Healing through the Son

[BenFTW]

You're still doing the passive-aggressive bullying thing.

Really? Angela might say only the apostles heal?

Should I start saying things like, "Ben might say the moon is made out of cheeses, but..."? Did Angela EVER say "only the apostles heel?" No! So why did you say that? Because that's what passive-aggressives do. They take a lie and bundle it in sugary sweetness to make people think they're being caring and kind. No. Even in sugar a lie is a lie. (BTW, from now on, every time you use that tactic I'm going to start saying, "You might say the moon is made out of cheese," to see how much you like being on the receiving end of passive-aggressive.)

And what else do passive-aggressives do? In this thread, (and other threads from the WoF marketers) they ignore my post asking why Jesus only saved one man at the pool of Bethesda? Simple reasons why it is always ignored.
1. It doesn't fit your narrative.
2. It doesn't fit your marketing.
3. You have no answer, because you don't look deeply enough to see the real God.

Clue: The more you pump your religion (which is not Christianity) on this site, the more ground you're losing for it.

I begin to question Angela's intentions when she likes posts like this that are so far out of left field, just because its against me.

 

[BenFTW]

Mostly what you don't do is answer questions about Bible examples that disprove the theories you try to pass of as Bible truth. I'm beginning to understand why some seem impatient with you.

Give me the theory, and the example that contradicts it Didymous. Let me preface this by saying that showing an example of someone being sick does not contradict what I have been putting forth, and experience does not trump the truth of God's word. We do not base the spiritual truths of God's word by the experience of men, who are not perfect.

Taking a little wine for one's stomach for example, is not an example that disproves that healing is made available through Christ. It shows that God through the means of His providence has in His foreknowledge granted mankind the materials that the body would use to heal itself. A natural solution is still provided by God, just as a supernatural one is.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Oh for goodness sake, WHY do people get their knickers in a knot just because someone puts a like on someone else's post? So what if Angela liked on it? Doesn't necessarily mean she did it, because it's "against you" as you put it.

I begin to question Angela's intentions when she likes posts like this that are so far out of left field, just because its against me.

 

[UnderGrace]

Well you see Ben, if healing is part of the atonement then it is received just like forgiveness/new spiritual life, yet I have no knowledge where Paul teaches this?

Since salvation is a gift, then by necessity healing being part of the package of the gift, must present and a done deal like salvation is a done deal.

However, you separate out healing from the gift and say it is "only available" to those who believe it is real, of course this is done by the necessity because reality does not bear witness to the truth of this belief.

When healing does not happen, there is an escape route, which is.... the person did not have the right/complete/sufficient belief

Yet the person had the right belief to be saved...... so then God is holding back, He did save/forgive them but does not heal them?

This "healing in the atonement" is almost like one of those little hidden mysteries that abound in esoteric schools of thought.

The way I see it you cannot have it both ways,

I think this is the crux of the argument. When it is said that healing is in the atonement people are understanding it as something that happens automatically like the forgiveness of sins, but no one is saying that. We aren't saying that a person comes to faith in Jesus Christ and immediately just as their sins are forgiven them they are in perfect health. What I am saying is that God, the Father has made healing available through Christ, to glorify the Son. It confirms His Lordship, especially is the case when using the name of Jesus.

 

[FlyingDove]

Communion = good news for the sick and unworthy

What is the most intimate act between a man & a woman? Answer intercourse: Gen 2:24, Mk 10:8 even 1 Cor 6:16 the two become one flesh.

KJV Dictionary Definition: COMMUNION, n.

1. Fellowship; intercourse between two persons or more; interchange of transactions, or offices; a state of giving and receiving; agreement; concord.

2. Mutual intercourse or union in religious worship, or in doctrine and discipline.

(NOTE: Fellowship in Christ is an act of intimacy, prayer with God is even more intimate, communion is our ultimate act act of intimacy with God)

Parsing 1 Corinthians 11:20-34: Why, How, Unworthily, Discerning

Vs 20 identifies the subject = the Lord's supper.

Vs 21&22 shows how some were partaking unworthily. They came to eat/feast & drink/get drunk

Vs 23-25 explain how to partake

Vs 26 explains Why: to keep remember how Christ gave himself a ranson & died on our place

Vs 27 explains when you don't partake to Remenber the Lords payment. You become guilty of his death, So the party players & even worst, anyone that doesn't know the Lord (hasn't received the seal of the Holy Spirit.

Vs 28 says examine why are you partaking? BTW there is no sin exam for believers. Jesus took ALL your sins

Vs 29 By unworthily: Not taking part according to Christ’s institution. Anyone not saved, those that came to patry & aren't discerning the Lord's death payment & resurrection. Eat & drink condemnation to themselves, or contract guilt, or expose themselves either to chastisement or punishment; because they distinguish not the Lord's supper from an ordinary and common meal. Eternal damnnation isn't meant here.

Vs 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Some were sick, some had died. Why? Because they had sinned in there undiscerning & unworthy partaking? NO! They were sickly & some had passed on. Because, they missed understanding the healh blessing that comes when one righty divides the Word.

Matt 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood """"""""ye have NO LIFE in you""""""""

 

[joaniemarie]

Joan, You may use such an argument if you want - that is your right -
but expect others to spew back that the Spirit is also leading them to post the opposite stuff - they have that right also -

And when you have two sides claiming the Spirit is leading them, it can get downright ugly . . .

I suggest we stick to a discussion of what the Scriptures say rather than appealing to "the Spirit".

Say What???? so we should just study the Scriptures rather than appeal to the Holy Spirit? Good grief man! "Holy Spirit., please leave we're studying the Bible here" ....... No no Chester.

Some Christians never leave the 4 walls of their own churches or Bible studies or homes to know that there are millions of other Born again Christians in the world who don't agree 100% about every topic in the Bible. Those are usually the Christians who fight and get angry with others.

But those who do know other believers who are not exactly the same as they are will; show brotherly LOVE and respect for one another and talk and reason together despite some doctrinal differences. They know the Holy Spirit is more than able to guide and teach and comfort and lead each believer into all truth in time. They trust the Holy Spirit to use the Scriptures and to bring about understanding in the revelation of Christ because He did it with and for them.

This means there are millions of brothers and sisters in Christ who speak in tongues and who don't speak in tongues... who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit... who have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit... who have been baptized by immersion... or who have not been baptized by immersion..... who believe in healing in the atonement... who don't believe in healing in the atonement. The list goes on....

Each believer has to be thoroughly convinced in our own minds by the witness of the Holy Spirit in them concerning these and many more Bible interpretations. Having a close relationship with the Holy Spirit and a familiarity with the Bible. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God AS the Holy Spirit Who IS the TEACHER does His job in us; John 7:38

[SUP]38 [/SUP]He who believes in Me [who cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me] as the Scripture has said, From his innermost being shall flow [continuously] springs and rivers of living water.


Or be tossed all over the place by stronger personalities in the church who bully and intend to demean. Be able to stand on the Word of God by the witness of the Holy Spirit working in you no matter who comes at you to tell you otherwise.

As was posted before and something we should each be doing as Christians;

Romans 12:2

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].

 

[Angela53510]

Angela., I can appreciate your ideas on the texts and greek swirly do dads it's all very nice. But I've learned there is more to the text than meets the eye. When I read the Bible it's not seen the same way you do. For all you just wrote that is not how I read the chapters and verses. When I'm asking the Holy Spirit to lead me to where I need to be in understanding the application it's not done the way you do it Angela.


In Romans 12:2 [SUP]2 [/SUP]Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].

This has everything to do with how to see the Bible and the world for that matter and our relation to them. We have to see it by the new creation we are made In Christ. Not according to our old manner of living and seeing. We daily have to be transformed by the renewing of our minds so we ARE ABLE TO PROVE what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
These verses are 100% applicable to the subject at hand here. I don't see how you miss it Angela.



The Holy Spirit often shows me more than what is in the exact text about healing or about the the fruits of the Spirit or any subject for that matter. I'll read something in the morning and while reading something totally different in the evening., He will bring to my mind the Bible reading from the morning or even from the week before. He does this when we allow Him to teach us and lead us into the truth. His truth for us as we are learning about Jesus. Not our truth from our limited resources.

He always brings to the forefront of what I'm reading lovely principles about JESUS and His love and grace and how that is the way to interpret a text for my personal study.

Looking into the Word of God these days my goal is to SEE JESUS. And the Holy Spirit has taught me that amazing truth because it was not taught to me in the many years of being a Christian before learning to let the Holy Spirit teach me.

AND how amazing is this TRUTH that we all have Him and when we need to know what to do and how to interpret the Bible each time we read it. It's not always by formal teaching or someone else needing to teach us. Some things we must learn one on One when we are alone before the Word with the Spirit ministering to our spirit.

1 John 2:27
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [[SUP][a][/SUP]permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being [SUP][b][/SUP]rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].


There comes a time when we need to allow the Holy Spirit free reign to show us the applications to our inner man as we walk out our faith. The goal has to always be to see Jesus and interpret each verse getting a better focus on Jesus and then that shows us who we are.

I posted this already and used the body of the letter to say the same thing to you Angela. It's not my fault you experienced hurt feelings in your Christian life. Or that your friends went through hard times concerning faith and living. Quit blaming people who have nothing whatsoever to do with your past and trying to squeeze retribution from each of us. Life doesn't work that way Angela.

It's ridiculous and immature to engage in the blame game especially at this age of our lives. Many of the people who hurt us or hurt with us have long since passed away or moved on in their lives and they each had their own issues to deal with before the Lord. Both in your life and in mine. All of us have some story in life to tell but we don't have the right to blame people here.

First let me say this again to you and anyone else who reads this., I never said people are not healed because they don't have enough faith. Nope.., never said it and I keep "clarifying" it over and over but to no avail.

You have not read my posts. You read into my posts. New extra Biblical revelations? Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? I should hope when we each read the Bible the Holy Spirit reveals things to us personally that we need to know. Prayers we pray that are personal and answered are extra Biblical?

I seek to engage in conversation with people here all the time and only by pass certain people when they insult and misrepresent me personally coming up with all kinds of suppositions along with personal suspicions and guesses and conspiracy theories. Wacky ones at that.

All because I don't believe the same as you do Angela... it must mean I'm not a Christian, or I'm a wolf., a heretic .,or evil., or passive aggressive.. or prosperity gospel person., hyper this and hyper that., or antinomianism-ist LOL what's next on this wacky long list of yours? My sharing with you is always in hopes of coming to some Christian commonalities but only seems to keep giving place to your continued childish blame games and name calling.

Grow up Angela and realize the whole world doesn't agree with you on all points..., or read the Bible the same way you do. It's time to GROW UP and quit your hissyfitting responses when someone like me posts here.

If you don't like my posts don't read them Angela. If your sensibilities are that 'tender' and that 'delicate' that you can't handle it when another Christian woman disagrees with you ...than something is wrong with you Angela and other grown up Christians like you.

Grown ups learn to deal with other people in their lives and in the world they live in. (and on Christian chat sites) Not everyone will agree with us on all aspects of life even when we have learned differently about major topics that impact our very daily lives. Even when our life's experiences have made us who we are today... not everyone will see life the way we do. That's a fact. Most often people really don't care what our experiences are Angela. They were not there.

It's true...not everyone is going to agree with us... really.., seriously... it's a fact of life... not all will agree or even appreciate our experiences or opinions .. it's a fact in the adult responsibility world unless we are immature self important spoiled brats who no one ever dared disagree with before.

But sad to say many here are big old babies who must demean and 'shut down' anyone who doesn't make them feel good by agreeing with them and appreciating their experiences in life.

Reminds me of the kids on America's liberal colleges who need their "safe spaces" with stuffed animals and hot chocolate and some comfort pets. I say to you and to others who can't stand to hear other Christians talk about and share their faith... Grow up. Wake up and smell the coffee!

You quote Romans 12:1-2 and give it a wrong interpretation. You work “healing” into it. So, I spend a hour looking at each word in the Greek, reading 5 commentaries to see if you have a leg to stand on, and NO you are completely off base.

The reason I did this, is because these verses are among my favourite in the Bible, I didn’t want to miss anything. Well, I did miss a lot, like it points to Christian ethics and application. Which was an exciting discovery for me! I love it when God shows me something more about a passage that he has already quicken to my heart. I even preached on this passage once.

Then I ask you to discuss the passage with me. Exegete it, and show me how you got healing out of it. I read a lot Greek Exegetrical Commentaries, and all through the spectrum to simple English, and no one even intimated at this interpretation of yours.

Then you come back with this.

“When I'm asking the Holy Spirit to lead me to where I need to be in understanding the application it's not done the way you do it Angela.”

“There comes a time when we need to allow the Holy Spirit free reign to show us the applications to our inner man as we walk out our faith.”

What?? What does this have to do with how you read the Bible correctly? It is the biggest cop out I know.

I say x, using 10 verses, Greek and Hebrew to support my view. You are welcome to do the same, if you disagree with me. Some one did that about my exegetics on the thread about women pastors. I was so excited, I gave him a “like” and told him I would get back to him. (Which I must do, I’ve just been super busy with German.)

I want to DISCUSS the BIBLE! I love it! And discussing properly leads to us all learning and growing. Because, whether you like it or not, words have meaning. God wrote the WORDS for a reason. So we would understand his plans and purposes.

So, when God writes about “being a living sacrifice of our bodies” in Romans 12:1 and that we need to be “tranformed by the renewing of our minds” in Romans 12:2, it has a specific meaning. And that meaning is not healing. But, we can’t discuss what you meant, because you either post another copy and paste, or say the Holy Spirit told you so!

Instead, I get this arrogant, self-righteous comment, that you are being led by the Holy Spirit and that is what he personally told you. I could do that, too! I could say the Holy Spirit told me that this following passage was NOT about healing.

“[FONT=&quot][/FONT]And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.” Matt 14:14[FONT=&quot]

Now, if I said it was not about healing, I would be guilty of one of two things.

1. Point blank lying, because it is obviously about Jesus healing!
2. Stupidity or ignorance. Maybe I don’t understand English, or don’t understand about Jesus healing the sick in the Bible, or maybe I don’t believe in anything supernatural. I understand Thomas Jefferson cut out every miracle and supernatural thing in his Bible. Now that is the definition of stupid!

But, you have set yourself up as above the definitions and words of the Bible, to saying “the Holy Spirit has led me to....”. Well, no, that is just wrong! The Holy Spirit will never show your something that is not there. Or lead you astray!

And that is why I am NOT going to let you get away with posting this nonsense and setting yourself up as a false prophet, when you are blaspheming or taking the works of the Holy Spirit in vain. That is the definition of blasphemy. Attributing something to the Holy Spirit he did not say.

It is also the definition of delusional. I hate to break it to you, but the Holy Spirit speaks to us all. But he never, ever tells us something that is contrary to Scripture, or something that is not right.

So, no, you are not a prophet of God, getting divine revelations, about something God has not said in those words. When God told me he is going to transform me, he showed me the rest of the verse, told me to seek his will. And that it would never be something different than what was in the passage.

This is NOT just a slight difference of opinion, it is you ravaging the text. It is about your making up stuff, ALL THE TIME, and then claiming the Holy Spirit told you so.

I don’t know if you are a liar or ignorant. But I do know you were totally wrong with how you interpreted Romans 12:1-2, and you have nothing to say but “a little birdie” told me.

As for me, being condemned and judged by Word Faith people so badly, I turned from God for 2 years, (a lot more than a little hurt!) I am long since over it. I use that personal example so people can understand how AWFUL Word Faith is, and how damaging it is. And I use the example of my friend with breast cancer who named and claimed it, and died, because I want to warn people how truly damaging and destructive this Word Faith doctrine is.

I am long since over the past, and what this heresy did to me. What I am concerned about, is that people who don’t know anything more than you do about how to interpret the Bible, getting sucked into this absolute unbiblcal garbage.

And if that is insulting you, it is only because you are the one who keeps posting all these UNhelpful blogs/videos/opinions which are not based on the Bible, but eisgesis, and lies! When Bruce was first here, posting links to Paul Ellis’ site, I went there immediately. I read 3 or 4 of Ellis’ articles, and realized he knew nothing about the Bible, and nothing about how to correctly interpret the Bible. And it is NOT by saying “The Holy Spirit led me.”

People have died, and have continued to physically die because someone told them healing is in the atonement, and they just need to believe. Nowadays, that is “waiting for a manifestation” as even the Word Faith teachers are getting tired of people asking them why they or their loved ones were not healed.

As for evil, I don’t think YOU are evil, just badly deluded. I think you sincerely believe all this nonsense. But, as long as you are posting stuff that is just wrong, which is pretty much every post, I will counter it.

This is not about whether we should all take a walk in the park today! It is about a very wrong and dangerous doctrine of demons. It is about you with your haughty nose in the air, claiming God has given you a special vision, when he has not. It is about you and your gurus twisting the Bible.

As for me being some kind of millennial student, I think not! It is hilarious really, that is the worst insult you could think to post. If I was like that, I wouldn’t spend most of my in the BDF, calling people like you out.

And yes, I read all your posts that you write. Like this one! But I am not interested in the false prophets and teachers you post, so no, I won’t be reading them. Repost them all you want, which by the way, is NOT clarifying. Write in your own words, and I am sure many people will read your posts, and we can have some decent discussions. As it is, no one cares what your gurus have to say. We’re all sick and tired of them.

As for not saying “you don’t have the faith to be healed” I never said you have said that. Nope, you say, “not yet manifested” or need to seek God deeper or something similar. The implication is there. Really, the implication is there when you try to show healing is in the atonement, Finally, I do get tired of your constant drivel that you are MORE led by the Holy Spirit, and therefore, have more knowledge than the rest of us “book sloggers.” The legalists who believe the written word, over a word from the Holy Spirit via you. When you account things to the Holy Spirit that are wrong, that is blasphemy. If you have a better word for saying you am delusional about what the Holy Spirit says to you, feel free to post it.

Two things before I end this post:
1. Stop using the amplified or whatever Bible you are using with all the square brackets. Make it legible for all to read. I know Henry Blackaby, a great man of God, used the Amplified. I bought one and got burned out the first week reading all the extra meanings.

2. Post links. For one thing it is plagiarism. For another, it is deceiving people into think you wrote it. It really is evil in this world, to post the intellectual property of someone else and claim it as your own, because you have not linked it. So simple, really. If you can copy and paste the article, surely you can spend the time copy and pasting the link?

[/FONT]

 

[joaniemarie]

Gal.5:13-26
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For you, brethren, were [indeed] called to freedom; only [do not let your] freedom be an incentive to your flesh and an opportunity or excuse [for [SUP][d][/SUP]selfishness], but through love you should serve one another.
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]For the whole Law [concerning human relationships] is [SUP][e][/SUP]complied with in the one precept, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself.
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another [in partisan strife], be careful that you [and your whole fellowship] are not consumed by one another.
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.
[SUP]
19 [/SUP]Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
[SUP]
20 [/SUP]Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
[SUP]
21 [/SUP]Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]
22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
[SUP]
23 [/SUP]Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[SUP][f][/SUP]that can bring a charge].
[SUP]
24 [/SUP]And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.
[SUP]
25 [/SUP]If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit [SUP][g][/SUP]we have our life in God, let us go forward [SUP][h][/SUP]walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]
[SUP]
26 [/SUP]Let us not become vainglorious and self-conceited, competitive and challenging and provoking andirritating to one another, envying and being jealous of one another.

 

[joaniemarie]

This is another amazing truth about seeing Jesus when we are trying to understand the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit always shows us Jesus.

It takes the Holy Spirit to show us the truth of who Jesus is., and to see who God the Father is. When we see God through the old covenant mindset there is a veil over our eyes. It was true for me as a Christian. Never heard of new covenant Christians trying to live under the old covenant and ended up spinning their wheels sort of speak. I figured the requirements were all the same but they are not. Covenants are all different. And today we live under the covenant of grace not works.


John 5:39-40 is Jesus speaking to the Jews that rejected Him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me!
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And still you are not willing [but refuse] to come to Me, so that you might have life.
We can make the scriptures "God" When I say that - it is really our "interpretation" of the scriptures that we make to be a "god" in our own mind. Without the Holy Spirit's revelation to show us Christ - we are at the mercy of our own religious un-renewed minds.

The Bible is not a roadmap or instruction manual in a"completed" sense. The Bible is NOT God - God breathed - inspired - YES!
But the Bible is a book about Jesus. The Bible is not an end to itself - the Bible speaks of Jesus. He is the true reality that the scriptures speak off ( This is why there is so much controversy on the Sabbath Day issue )

Jesus said "...you search the scriptures because you think ( human reasoning ) "in them" you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." John 5:39-40

Reading the Bible without wanting to know and see Jesus and the Father for whom they truly are is like reading someone else's love letters. You might learn a few things about love but this will not move you toward the one who wrote the letters.

Some people get confused because they think the Bible has all the answers - it does not. It does however point us to the One who "is"the answer! James never said - "If anyone lacks wisdom you should study the Bible - He said - you should ask God Himself. James 1:5 ( God may use a verse in the scriptures or a word from another teacher...etc )

God surely speaks to us through the Bible but if the Bible doesn't lead you to the revelation of the One called Wisdom - you will be no wiser than a Pharisee. If we look for Jesus - the Holy Spirit will reveal Him in the Old Testament.

A mis-guided ( albeit maybe a well intentioned ) teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to tell you what you should do, but a grace/Christ oriented teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to show you what Jesus has done and who you are in Him now because we are in Christ and He is in us. The Holy Spirit in us teaches/guides/reveals to us Jesus and the Father's true character and finished work.

Read the scriptures with the view to "see" Jesus. In Him we see the heart and will of the Father being manifested on this earth. The best translation of the Bible is Jesus!

He is the "living word" within the written word and He is flawless and free of translation errors. All of man's translations have biases and inaccuracies. Sometimes translators give their "doctrinal beliefs" when translating a verse or word.

The scriptures teach us that we are not living by the teaching of the Bible per se - we are living by the life of Christ in us. The source of our life is not the Bible - the source of our life is the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father.

In the Old Testament when it refers to "the word of God" and the life it brings - it was in reality talking about "the living word of God" ( Jesus Himself ) - of which the scriptures are a "shadow" of the real substance - Jesus. ( another reason why strict Sabbath Keepers cannot see Christ as our true Sabbath rest now in the New Covenant - they are stuck in the shadow and think that it is the real )

The Bible shows us the ways Jesus Christ wants to express His life through us to a hurt and dying world. In Him we live, move and have our being. The Bible leads us to the source of life = Jesus Himself.

The Bible is NOT God but we can make our own interpretations of the Bible to be our "god" in our own un-renewed minds. The Holy Spirit has come in us to show us the things "of Christ" and reveal them to us - His beloved children.
Unquote


Seeing Jesus shows us how to interpret this verse about Paul's thorn in the flesh. Jesus never put sickness on anyone nor did He teach anyone that way. It was a messenger of satan who had a bunch rotten people following Paul around being a pain in the behind. Each time Paul taught in an assembly and left to teach in other places., these same people came and sought to confuse the brethren. It was a major thorn in Paul's flesh.

This also makes it clear that in Acts 5 about Ananias and Sapphira were not believers because Jesus isn't about killing His sheep He's about protecting His sheep. I see Jesus. That is why I know without a doubt how to interpret these Scriptures and I'm not alone. And how I can stand firm in my own understanding of these issues when there are differing views on it. I have a confidence in Jesus love for me and know He doesn't kill off His sheep. It's the devil who comes to kill...steal..and destroy. Jesus came to give life and that more abundantly.
[/QUOTE]

The Holy Spirit will always show us Jesus. Gal.2:20 [SUP]20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Jesus is perfect theology.

 

[Didymous]

Give me the theory, and the example that contradicts it Didymous. Let me preface this by saying that showing an example of someone being sick does not contradict what I have been putting forth, and experience does not trump the truth of God's word. We do not base the spiritual truths of God's word by the experience of men, who are not perfect.

Taking a little wine for one's stomach for example, is not an example that disproves that healing is made available through Christ. It shows that God through the means of His providence has in His foreknowledge granted mankind the materials that the body would use to heal itself. A natural solution is still provided by God, just as a supernatural one is.

Actually, Ben, I wasn't directing that to you,but to JoanieMarie. You seem to try harder to make your points , and I respect that. You also don't seem to post videos to speak for you, at least I don't think so(I haven't tried to read the whole thread, for the sake of my eyesight). I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, but am confused when that someone doesn't try to clarify their point for me.

 

[joaniemarie]

These truths are not only for healing but also for all other things pertaining to life and godliness. Knowing and believing who we are IN Christ is a major factor in walking it out. Healing is just one of many things we have in the atonement.

...................................................................

“What does it mean to walk by the spirit?” Traditionally “the spirit” has been interpreted as meaning the Holy Spirit. To walk by the spirit thus means doing whatever the Holy Spirit tells you.

But if you look at the context of Galatians 4, you will see that Paul was referring to our reborn spirits. Your spirit is one with Christ and is in CONSTANT FELLOWSHIP with the Holy Spirit. So the choice Paul was describing was whether to walk by the limited sensory experience of the flesh, or the unseen reality of our perfectly sanctified spirits.


To live by the spirit means LEARNING to make decisions from our SPIRIT rather than our MINDS. Sometimes we just know things that reason cannot explain because they are spiritually discerned. We sense a prompting to pray for someone only to learn later that it was for them a moment of great need. This is how Adam and Eve lived before the Fall – their thinking was spirit-led rather than flesh-based.


If we understood that our spirits are perfect already (see Heb 10:14), and that we lack nothing (1 Co 1:7), we would spend less time teaching godly character and more time renewing our minds to live by the spirit.

Instead of preaching on faith and sanctification, we would seek to reveal our true identity in Christ. As Ryan says, “The church preaches too much about who we aren’t.” Knowing who you now are and Who lives in you is the key to Christian living. "

.............................................

I agree with what the author Ryan Rufus says in the above except from his book. This is always so helpful to reminded of and to remember it when asking for anything. It's always because of Jesus. The Bible says we are already perfect in Him. Now we walk out that part of us who IS that new creation.

When I chose to listen to the old flesh it leads to confusion and fear. Not so in the new creation that trusts first what the Holy Spirit says about me. Those who have Jesus are Righteous because that is the gift we received that He gave each of us. I can't believe so many mature Christians say this sounds "new age"

John 16:8


And when He comes, He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about SIN and about RIGHTEOUSNESS (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about JUDGEMENT:
[SUP]
9 [/SUP]About sin, because they do not believe in Me [trust in, rely on, and adhere to Me];
[SUP]
10 [/SUP]About righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God), because I go to My Father, and you will see Me no longer;

The Holy Spirit is always reminding the believer of our right standing in Christ. Not about judgment because there is no more judgment or condemnation. All of that was taken care of on the cross when Jesus said it is finished.
[SUP]



11 [/SUP]About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world [Satan] is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them upon you or to grasp them now.
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]He will honor and glorify Me, because He will take of (receive, draw upon) what is Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you.
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]Everything that the Father has is Mine. That is what I meant when I said that He [the Spirit] will take the things that are Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you.

Re posted for clarification. How do we know we are being lead by the Holy Spirit? Our new creation responds to Him and through our born again spirit man we are walking by faith. This is not done through and by the flesh because the flesh CANNOT respond to the Spirit because it is TOTALLY contrary to the Spirit and the things of the Spirit.

We have to walk in the Spirit (abide) or we cannot do anything. When we were born again Jesus didn't make us better versions of our flesh. No., He made us brand new creations in Him. With this NEW CREATION we respond by faith to the HolySpirit It takes walking each day "reckoning" believing .. having faith in what Jesus has done in us. Reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive to God. That is who we are NOW IN Christ. Born again men and woman.

It's our choice what we follow... the dictates of the flesh or the dictates of the Spirit.

 

[UnderGrace]

I had this discussion with G7 once and scripture is abundantly clear that Ananias and Sapphira were believers.

I know Paul Ellis promotes this view.

This line is inflammatory.......

know He doesn't kill off His sheep.

Perhaps this would be the more correct way to present the facts ...

God so loved His fledgling Church, that He needed to take two of His sheep home, so those that His other sheep would not be influenced by His son and daughter that had faltered/lied.

I do hope you will consider this because it really does not take away from the Love of God nor His Grace.

This is another amazing truth about seeing Jesus when we are trying to understand the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit always shows us Jesus.

It takes the Holy Spirit to show us the truth of who Jesus is., and to see who God the Father is. When we see God through the old covenant mindset there is a veil over our eyes. It was true for me as a Christian. Never heard of new covenant Christians trying to live under the old covenant and ended up spinning their wheels sort of speak. I figured the requirements were all the same but they are not. Covenants are all different. And today we live under the covenant of grace not works.


John 5:39-40 is Jesus speaking to the Jews that rejected Him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me!
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And still you are not willing [but refuse] to come to Me, so that you might have life.
We can make the scriptures "God" When I say that - it is really our "interpretation" of the scriptures that we make to be a "god" in our own mind. Without the Holy Spirit's revelation to show us Christ - we are at the mercy of our own religious un-renewed minds.

The Bible is not a roadmap or instruction manual in a"completed" sense. The Bible is NOT God - God breathed - inspired - YES!
But the Bible is a book about Jesus. The Bible is not an end to itself - the Bible speaks of Jesus. He is the true reality that the scriptures speak off ( This is why there is so much controversy on the Sabbath Day issue )

Jesus said "...you search the scriptures because you think ( human reasoning ) "in them" you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." John 5:39-40

Reading the Bible without wanting to know and see Jesus and the Father for whom they truly are is like reading someone else's love letters. You might learn a few things about love but this will not move you toward the one who wrote the letters.

Some people get confused because they think the Bible has all the answers - it does not. It does however point us to the One who "is"the answer! James never said - "If anyone lacks wisdom you should study the Bible - He said - you should ask God Himself. James 1:5 ( God may use a verse in the scriptures or a word from another teacher...etc )

God surely speaks to us through the Bible but if the Bible doesn't lead you to the revelation of the One called Wisdom - you will be no wiser than a Pharisee. If we look for Jesus - the Holy Spirit will reveal Him in the Old Testament.

A mis-guided ( albeit maybe a well intentioned ) teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to tell you what you should do, but a grace/Christ oriented teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to show you what Jesus has done and who you are in Him now because we are in Christ and He is in us. The Holy Spirit in us teaches/guides/reveals to us Jesus and the Father's true character and finished work.

Read the scriptures with the view to "see" Jesus. In Him we see the heart and will of the Father being manifested on this earth. The best translation of the Bible is Jesus!

He is the "living word" within the written word and He is flawless and free of translation errors. All of man's translations have biases and inaccuracies. Sometimes translators give their "doctrinal beliefs" when translating a verse or word.

The scriptures teach us that we are not living by the teaching of the Bible per se - we are living by the life of Christ in us. The source of our life is not the Bible - the source of our life is the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father.

In the Old Testament when it refers to "the word of God" and the life it brings - it was in reality talking about "the living word of God" ( Jesus Himself ) - of which the scriptures are a "shadow" of the real substance - Jesus. ( another reason why strict Sabbath Keepers cannot see Christ as our true Sabbath rest now in the New Covenant - they are stuck in the shadow and think that it is the real )

The Bible shows us the ways Jesus Christ wants to express His life through us to a hurt and dying world. In Him we live, move and have our being. The Bible leads us to the source of life = Jesus Himself.

The Bible is NOT God but we can make our own interpretations of the Bible to be our "god" in our own un-renewed minds. The Holy Spirit has come in us to show us the things "of Christ" and reveal them to us - His beloved children.
Unquote


Seeing Jesus shows us how to interpret this verse about Paul's thorn in the flesh. Jesus never put sickness on anyone nor did He teach anyone that way. It was a messenger of satan who had a bunch rotten people following Paul around being a pain in the behind. Each time Paul taught in an assembly and left to teach in other places., these same people came and sought to confuse the brethren. It was a major thorn in Paul's flesh.

This also makes it clear that in Acts 5 about Ananias and Sapphira were not believers because Jesus isn't about killing His sheep He's about protecting His sheep. I see Jesus. That is why I know without a doubt how to interpret these Scriptures and I'm not alone. And how I can stand firm in my own understanding of these issues when there are differing views on it. I have a confidence in Jesus love for me and know He doesn't kill off His sheep. It's the devil who comes to kill...steal..and destroy. Jesus came to give life and that more abundantly.

The Holy Spirit will always show us Jesus. Gal.2:20 [SUP]20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Jesus is perfect theology.[/QUOTE]

 

[BenFTW]

Oh for goodness sake, WHY do people get their knickers in a knot just because someone puts a like on someone else's post? So what if Angela liked on it? Doesn't necessarily mean she did it, because it's "against you" as you put it.

God knows the heart. If someone posted something that was defamatory towards you, and I liked it, I'm sure that would call into question my integrity in your eyes. Just saying.

 

[joaniemarie]

I had this discussion with G7 once and scripture is abundantly clear that Ananias and Sapphira were believers.

I know Paul Ellis promotes this view.

This line is inflammatory.......



Perhaps this would be the more correct way to present the facts ...

God so loved His fledgling Church, that He needed to take two of His sheep home, so those that His other sheep would not be influenced by His son and daughter that had faltered/lied.

I do hope you will consider this because it really does not take away from the Love of God nor His Grace.




The Holy Spirit will always show us Jesus. Gal.2:20 [SUP]20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Jesus is perfect theology.

[/QUOTE]


I've always believed that A&S were Christians who got in big trouble and God had to zap them in the church. But due to my growing understanding of what the grace of God means to us believers and how the Lord has dealt with me., I no longer conclude they were believers.

Just as that post about the Bible revealing Jesus says above., when we want to see the character of God and how He deals today with us ......we need to look at Jesus. So I always consider Jesus whenever interpreting how the Bible should be understood.

Jesus never zapped anyone. Jesus always healed whoever came to Him. But this is the way I've come to see Jesus and I'm not telling you or anyone how you have to see Jesus. I'm sharing what I've been learning.

Heb.1:1-5



[But] in [SUP][b][/SUP]the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the worlds and the reaches of space and the ages of time [He made, produced, built, operated, and arranged them in order].
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the [SUP][c][/SUP]out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God’s] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. When He had by offering Himself accomplished our cleansing of sins and riddance of guilt, He sat down at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high,

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


1 In many separate revelations [[SUP][a][/SUP]each of which set forth a portion of the Truth] and in different ways God spoke of old to [our] forefathers in and by the prophets,
[SUP]
2 [/SUP][But] in [SUP][b][/SUP]the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the worlds and the reaches of space and the ages of time [He made, produced, built, operated, and arranged them in order].
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the [SUP][c][/SUP]out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God’s] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. When He had by offering Himself accomplished our cleansing of sins and riddance of guilt, He sat down at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high,
[SUP]
4 [/SUP][Taking a place and rank by which] He Himself became as much superior to angels as the glorious Name (title) which He has inherited is different from and more excellent than theirs.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]For to which of the angels did [God] ever say, You are My Son, today I have begotten You [established You in an official Sonship relation, with kingly dignity]? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He will be to Me a Son?

 

[UnderGrace]

Well you would need to show me from the context of the passage that they were not believers.

Again the use of the word "zapped" is inflammatory and unfortunately you see death wrongly since Jesus gave up His own life and died.

In sense He "zapped" Himself, He chose not to come down from the cross, that we see everything from the finished work of the cross and His resurrection, absolutely!!

However, just be careful that in this "Jesus is Perfect Theology" (a book by Bill Johnson btw and I wont even go there) you have a perfect view of who Jesus truly is, as revealed in the scripture before He came and even when He left this earth.


............................................................................................................................


I've always believed that A&S were Christians who got in big trouble and God had to zap them in the church. But due to my growing understanding of what the grace of God means to us believers and how the Lord has dealt with me., I no longer conclude they were believers.

Just as that post about the Bible revealing Jesus says above., when we want to see the character of God and how He deals today with us ......we need to look at Jesus. So I always consider Jesus whenever interpreting how the Bible should be understood.

Jesus never zapped anyone. Jesus always healed whoever came to Him. But this is the way I've come to see Jesus and I'm not telling you or anyone how you have to see Jesus. I'm sharing what I've been learning.

Heb.1:1-5



[But] in [SUP][b][/SUP]the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the worlds and the reaches of space and the ages of time [He made, produced, built, operated, and arranged them in order].
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the [SUP][c][/SUP]out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God’s] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. When He had by offering Himself accomplished our cleansing of sins and riddance of guilt, He sat down at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high,

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


1 In many separate revelations [[SUP][a][/SUP]each of which set forth a portion of the Truth] and in different ways God spoke of old to [our] forefathers in and by the prophets,
[SUP]
2 [/SUP][But] in [SUP][b][/SUP]the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the worlds and the reaches of space and the ages of time [He made, produced, built, operated, and arranged them in order].
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the [SUP][c][/SUP]out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God’s] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. When He had by offering Himself accomplished our cleansing of sins and riddance of guilt, He sat down at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high,
[SUP]
4 [/SUP][Taking a place and rank by which] He Himself became as much superior to angels as the glorious Name (title) which He has inherited is different from and more excellent than theirs.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]For to which of the angels did [God] ever say, You are My Son, today I have begotten You [established You in an official Sonship relation, with kingly dignity]? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He will be to Me a Son?[/QUOTE]

 

[Cee]

Well you see Ben, if healing is part of the atonement then it is received just like forgiveness/new spiritual life, yet I have no knowledge where Paul teaches this?

Since salvation is a gift, then by necessity healing being part of the package of the gift, must present and a done deal like salvation is a done deal.

However, you separate out healing from the gift and say it is "only available" to those who believe it is real, of course this is done by the necessity because reality does not bear witness to the truth of this belief.

When healing does not happen, there is an escape route, which is.... the person did not have the right/complete/sufficient belief

Yet the person had the right belief to be saved...... so then God is holding back, He did save/forgive them but does not heal them?

This "healing in the atonement" is almost like one of those little hidden mysteries that abound in esoteric schools of thought.

The way I see it you cannot have it both ways,

Good topic.

The difference in my mind is this, when someone who believes they are saved, they don't have evidence against their salvation. So they can believe they are saved without any evidence. Many people do. We won't actually find out if they are truly saved in this life. But in regards to healing, there is a continual checking of evidence, and this can invite doubt. Am I healed? Am I not healed? Because doubt is double-mindedness. It is agreeing with God's promises, but then also agreeing with this world that disagrees. It's living back and forth, back and forth. James called it be tossed to and fro. Peter sinking in water is a perfect example of this. Healing unfortunately has this aspect to it. Which is why Jesus said which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven or take up your bed and walk? One required immediate evidence.

And we do see an instance in the Bible when we know it's God's will to heal, but the disciples were unable to do so. So Jesus did it for them. When the disciples came back and asked why couldn't we cast it out? Jesus said, because of your unbelief. Not talking to the little boy, but the one's praying for the boy. These disciples walked with Jesus for 2 years at this point, saw radical miracles constantly, but when faced with this situation were unable to heal him. This in my mind shows us that there is a process of growing in faith. Which my own experience has shown me as well.

I remember a time I prayed for someone who had got acid in his eye, it was super red and swollen. After praying it almost immediately started clearing up. It was so awesome. And the employees in the place where he and I worked were so surprised we discussed Jesus almost all night. I got to share all about Him. And I personally was very impacted because it was such a visible change.

I've also had times where I would pray continually for people, sometimes hours, before I would see any change. But because I believe it IS God's will to heal it gives me the faith to keep pressing in. Because Jesus said if we speak to a mountain in faith it will move. So we are called to speak to our obstacles at times. And sometimes it's persistence. In another parable Jesus said keep on knocking and the door will be answered because of your persistence. Knowing God's heart to see people healed helps fuel me with that persistence to keep going.

 

[Chester]

You quote Romans 12:1-2 and give it a wrong interpretation. You work “healing” into it. So, I spend a hour looking at each word in the Greek, reading 5 commentaries to see if you have a leg to stand on, and NO you are completely off base.

The reason I did this, is because these verses are among my favourite in the Bible, I didn’t want to miss anything. Well, I did miss a lot, like it points to Christian ethics and application. Which was an exciting discovery for me! I love it when God shows me something more about a passage that he has already quicken to my heart. I even preached on this passage once.

Then I ask you to discuss the passage with me. Exegete it, and show me how you got healing out of it. I read a lot Greek Exegetrical Commentaries, and all through the spectrum to simple English, and no one even intimated at this interpretation of yours.

Then you come back with this.

“When I'm asking the Holy Spirit to lead me to where I need to be in understanding the application it's not done the way you do it Angela.”

“There comes a time when we need to allow the Holy Spirit free reign to show us the applications to our inner man as we walk out our faith.”

What?? What does this have to do with how you read the Bible correctly? It is the biggest cop out I know.

I say x, using 10 verses, Greek and Hebrew to support my view. You are welcome to do the same, if you disagree with me. Some one did that about my exegetics on the thread about women pastors. I was so excited, I gave him a “like” and told him I would get back to him. (Which I must do, I’ve just been super busy with German.)

I want to DISCUSS the BIBLE! I love it! And discussing properly leads to us all learning and growing. Because, whether you like it or not, words have meaning. God wrote the WORDS for a reason. So we would understand his plans and purposes.

So, when God writes about “being a living sacrifice of our bodies” in Romans 12:1 and that we need to be “tranformed by the renewing of our minds” in Romans 12:2, it has a specific meaning. And that meaning is not healing. But, we can’t discuss what you meant, because you either post another copy and paste, or say the Holy Spirit told you so!

Instead, I get this arrogant, self-righteous comment, that you are being led by the Holy Spirit and that is what he personally told you. I could do that, too! I could say the Holy Spirit told me that this following passage was NOT about healing.

“And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.” Matt 14:14

Now, if I said it was not about healing, I would be guilty of one of two things.

1. Point blank lying, because it is obviously about Jesus healing!
2. Stupidity or ignorance. Maybe I don’t understand English, or don’t understand about Jesus healing the sick in the Bible, or maybe I don’t believe in anything supernatural. I understand Thomas Jefferson cut out every miracle and supernatural thing in his Bible. Now that is the definition of stupid!

But, you have set yourself up as above the definitions and words of the Bible, to saying “the Holy Spirit has led me to....”. Well, no, that is just wrong! The Holy Spirit will never show your something that is not there. Or lead you astray!

And that is why I am NOT going to let you get away with posting this nonsense and setting yourself up as a false prophet, when you are blaspheming or taking the works of the Holy Spirit in vain. That is the definition of blasphemy. Attributing something to the Holy Spirit he did not say.

It is also the definition of delusional. I hate to break it to you, but the Holy Spirit speaks to us all. But he never, ever tells us something that is contrary to Scripture, or something that is not right.

So, no, you are not a prophet of God, getting divine revelations, about something God has not said in those words. When God told me he is going to transform me, he showed me the rest of the verse, told me to seek his will. And that it would never be something different than what was in the passage.

This is NOT just a slight difference of opinion, it is you ravaging the text. It is about your making up stuff, ALL THE TIME, and then claiming the Holy Spirit told you so.

I don’t know if you are a liar or ignorant. But I do know you were totally wrong with how you interpreted Romans 12:1-2, and you have nothing to say but “a little birdie” told me.

As for me, being condemned and judged by Word Faith people so badly, I turned from God for 2 years, (a lot more than a little hurt!) I am long since over it. I use that personal example so people can understand how AWFUL Word Faith is, and how damaging it is. And I use the example of my friend with breast cancer who named and claimed it, and died, because I want to warn people how truly damaging and destructive this Word Faith doctrine is.

I am long since over the past, and what this heresy did to me. What I am concerned about, is that people who don’t know anything more than you do about how to interpret the Bible, getting sucked into this absolute unbiblcal garbage.

And if that is insulting you, it is only because you are the one who keeps posting all these UNhelpful blogs/videos/opinions which are not based on the Bible, but eisgesis, and lies! When Bruce was first here, posting links to Paul Ellis’ site, I went there immediately. I read 3 or 4 of Ellis’ articles, and realized he knew nothing about the Bible, and nothing about how to correctly interpret the Bible. And it is NOT by saying “The Holy Spirit led me.”

People have died, and have continued to physically die because someone told them healing is in the atonement, and they just need to believe. Nowadays, that is “waiting for a manifestation” as even the Word Faith teachers are getting tired of people asking them why they or their loved ones were not healed.

As for evil, I don’t think YOU are evil, just badly deluded. I think you sincerely believe all this nonsense. But, as long as you are posting stuff that is just wrong, which is pretty much every post, I will counter it.

This is not about whether we should all take a walk in the park today! It is about a very wrong and dangerous doctrine of demons. It is about you with your haughty nose in the air, claiming God has given you a special vision, when he has not. It is about you and your gurus twisting the Bible.

As for me being some kind of millennial student, I think not! It is hilarious really, that is the worst insult you could think to post. If I was like that, I wouldn’t spend most of my in the BDF, calling people like you out.

And yes, I read all your posts that you write. Like this one! But I am not interested in the false prophets and teachers you post, so no, I won’t be reading them. Repost them all you want, which by the way, is NOT clarifying. Write in your own words, and I am sure many people will read your posts, and we can have some decent discussions. As it is, no one cares what your gurus have to say. We’re all sick and tired of them.

As for not saying “you don’t have the faith to be healed” I never said you have said that. Nope, you say, “not yet manifested” or need to seek God deeper or something similar. The implication is there. Really, the implication is there when you try to show healing is in the atonement, Finally, I do get tired of your constant drivel that you are MORE led by the Holy Spirit, and therefore, have more knowledge than the rest of us “book sloggers.” The legalists who believe the written word, over a word from the Holy Spirit via you. When you account things to the Holy Spirit that are wrong, that is blasphemy. If you have a better word for saying you am delusional about what the Holy Spirit says to you, feel free to post it.

Two things before I end this post:
1. Stop using the amplified or whatever Bible you are using with all the square brackets. Make it legible for all to read. I know Henry Blackaby, a great man of God, used the Amplified. I bought one and got burned out the first week reading all the extra meanings.

2. Post links. For one thing it is plagiarism. For another, it is deceiving people into think you wrote it. It really is evil in this world, to post the intellectual property of someone else and claim it as your own, because you have not linked it. So simple, really. If you can copy and paste the article, surely you can spend the time copy and pasting the link?

Amen and amen and amen again a thousand times!

 

[Cee]

You're right about me being incredibly rude. I am sorry. Please forgive me.

I thought you were agreeing with Joan's poser -- the man in the video -- so I jumped the gun.

But, as for Paul giving himself over to Caesar, although, yes, he did, that's a bit like telling you, way back when, who you would be today. Acts is a book that tells what happened over the course of the beginning of that Jesus Movement. Imagine telling Paul who he would become as he was holding the cloaks of the men who stoned Stephen. Would he believe you? Would you believe anyone who told you way back when, that the Lord was going to work something so mighty in you that you would no longer want to jump out of moving cars? A lot had to happen between the beginning and the end. And it happens day-by-day, circumstance-by-circumstance, step-by-step, in God's power, long-suffering, love, and sovereignty, all for his glory and his people's good.

Word of Faith teachings are about jumping the shark to get the good stuff for the person's sake.

I hate that with a passion. I took that passion out on you, and for that I am sorry.

I appreciate your apology, totally forgiven. I have times that I get very passionate as well. I understand where you're coming from.

 

[Nehemiah6]

A natural solution is still provided by God, just as a supernatural one is.

Well then that blows your whole theory out of the water. So let's reiterate what all Bible-believing Christians believe about healing, so that you can finally admit that this theory about "healing in the Atonement" is a FALSIFICATION of the Gospel.

1. The Godhead (Father,Son, and Holy Spirit) have ALWAYS been Divine Healers ever since the curse of sin, sickness, and death came upon the human race. Hezekiah's healing is a perfect example.

2. Christ died for OUR SINS according to the Scriptures, not for promoting our health, wealth, and happiness.

3. The blood of Christ heals OUR SOULS and sets us free from the condemnation and penalty for our sins. We therefore have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

4. Christ healed absolutely everyone who came to Him for healing, but He did NOT GUARANTEE perfect health to the children of God. His healings were a part of all of His miracles, and those were to authenticate who He truly was -- the Son of God and the Messiah/King of Israel.

5. The Lord continues to heal people daily, either as a response to prayer or simply because ultimately He is the only Healer, and medical doctors can only go so far. Christians who are sick are instructed to call for the elders to pray over them.

6. The Lord uses natural plants and herbs for healing, since they were provided for that purpose. Therefore healing is not always supernatural (as you said).

7. There is absolutely no evidence that all the redeemed of the Lord always remain in perfect health. Indeed many of the most faithful saints of God have suffered terribly from sickness, disease, and disability. Paul could not get rid of his "thorn in the flesh" (in his body).

 

[Magenta]

6. The Lord uses natural plants and herbs for healing, since they were provided for that purpose. Therefore healing is not always supernatural (as you said).

That is not what Ben said...