Hebrew Roots Movement

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Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#61
JuameJ said:
His words on the Cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do," are interpreted ñañs
not including sinners whose sin is murder...........
Actually, not including those whose sin is unbelief.

Always mitigating unbelief. . .always blurring the boundaries--coloring outside the lines of gospel truth. . .always trying to slide untruth into the new covenant gospel. . .

None of that is the Holy Spirit. . .no matter how pious, "encouraging," ministerial, or "obedient" one may think it sounds.

Those who know the new covenant gospel can spot it at 40 paces. . .
 
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JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
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#62
So it has come to this. Today the majority are not heeding Christ's teaching to love our enemies, replacing it with ideologies of man.
Straw man. That's not at all what's going on here.

If we weren't loving others, we would not be preaching the wonderful Truths of the New Covenant - the Gospel of the Work of Christ.

His words on the Cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do," are interpreted ñañs not including sinners whose sin is murder...........
:confused: Ya lost me there, JaumeJ . . .

It is no small wonder these same people argue constandtly against being chldren of obedience, and following Christ's Example and teaching..
We do no such thing; we preach and teach the simple Truths of the New Covenant and the Work of Christ. Obedience is of faith in the New Covenant, and we are led by the Spirit, not by the Laws found in the Old Covenant. The example that Christ hold us to follow was not His Law-keeping, but His sacrificial love (see John 13:34, 1 Jn. 3:23-24).

Are you claiming to follow Jesus' teachings? Have your eyes or hands offended you? Are your members intact? If they are, then we can deduce that you are not following the teachings of Jesus, nor are you keeping the Law, for you would be lying about your eyes and hands offending you!

If you are claiming to walk as Jesus walked, then you cannot spiritualize the Law or Christ's teachings away, but MUST keep it as it is written, and not a law of your own creation.

Let us keep the almost-with-us folks in constant prayer for true understanding and salvation.
"Almost-with-us-folks?"

Those who believe in Christ but do not keep the commandments of the Old Covenant?

Are you saying that if we believe but do not keep the Old Covenant we are not really saved?

I'd like a yes or no answer to that one, please.

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#63
Guys, this is the kind of thing going on in the mainstream HRM these days (short video, about 17 minutes):

[video]https://youtu.be/Q00O4HXFCD4[/video]
"Why Was This Man Circumcised at 30 Years Old?"


Most of the major HRM ministries keep it in the background, but circumcision for religious reasons IS being preached to the 'more mature' in the Law.

Do not be deceived; the HRM absolutely IS the 'circumcision group' which Paul spoke of in Galatians, addressing both those who sought to be saved by belief in Christ and the keeping of the Law AND those who were seeking justification by Law alone. One thing that you will find consistently in the HRM is the belief that if you receive Jesus/Yeshua but willfully reject Torah observance that you are either

  1. not really saved
  2. will be the 'least in the kingdom', or
  3. will lose your salvation


It is ALL about Torah and the 'whole duty of man', and NOT about Christ, His Work, and who we are in Him.

-JGIG
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#64
Guys, this is the kind of thing going on in the mainstream HRM these days (short video, about 17 minutes):

[video]https://youtu.be/Q00O4HXFCD4[/video]
"Why Was This Man Circumcised at 30 Years Old?"


Most of the major HRM ministries keep it in the background, but circumcision for religious reasons IS being preached to the 'more mature' in the Law.

Do not be deceived; the HRM absolutely IS the 'circumcision group' which Paul spoke of in Galatians, addressing both those who sought to be saved by belief in Christ and the keeping of the Law AND those who were seeking justification by Law alone. One thing that you will find consistently in the HRM is the belief that if you receive Jesus/Yeshua but willfully reject Torah observance that you are either

  1. not really saved
  2. will be the 'least in the kingdom', or
  3. will lose your salvation


It is ALL about Torah and the 'whole duty of man', and NOT about Christ, His Work, and who we are in Him.

-JGIG

Not quite! the Jews in Paul's time truly did not understand that a relationship with God was possible outside the 'brit-haadamah', the covenant of blood made with Abraham; which long preceded the the LAW.


These are gentiles deceived into putting themselves under a law they have no understanding of.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#65
Guys, this is the kind of thing going on in the mainstream HRM these days (short video, about 17 minutes):

[video]https://youtu.be/Q00O4HXFCD4[/video]
"Why Was This Man Circumcised at 30 Years Old?"


Most of the major HRM ministries keep it in the background, but circumcision for religious reasons IS being preached to the 'more mature' in the Law.

Do not be deceived; the HRM absolutely IS the 'circumcision group' which Paul spoke of in Galatians, addressing both those who sought to be saved by belief in Christ and the keeping of the Law AND those who were seeking justification by Law alone. One thing that you will find consistently in the HRM is the belief that if you receive Jesus/Yeshua but willfully reject Torah observance that you are either

  1. not really saved
  2. will be the 'least in the kingdom', or
  3. will lose your salvation


It is ALL about Torah and the 'whole duty of man', and NOT about Christ, His Work, and who we are in Him.

-JGIG

Not quite! the Jews in Paul's time truly did not understand that a relationship with God was possible outside the 'brit-haadamah', the covenant of blood made with Abraham; which long preceded the the LAW.

While that may be the case, Paul, addressing Gentiles in Galatia, made it clear that neither salvation nor the maintaining of salvation was achieved by Law-keeping.


These are gentiles deceived into putting themselves under a law they have no understanding of.
Agreed.

-JGIG
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#66
While that may be the case, Paul, addressing Gentiles in Galatia, made it clear that neither salvation nor the maintaining of salvation was achieved by Law-keeping.

Agreed.

-JGIG
It is strange that they try to make such assertions about circumcision, in light of Acts 15 and Galatians 5:1-4 amongst many other Scriptures.

I am studying this book right now called Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. Judy, you should get a copy of I you don't already have it. it is amazing for disproving much of the Old Covenant vs. New Covenant stuff.

Dale is an ex Seventh Day Adventist pastor and his family was SDA for 4 generations.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#67
Those who know the new covenant gospel can spot it at 40 paces. . .
Leapin lizzurds 'o mercy, Elin! Shoot! Where yoo been? Ah spots 'em down two block aways, Esso sign left katteecorner et da light. Liken ta Elduh Floyd big 'ol butt et da fillin stayshun. Looks 'roun left. Den Floyd looks 'roun right. He et setterin few mo timez. (Dat mean Floyd 'ol fat head left den right, sayed few mo timez by Latinese.) Floyd be's seein nobody lookin, tares page out Awake magzeen, puts hiz big 'ol wad chewin gum 'n rest whole Awake in trash can, wich is can rain blow on wit rust hole down 'roun middle, one next ta premium wit lead pump, iffin yoo wunders wich can. Mercy, next thing he sayin he 144,000 et da Burger King, new Awake in big 'ol fat hand! He 'bout sinless as be Generil Sherman, havin nite on town 'roun Atlanta, mercy up in smokes!
 
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MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#68
While that may be the case, Paul, addressing Gentiles in Galatia, made it clear that neither salvation nor the maintaining of salvation was achieved by Law-keeping.




Agreed.

-JGIG



Certainly true; and I never intended to dispute that:).

When I said "not quite", I had hoped to indicate substantial agreement with one reservation.
 

Word_Swordsman

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
1,666
100
48
#69
Actually, the OT is part of the Bible simply because it is the word of God written, and for no other utilitarian purpose.

And keeping in mind that there is no more powerful knowledge of the word of God than saving knowledge of the new covenant gospel.
2 Timothy 3:13-17 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


The scriptures Timothy would have learned as a child were all OT. Please search out verse 15 and what it might mean to us today.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#70
It is strange that they try to make such assertions about circumcision, in light of Acts 15 and Galatians 5:1-4 amongst many other Scriptures.

I am studying this book right now called Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. Judy, you should get a copy of I you don't already have it. it is amazing for disproving much of the Old Covenant vs. New Covenant stuff.

Dale is an ex Seventh Day Adventist pastor and his family was SDA for 4 generations.
Dale emailed me about a year ago asking if he could reprint one of the posts at JGIG =o). He wrote:

I found your “10 truths that drive law keepers crazy”. I would like to work up an article from many of the Scriptures you use. In fact my Book Sabbath in Christ already has many of your arguments and texts. However, your quotes from the “law keepers” etc. would be good. If I give you credit and have a link to your site, would you give me permission to glean from your article?


I gave him permission, of course, as all posts authored by me at JGIG are to be freely shared :).

Another good article on the Sabbath and whether or not we should keep it is Confessions of A Former Sabbath Keeper. It covers so many of the issues in a really healthy, humble way.

-JGIG
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#71
I suppose I tried too hard to keep a post short, leaving the wrong impression. I posted that link in #3 as what I think is a short introduction to why HRM ought to be avoided. I've never had personal experience with A HRM adherent, except online in debate, opposing their agenda.

I doubt it's good to lump all movements involving Judaism in with them, like some of the Messianic Jew congregations, of which there are many variations, some resembling the old Worldwide Church of God-Armstrong group, while others remind me of how it must have been for that soldier chained to Paul.

There are people I know are as Christian as Paul or Peter, or any of the most devout I personally, who have a Jewish background, who have embraced Jesus as Lord and savior. Two groups of them I am familiar with have members who are expert on everything Old Testament, cherishing every word, but also the New Testament. Both of them have their ministry focus on reaching Jews for Jesus, reaching gentiles along the way. Their manner is to prove the NT using the OT as much as will help. On Passover they celebrate that as a congregation, inviting gentiles to take part. Both conclude that by keeping the Lord's Supper, preaching the typology of scriptures for those ordinances. I had led in the Lord's Supper many times back home, but found I was doing so quite ignorantly, never hearing of the connection of the two.

Those two teach the whole Bible, but their work is to make disciples of Christ who understand the "whys and wherefores" of the entire background of what the apostles knew about Judaism and of Jesus. Such knowledge is powerful. It's why most Christian leaders and scholars have been in favor of keeping the OT bound to a NT volume in our Bibles.

The distinction I've observed from being around those people is they remain excited about the Lord 7 days a week, taking Jesus home with them, returning to church with Jesus. Their homes testify of Jesus, homes full of love, children remarkably obedient and pleasant. They all seemed very prosperous, healthy.

I never heard legalism from them. They all conclude with teachings centered on Jesus and his commandments, treasuring all the NT. They observe some Jewish feasts, but use those to teach the fulfillment in Christ. They meet on Saturdays and Sundays, Wednesdays, to accommodate people with different needs, and allow for times when a rancher just can't always leave home every Sunday. What they do would be very difficult to learn from modern books, and would require writing a book to explain this. So I am open to fellowship with Christian groups like theirs, but not the hardcore HRM into which the good Messianic groups are lumped. I wish I could be specific about where they are, but my clients are ranchers for whom I designed private lakes and still serve to update ecological management plans. I'll be visiting them every few years the rest of my useful life, enjoying living on their property, fellowshipping day and night. I know from them there are many more churches like theirs around the nation.

Sorry for the confusion.
I still have a high regard for what you post, usually, but I believed that that site needed correction.

no bad feelings here!
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#72
2 Timothy 3:13-17 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


The scriptures Timothy would have learned as a child were all OT. Please search out verse 15 and what it might mean to us today.
Then are you building an ark and slaying Philistines as directed in the OT?

No?

Why not?

Because you're rightly dividing the Word, you say?

Exactly.

In Christ, under His Perfect and Permanent High Priesthood, we are no longer under the Laws given to Israel at Sinai, but in the New Covenant: Believe on the One God has sent and love one anther (1 Jn. 3:23-24).

-JGIG
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#73

Not quite! the Jews in Paul's time truly did not understand that a relationship with God was possible outside the 'brit-haadamah', the covenant of blood made with Abraham; which long preceded the the LAW.


These are gentiles deceived into putting themselves under a law they have no understanding of.
They did not understand that covenant was entered by faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ; everlasting possession).
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#74
Leapin lizzurds 'o mercy, Elin! Shoot! Where yoo been? Ah spots 'em down two block aways, Esso sign left katteecorner et da light. Liken ta Elduh Floyd big 'ol butt et da fillin stayshun. Looks 'roun left. Den Floyd looks 'roun right. He et setterin few mo timez. (Dat mean Floyd 'ol fat head left den right, sayed few mo timez by Latinese.) Floyd be's seein nobody lookin, tares page out Awake magzeen, puts hiz big 'ol wad chewin gum 'n rest whole Awake in trash can, wich is can rain blow on wit rust hole down 'roun middle, one next ta premium wit lead pump, iffin yoo wunders wich can. Mercy, next thing he sayin he 144,000 et da Burger King, new Awake in big 'ol fat hand! He 'bout sinless as be Generil Sherman, havin nite on town 'roun Atlanta, mercy up in smokes!
Mercy. . .mercy. . .mercy. . .nobody can paint a picture of cultural and language better than you do. . .a sheer work of art, genious and cleverness. . .but it sho heps havin' ben der ta know jes how accurate 'tis.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#75
Elin said:
Actually, the OT is part of the Bible simply because it is the word of God written, and for no other utilitarian purpose.

And keeping in mind that there is no more powerful knowledge of the word of God than saving knowledge of the new covenant gospel.
2 Timothy 3:13-17 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


The scriptures Timothy would have learned as a child were all OT
.
Yes, that is what I said. . .does anyone disagree with that?
 
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J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#76
Mercy. . .mercy. . .mercy. . .nobody can paint a picture of cultural and language better than you do. . .a sheer work of art, genious and cleverness. . .but it sho heps havin' ben der ta know jes how accurate 'tis.
Thank yoo, but evry day I's hopin they be sum elemints 'o eggsaggerashun, but, pert near, some folks onliest be spellin lil better, trooth be's knowin, mercy et da mobile liberary!
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#77
Yes, that is what I said. . .does anyone disagree with that?
This is ChristianChat, so I strongly disagree. Now, what is it I'm disagreeing with?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#78
This is ChristianChat, so I strongly disagree. Now, what is it I'm disagreeing with?
This is ChristianChat. . .can't remember. . .haven't even read my own posts.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#79
This is ChristianChat. . .can't remember. . .haven't even read my own posts.
I know. Haven't read my own, either. Haven't read the Bible much, and didn't understand what I did read. Don't know anything about theology, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
 

Word_Swordsman

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
1,666
100
48
#80
Yes, that is what I said. . .does anyone disagree with that?
I think I know what you meant, but wanted to point out "utilitarian". That's usually meant "to be useful for practical or useful in general in contrast to aesthetic (as with abstract art needing interpretation from the artist, but of no direct useful application). All scripture, OT & NT, is useful for more than the literal wording, none being merely rhetoric. I regard all the word of God to be utilitarian in some obvious mode, as Paul indicated to Timothy.