible. I am saying, don't deny that!

 

[Elysian]

If your doctrine and your churches doctrine doesn't quite line up with scripture, then your doctrine needs to change. Even though I was raised Evangelical, I have to admit that Evangelical presentations of the Gospel often don't sound that much like presentations of the Gospel in the Bible.

Here is stuff you hear Evangelicals say,
1 It's a relationship not a religion.
---When their Bible speaks of 'pure religion' in James 1. Unbelievers don't know our unique definitions of words like 'religion' so we shouldn't bog down our presentations of the Gospel with them.

2. It's all about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
---Jesus probably grew up with some folks who had personal relationships with Him who didn't believe the Gospel. The people in Nazareth knew him. Judas Iscariot had a personal relationship with Him, but Judas was lost.
---The apostles never present the Gospel as being about having a 'personal relationship with Jesus Christ.'
---Why should we think that the Hindu who wants to put a statue of Jesus on the shelf, the New Ager who wants a spirit guide, or the Muslim who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God or that He rose from the dead, who repeats a prayer to 'accept Jesus' so he can have a personal relationship.... is saved?

3. The Bible does not teach you get saved by repeating a prayer.
--I saw a video made by an author who explained the 'sinner's prayer' ritual was popularized only in the 1950's, taken from a way to get people who were ready to make a profession of faith after a counselor went through the Bible with them and talked with them about their faith.
--Repeating a prayer doesn't save you. Saying it without faith won't save you. Asking people to repeat a prayer without explaining the Gospel to them first doesn't make any sense at all, though it seems to be the norm in many pulpits throughout the land.

4. The Bible does not teach that you get saved by 'asking Jesus into your heart.'
---Check it out. It's not there. Even 'behold I stand at the door and knock' is addressed to a church, not the unbeliever. And it doesn't mention Jesus coming into anyone's heart.
--- here is no reason to think that the verse that says, "But to as many as received Him..." refers to the modern evangelical ritual of repeating a prayer after a preacher, which hadn't even been in the first century.

5. The apostles preached Christ, the cross and the resurrection.
---One cannot claim the promise of salvation based on I Corinthians 15:1-4 if he doesn't believe that Jesus died for His sins and rose from the dead. One cannot claim the promise of salvation found in Romans 10:9-10 if he doesn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

---So why do so many preachers NOT tell sinners that Jesus died for their sins and rose again from the dead, but instead talk about having a 'personal relationship' and repeating a sinner's prayer. Some mention the cross and not the resurrection. Believing that Jesus died on the cross isn't enough to save you. Caiaphas believed that Jesus died on the cross. Plenty of pagan Romans believed that Jesus died on the cross. Plenty of atheists believe that Jesus died on the cross.

6. Our salvation is tied up with our faith that God raised Jesus from the dead.
---If Jesus hadn't risen, we would still be dead in our sins.

I have a personal relationship with my barber.

 

[Elysian]

I have a personal relationship with my barber.

The same points in the above post caused my to change churches a while back.Unfortunately the new age has well and truly crept into most of today's Laodicean churches,which is no wonder considering the ''bibles'' they preach from.

 

[notuptome]

Is Romans 10:9-10 a "sinner's prayer". Well, no. It doesn't mention praying those things. I suppose you can, but that's not the topic. Some preacher's base their sinner's prayer on this verse. But some don't. Some don't base it on any verse. They talk about asking Jesus into your heart, or a personal relationship.

Would seem to me that a prayer is appropriate when seeking forgiveness of your sin and eternal life.

Here are some of my concerns about the beliefs associated with the "sinner's prayer".

- Some people seem to think if you pray a prayer without explaining the Gospel, either before or during the prayer, repeating the prayer saves.

Could be an insight into the source of the prayer.

- Some people seem to think that if you have never prayed that prayer, you aren't saved. I've actually heard this from the pulpit. Just think of all the apostles, prophets, and preachers throughout history that would be in Hell before 1950 or so when the practice of repeating the prayer originated.

Seems a bit unfair to make such an accusation.

- Many evangelicals have substituted water baptism with the sinner's prayer.

No difficult to see how this is wrong but the baptism part is quite widespread.

One of my main concerns is when people will declare someone saved for nodding their head and following along with a presentation and repeating a prayer.

Here is where we find the source of the so called conversions. It is with men and not with God.

It has been my experience that when God is moving in a sinners heart you do not need to tell him what to pray but the he or she will ask if they can pray to be saved. In fact sinners will pray what is on their heart with little or no prompting when they are under Holy Spirit conviction and they are ready to do business with God over their sin.

The marvelous simplicity of the gospel may leave some with doubts later on as Satan will tempt and test them but with a little reassurance from Gods word they win the victory and rejoice in what Christ has done in and for them.

A biblical presentation of the gospel and follow up bible discipleship is essential in evangelism and church growth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shotgunner]

It's all about calling out to Jesus because you have decided that you need him to save you. That's it! There is no precise formula. All that's necessary if for the person calling on Jesus to truly want Jesus and have faith that Jesus can and will save him. There are no precise words that need to be spoken either by the one seeking salvation or by the one preaching Jesus as the answer.

 

[Jackson123]

Water baptism not guaranty you save.

It only ritual, The thief on the cross accept Jesus, then go to paradise.

No ritual involve. He is not a member of formal church at all.

Religion not save, Only Jesus save us.