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Do you say catholic believe that salvation is throug Christ alone?
look like It is not the case,
I quote lumen gentium. 2/16
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.[18] There is, first, that people to which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was born according to the flesh (cf. Rom. 9:4-5): in view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts of God are without repentance (cf. Rom. 11:29-29).
But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems:
these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day. Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things
look like It is not the case,
I quote lumen gentium. 2/16
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.[18] There is, first, that people to which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was born according to the flesh (cf. Rom. 9:4-5): in view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts of God are without repentance (cf. Rom. 11:29-29).
But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems:
these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day. Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things
Hi WimpyPete
seem to me catholic do not believe salvation through Christ alone
thi link below say Pope teach atheist may go to heaven
Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven | The Independent
seem to me catholic do not believe salvation through Christ alone
thi link below say Pope teach atheist may go to heaven
Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven | The Independent
Hi, no expert but did share my thoughts with those of a Catholic persuasion daily for over ten years with many Catholics. While I do not think be of the Catholic denomination eliminates a person from being a Christian it is more like a dark place.
There are many here that could help you have a better understanding of the faith of Christ and how it works in us.
In the end it is the same thing that plagued the Jews when Christ was here. Sola scriptura or all that is written in the law and the prophets. It made the traditions of the fathers to no effect and not the other way around as it is with those who do serve a law of the fathers . there tradition also called “apostolic succession” do make sola scriptura to no effect.
Reformers are not in the place of God.
The phrase “original sin” is a law of the Catholics fathers as an oral tradition of men. All sin originates when one violates a commandment of God. No such thing as artificial sin or unofficial
Yes according to Christ’s grace alone. He does all the work needed for us to believe Him. The grace of Christ in respect to Christ work of faith does not come from a persons own work called purgatory . Christ made the payment in full. When he said it was fiished it was
We are lovingly commanded not to have the faith of Christ or generated by which comes from hearing God, rather by seeking the approval of any man, Luther. Calvin or the Pope. God is not a man as us and neither is there any daysman (Pope) set between God and man as an infallible fleshly interpreter.
If you were looking for the flesh of Christ to profit for something then what you offered would be correct. Christ said of His own flesh it did not profit, the living Words of the Spirit is that which alone does. But again we do not need any man to teach us… that kind of idea that we do ned man to teach us defines the antichrists . We study to seek His approval not that of the creation(Pope)
God reveals himself as having one mind and therefore always does whatsoever His soul pleases with the clay he is forming Christ in. nothing comes by chance. or a toss of the coin He is not served by human hands
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Christ does all the work of salvation from the first hearing of faith to the last hearing of faith. Those who look to some work they could perform that could add to his work are called foolish . And.as the scriptures inform us we are born again of a imputed a righteousness not of our own selves, but of God working in us to both will and perform his good pleasure
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by “the hearing of faith?”Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by “the hearing of faith”?Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Gal 3:1-6
When God breathed the breath of spirit life into a body made from the dust he became a responsible moral agent.
Again we are not to have the faith as a work of God that works in us in respect to any man… to do so is to commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit our one teacher guide and comforter As new creatures we do have the authority or power to believe God but again it is not of us. Its Emanuel God with us and not God is one of us as if he was a man and hade a beginning of days and end of Spirit life. He remains without father and mother..Seek his approval. .
Giving that authority we have in us to the Pope, Luther or Calvin simply turns things upside down . Where are hearts are there we will find of treasure
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 2Co 4:7
Study what the phrase “hearing of faith” means and in respect to that.... whose faith . Hearing our own imaginations of one heart as the source of faith or another of flesh and blood?
There are many here that could help you have a better understanding of the faith of Christ and how it works in us.
In the end it is the same thing that plagued the Jews when Christ was here. Sola scriptura or all that is written in the law and the prophets. It made the traditions of the fathers to no effect and not the other way around as it is with those who do serve a law of the fathers . there tradition also called “apostolic succession” do make sola scriptura to no effect.
Reformers are not in the place of God.
The phrase “original sin” is a law of the Catholics fathers as an oral tradition of men. All sin originates when one violates a commandment of God. No such thing as artificial sin or unofficial
Yes according to Christ’s grace alone. He does all the work needed for us to believe Him. The grace of Christ in respect to Christ work of faith does not come from a persons own work called purgatory . Christ made the payment in full. When he said it was fiished it was
We are lovingly commanded not to have the faith of Christ or generated by which comes from hearing God, rather by seeking the approval of any man, Luther. Calvin or the Pope. God is not a man as us and neither is there any daysman (Pope) set between God and man as an infallible fleshly interpreter.
If you were looking for the flesh of Christ to profit for something then what you offered would be correct. Christ said of His own flesh it did not profit, the living Words of the Spirit is that which alone does. But again we do not need any man to teach us… that kind of idea that we do ned man to teach us defines the antichrists . We study to seek His approval not that of the creation(Pope)
God reveals himself as having one mind and therefore always does whatsoever His soul pleases with the clay he is forming Christ in. nothing comes by chance. or a toss of the coin He is not served by human hands
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Christ does all the work of salvation from the first hearing of faith to the last hearing of faith. Those who look to some work they could perform that could add to his work are called foolish . And.as the scriptures inform us we are born again of a imputed a righteousness not of our own selves, but of God working in us to both will and perform his good pleasure
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by “the hearing of faith?”Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by “the hearing of faith”?Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Gal 3:1-6
When God breathed the breath of spirit life into a body made from the dust he became a responsible moral agent.
Again we are not to have the faith as a work of God that works in us in respect to any man… to do so is to commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit our one teacher guide and comforter As new creatures we do have the authority or power to believe God but again it is not of us. Its Emanuel God with us and not God is one of us as if he was a man and hade a beginning of days and end of Spirit life. He remains without father and mother..Seek his approval. .
Giving that authority we have in us to the Pope, Luther or Calvin simply turns things upside down . Where are hearts are there we will find of treasure
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 2Co 4:7
Study what the phrase “hearing of faith” means and in respect to that.... whose faith . Hearing our own imaginations of one heart as the source of faith or another of flesh and blood?
Hi Huckleberry,
The conversation moves away from religion because most Catholics have never studied their "religion" and know practically nothing of it.
All they know is what they THINK it is.
And the little the priest says at the homily part of the Mass.
This is very unfortunate since, if you speak to a priest, he knows all the same things we do except that they believe in some kind of purgatory. Some don't even believe in confession, although it IS an official teaching of the Catholic Church.
Just a thought...
The conversation moves away from religion because most Catholics have never studied their "religion" and know practically nothing of it.
All they know is what they THINK it is.
And the little the priest says at the homily part of the Mass.
This is very unfortunate since, if you speak to a priest, he knows all the same things we do except that they believe in some kind of purgatory. Some don't even believe in confession, although it IS an official teaching of the Catholic Church.
Just a thought...
W
So good news, the Catholic Church that so many of you apparently hate so much actually doesn't exist. As Fulton Sheen said, "there aren't a hundred people alive today who hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they think the Church to be".
Almost everything that has been said so far in these posts (all off topic by the way) about Mary and the Pope and the Saints and Sacraments, or even the Catholic understanding of Salvation is not accurate to what the Church actually believes. I would be interested in individual conversations about each of these particular topics, but apparently that isn't possible on a forum like this. Br. Roger of the Taize movement (not Catholic) said that we will never be able to move towards greater unity as Christians unless our starting point is a basic respect for one another as fellow believers who are whole heartedly tring to seek the truth and the Lord who is Truth.
Yes there are Catholics who don't know the bible and who maybe don't even love God, agreed. But that is true of every denomination, and frankly it is sad in my opinion that you all can have such a naive opinion of the tremendously rich tradition of Catholicism. I don't expect you to agree with it or else you would be Catholic, but to try to pretend like Catholics don't love the Lord or the Bible is not intellectually honest.
You can't read Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict XVI and tell me that he is not a good man who knows the Scriptures and the Lord very well. Read the council of Trent or Vatican II and you will see how Christocentric they are and how grounded in Scripture they are (albiet a different interpretatio of the Scriptures than Protestants that is true, but Biblically based none the less). Or read something like the "Joint Declaraction on the Doctrine of Justification" put together by various leaders of Protestant denominations and Catholics and see how much more similiar our core beliefs are than most think. Or read a serious thinker like Louis Bouyer who has a deep understanding of both traditions in his book "The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism".
I'm guessing most won't read any of that, which is fine, I understand there isn't time enough to read everyone's recommendations. But if you were to truly engage such sources with honesty you would not be able to maintain your misconceived bias against Catholicism.
I would like to make more comments on the various topics you have brought up but I just don't have time to be able to try to engage in 13 debates at once especially when each comment just spirals into 5 other digressions. Thanks to those who actually replied on topic and with true desire for Christian dialog. Peace
Almost everything that has been said so far in these posts (all off topic by the way) about Mary and the Pope and the Saints and Sacraments, or even the Catholic understanding of Salvation is not accurate to what the Church actually believes. I would be interested in individual conversations about each of these particular topics, but apparently that isn't possible on a forum like this. Br. Roger of the Taize movement (not Catholic) said that we will never be able to move towards greater unity as Christians unless our starting point is a basic respect for one another as fellow believers who are whole heartedly tring to seek the truth and the Lord who is Truth.
Yes there are Catholics who don't know the bible and who maybe don't even love God, agreed. But that is true of every denomination, and frankly it is sad in my opinion that you all can have such a naive opinion of the tremendously rich tradition of Catholicism. I don't expect you to agree with it or else you would be Catholic, but to try to pretend like Catholics don't love the Lord or the Bible is not intellectually honest.
You can't read Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict XVI and tell me that he is not a good man who knows the Scriptures and the Lord very well. Read the council of Trent or Vatican II and you will see how Christocentric they are and how grounded in Scripture they are (albiet a different interpretatio of the Scriptures than Protestants that is true, but Biblically based none the less). Or read something like the "Joint Declaraction on the Doctrine of Justification" put together by various leaders of Protestant denominations and Catholics and see how much more similiar our core beliefs are than most think. Or read a serious thinker like Louis Bouyer who has a deep understanding of both traditions in his book "The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism".
I'm guessing most won't read any of that, which is fine, I understand there isn't time enough to read everyone's recommendations. But if you were to truly engage such sources with honesty you would not be able to maintain your misconceived bias against Catholicism.
I would like to make more comments on the various topics you have brought up but I just don't have time to be able to try to engage in 13 debates at once especially when each comment just spirals into 5 other digressions. Thanks to those who actually replied on topic and with true desire for Christian dialog. Peace
As I said, the conversation usually moves away from religion
because I don't like arguing with people about it since it's futile.
As you said, many of them know practically nothing of their own religion.
I don't find it constructive to disparage their religion in an argument that, even
if I theologically win said argument, produces nothing but anger and animosity.
Some of these people are so steeped in tradition that the
thought of turning their back on it is unthinkable to them.
My M.O. is to gently explain my position to them,
I.e., subtly give them the Gospel, and then back off.
I plant a seed, maybe someone else down the
line waters it, but only God gives the increase.
because I don't like arguing with people about it since it's futile.
As you said, many of them know practically nothing of their own religion.
I don't find it constructive to disparage their religion in an argument that, even
if I theologically win said argument, produces nothing but anger and animosity.
Some of these people are so steeped in tradition that the
thought of turning their back on it is unthinkable to them.
My M.O. is to gently explain my position to them,
I.e., subtly give them the Gospel, and then back off.
I plant a seed, maybe someone else down the
line waters it, but only God gives the increase.
W
Aren't all in the PLAN of salvation? Even if not all will be saved?
Does not God wish for all to be saved?
1 TIM
1I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
Does not God wish for all to be saved?
1 TIM
1I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
W
Sorry that I won't have time to reply to all the various objections as I said, but this one is brief enough and several of you have mention it. In the statements such as the above quote from Lumen Gentium, the Church is not saying that Jews can be saved by/through Judaism and Muslims through Islam and Atheists through (science??), but rather, that we hold out the hope that such persons, if (IF!) they are seeking to live the truth in charity to the best of their ability and conscience, could possibly still be saved through Christ.
Now this is not an easy topic so you can't just read one paragraph of a document and then start making accusations. The Church as early as the Council of Orange in the early 5th century had already made statements about salvation only being available through Christ, and these have been reaffirmed in various councils, particularly Trent in answer to the Reformers. So the idea is not that there are other saviors besides Christ, but rather that because God IS Truth and IS Charity, we Hope (note well, we hope, not that it is certain but that we have to at least hope and pray), that those who have had no chance to know Christ could still be saved by Him because they have sought Him in seeking the Truth and Charity. So think for instance of the Last Judgement in Matthew, those who are saved are those who feed the poor and visited the imprisoned etc, and those who are condemned say "but Lord didn't we...". Now don't confuse me for trying to teach salvation by works which I already can hear people jumping into, but the Church merely recognizes that while we know that Christ alone is the savior it seems like a good idea to hope and pray for the millions and millions of people who will never have the chance to know Him by name, and believe that because He is a good Savior it might be possible for Him to finds means to save such persons.
To deny this hope is to admit that there are millions of people who God created without giving any chance of salvation. Think of the people living on other continents 5 minutes after Jesus died. They would have no chance to ever hear of this beautiful story about the God who entered into His creation to rescue His lost bride. So the Church atleast says we can't condemn them and we hope that God can save them throught he little knowledge of His Son that they would have from their conscience and reason which are glimmers of the image of God in man which He implanted that we might know Him.
As CS Lewis (an Anglican
) says: "Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should beconfined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is God hasnot told us what His arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no man can be savedexcept through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him"
I don't expect that to be an exhaustive explanation of the matter to convince you, but it is just to go to show you that you have to be able to understand something of the context of these teachings to understand them correctly.
Now this is not an easy topic so you can't just read one paragraph of a document and then start making accusations. The Church as early as the Council of Orange in the early 5th century had already made statements about salvation only being available through Christ, and these have been reaffirmed in various councils, particularly Trent in answer to the Reformers. So the idea is not that there are other saviors besides Christ, but rather that because God IS Truth and IS Charity, we Hope (note well, we hope, not that it is certain but that we have to at least hope and pray), that those who have had no chance to know Christ could still be saved by Him because they have sought Him in seeking the Truth and Charity. So think for instance of the Last Judgement in Matthew, those who are saved are those who feed the poor and visited the imprisoned etc, and those who are condemned say "but Lord didn't we...". Now don't confuse me for trying to teach salvation by works which I already can hear people jumping into, but the Church merely recognizes that while we know that Christ alone is the savior it seems like a good idea to hope and pray for the millions and millions of people who will never have the chance to know Him by name, and believe that because He is a good Savior it might be possible for Him to finds means to save such persons.
To deny this hope is to admit that there are millions of people who God created without giving any chance of salvation. Think of the people living on other continents 5 minutes after Jesus died. They would have no chance to ever hear of this beautiful story about the God who entered into His creation to rescue His lost bride. So the Church atleast says we can't condemn them and we hope that God can save them throught he little knowledge of His Son that they would have from their conscience and reason which are glimmers of the image of God in man which He implanted that we might know Him.
As CS Lewis (an Anglican
) says: "Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should beconfined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is God hasnot told us what His arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no man can be savedexcept through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him"I don't expect that to be an exhaustive explanation of the matter to convince you, but it is just to go to show you that you have to be able to understand something of the context of these teachings to understand them correctly.