HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Faith!

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May 2, 2014
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#41
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

Also, you didn't answer this - is Gen 31:11-13 greater than John 1:1? Why or why not?

You say that the bible doesn't give an exact answer to who the angel who is called God is, but it does. The following 2 verses "mirror" each other and speak on the same exact event...

1 Chron 21:1,
SATAN incited David to number the people.

2 Sam 24:1,
JEHOVAH incited David to number the people.

So yes, it did bother me when I saw Wayne say this in the video. How can it not bother me. In the same bible that says that there is an angel of God who is God, it also says that Satan is God the Father. How am I supposed to not be troubled by that?

The Bible doesn't say that Satan is God the Father. People can make the Scriptures appear to support what they say because they pull passages out of context. The Greek word "angelos" that is translated "angel" means messenger, not a spirit being. If you read the word as messenger instead of angel it helps clarify things. The messenger or the Lord and be different depending on context, however, many times it's the "Word" the pre-incarnate Jesus.
 
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Powemm

Guest
#42
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

To the original post.... God himself will reveal himself to you...just ask and talk to him about it... and when He does... you will have absolutely no doubt about it... keep in mind how he reveals himself to you is personal..he wants us to come to know him.. but we run to everyone else instead..its sort of like me running to your neighbor instead of you directly to find out who " you" are... if i do it that way... depending on how many people i talk to about you... it can become a pretty watered down distorted version of who "you" really are... its the same with god.. hes awesome and better than I could have ever imagined... the way I was getting to know him... (through everyone else) well.... it was a very watered down distorted view...
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#43
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

You basically said "That whole thing is stupid, what a joke!", and trust me that is much easier than fighting it head on. But if you actually sit down and try to go against every point in the video, it becomes a very difficult and impossible thing to do. That's what I asked for from the 2 deacons, and they came up short. And no, they weren't Osteen, it's just that the video is difficult.

For example, do you think abortion is wrong? So do I. But Wayne said that God the Father ordered that all the babies in Jericho be aborted with a metal sword. I knew the Old Testament had some violent parts, but I never went into detail until I watched the video. He said "Even parents who didn't want their babies to be aborted had their babies aborted with a sword in front of them by God the Father's command". I don't know how to argue that. How is that not wrong? I don't know. Can you engage that point or the other 100 points in the video? Please do it here and help me out.
If your deacons couldn't answer those basic questions, I'd bring it to the pastor, and if he couldn't I'd find another Church. But to lose your faith over it? Nawww.
 
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elf3

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#44
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

You basically said "That whole thing is stupid, what a joke!", and trust me that is much easier than fighting it head on. But if you actually sit down and try to go against every point in the video, it becomes a very difficult and impossible thing to do. That's what I asked for from the 2 deacons, and they came up short. And no, they weren't Osteen, it's just that the video is difficult.

For example, do you think abortion is wrong? So do I. But Wayne said that God the Father ordered that all the babies in Jericho be aborted with a metal sword. I knew the Old Testament had some violent parts, but I never went into detail until I watched the video. He said "Even parents who didn't want their babies to be aborted had their babies aborted with a sword in front of them by God the Father's command". I don't know how to argue that. How is that not wrong? I don't know. Can you engage that point or the other 100 points in the video? Please do it here and help me out.
My major problem was the statement "new religion" which is why I didn't get much farther. Then the whole triangle eye thing was like something out of the movie "national treasure". So yeah 2 hours of that...nope.

How about you post your questions then we can answer.
 
Jun 30, 2011
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#45
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

If this conversation get's no where - it's probably from a Troll
 
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Ukorin

Guest
#46
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

nothing he said was original. these are standard arguments found on atheists vs christians debates.
if you have a specific question, ask it.
I watched the video. how can i respond too all his points in a single post?
be specific.

nothing that he said is very powerful when raised against the whole of the Word of God.
each point is just a twist of the context, and nothing more. reading a different translation solves 90% of his remarks.
 
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Tintin

Guest
#47
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

My major problem was the statement "new religion" which is why I didn't get much farther. Then the whole triangle eye thing was like something out of the movie "national treasure". So yeah 2 hours of that...nope.

How about you post your questions then we can answer.
Dude, don't get caught up in all that Illuminati nonsense. You'll get nowhere and just end up being afraid of everything. Instead, look to Christ, the Author and perfecter of our faith.
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
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#48
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

If this conversation get's no where - it's probably from a Troll
I don't think it will get anywhere either, had numerous chances to have a proper discussion if genuine, so yes, I think a number of us have already spotted this!
 
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elf3

Guest
#49
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

Dude, don't get caught up in all that Illuminati nonsense. You'll get nowhere and just end up being afraid of everything. Instead, look to Christ, the Author and perfecter of our faith.
Me caught up in illuminati? Shoot I had to check your post to spell illuminati lol
 
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Tintin

Guest
#50
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

Me caught up in illuminati? Shoot I had to check your post to spell illuminati lol
Oops, sorry. I quoted you instead of peaceand, but my thoughts were brought about by some of your posts. :)
 
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elf3

Guest
#51
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

Oops, sorry. I quoted you instead of peaceand, but my thoughts were brought about by some of your posts. :)
Haha no worries.
 
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peaceand

Guest
#52
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

My major problem was the statement "new religion" which is why I didn't get much farther. Then the whole triangle eye thing was like something out of the movie "national treasure". So yeah 2 hours of that...nope.

How about you post your questions then we can answer.
I have posted them but then got made fun of for posting them, then I stopped and am now being criticized for stopping. Well, here it goes again...

Jesus' 1st coming is exactly that, and his future 2nd coming is exactly that - he didn't come hundreds of times before his 1st coming. I find it very bizarre that I have to even say that. There's not even a verse in the bible that says Jesus was physically on earth in the Old Testament, so how can Jesus be the angel who was physically on earth a lot in the Old Testament? I can't just pretend it's Jesus even though I know it's not. Who is the angel of God? People keep saying it's Jesus, but there's no verse in the bible that says it is Jesus.

Moreover, as brought up by Wayne in the video, Jesus literally quoted the angel in Mark 12:26. Jesus didn't say "I am that angel who physically was on earth and spoke to Moses", rather Jesus quotes the angel of God from Ex 3:2-6 and calls the angel "God" and Jesus says that "God said to Moses 'I am God'." As much as all of you say Wayne's video is stupid, and even though I don't agree with the whole video - I have to admit that Mark 12:26 makes it that Jesus is not the angel. How can you try to say Jesus is the angel with Mark 12:26 in the bible?


Wayne said that these verses - 1 Chronicles 21:1, 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:15, and 2 Chronicles 3:1 - give the answer as to who the angel of God is. The first 2 verses mirror each other and speak about the same exact event, and the last 2 verses do the same thing.

1 Chronicles 21:1
SATAN incited David to number the people.

2 Samuel 24:1
JEHOVAH incited David to number the people.


and the other 2 mirror verses speak of the same event as each other and declare someone who is just "an" angel to be Jehovah...

1 Chronicles 21:15
God sent AN angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. And the angel of Jehovah stood at the temple floor of the Jebusite.

2 Chronicles 3:1
Jehovah appeared at the temple floor of the Jebusite.



People keep saying that the angel is never called "an" angel but always "the" angel, but 1 Chron 21:15 makes that untrue. The one called "an" angel is called Jehovah in the mirror verse. Also, Wayne points out that Jebusites were pagans, which means their God was Satan. He says the bible specifically wrote about the temple of the Jebusites to drive the point home that the bible declared Satan to be God the Father. So we have an angel of God standing on the temple floor of Satan worshipers & being called "Jehovah" in the bible, within the same chapter that 1 Chronicles 21:1 is in.

Now that amount of detail on the subject I never heard before, so Wayne's claim to originality probably holds up.

Do you have biblical evidence as good as that showing that the angel is anyone else?

Wayne says that the angel of God is Satan, sounds crazy but he presents evidence. Everyone else says the angel is Jesus, that sounds good until you realize that there's no evidence for that in the bible and, even though Jesus existed before his 1st coming, Jesus never physically appeared on earth before his 1st coming while the angel did many times.


And when Wayne talks about what he calls "the evil that is in the bible", he says that it ties to the angel of God concept. Wayne thinks that the babies in Jericho being murdered is evil, but says "the evil was ordered because the angel of God is the God, it was Satan who ordered city-wide abortions because he is the God".

This took me over an hour to write. Thanks to anyone who will answer instead of making fun of me.

PS - I will show this thread and Wayne's video to my pastor tomorrow, thanks for the advice and I'll give an update on what he says.
 
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peaceand

Guest
#53
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

My pastor said he will look at it, but to give him time. He hopes to have watched all of it by this Wednesday.
 
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peaceand

Guest
#54
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

Well, I wasn't going to post anything on this thread...hoping it would pass on into no longer read territory, but since it's at the top of the list again...

I forced myself to listen to video up to the point where "Wayne" refers to God as "a lying jack***"!

If that were the case, then we would all be in a lot of trouble and would be wasting our time reading the Bible.

I think this verse may lend some explanation to Wayne's conclusion"


Jeremiah 51:17a
All mankind is stupid, devoid of knowledge;

Yes, I include myself among the stupid...anything we know or understand is by the grace of God.
So what do you say about Jeremiah 20:7?
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#55
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

So what do you say about Jeremiah 20:7?
I don't know...Jeremiah 20:6;)
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#56
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

2 Chronicles 18:21
He said, ‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He(God) said, ‘You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.’
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#57
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

Ephesians 4:17-27
17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. 20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. 26 Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and do not give the devil an opportunity.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#58
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

Genesis 38:6-10
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was evil in the sight of the Lord, so the Lord took his life. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord; so He took his life also.


Do you dare judge God for killing Er and Onan? Did He not create all life? Is it not His to give or to take? If we are evil, then God gives us over to deception. That does not mean that He lies to us, but that we chose to be deceived by giving ourselves over to sin! God's justice is the only supreme justice and if we don't think so it is because of our own lack of understanding. And I must say that we don't have to (and cant') understand everything, but we can believe in God and His Almighty Love.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#59
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

2 Samuel 12:7-23
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. [SUP]8 [/SUP]I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these! [SUP]9 [/SUP]Why have you despised the word of the Lord by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ [SUP]11 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.’” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. [SUP]14 [/SUP]However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]So Nathan went to his house.

Then the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s widow bore to David, so that he was very sick. [SUP]16 [/SUP]David therefore inquired of God for the child; and David fasted and went and lay all night on the ground. [SUP]17 [/SUP]The elders of his household stood beside him in order to raise him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat food with them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then it happened on the seventh day that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was still alive, we spoke to him and he did not listen to our voice. How then can we tell him that the child is dead, since he might do himself harm!” [SUP]19 [/SUP]But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David perceived that the child was dead; so David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” And they said, “He is dead.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]So David arose from the ground, washed, anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he came into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he came to his own house, and when he requested, they set food before him and he ate.[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the Lord may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”


Here we have the man after God's own heart requesting that his son be spared. God denied his request. As men we wonder why God punished the son for the father's (David's) sins, but we know very little about spiritual realities and the ways of God. Let's assume for a moment that a person's spirit does not vary depending on their age at death - meaning that your spirit is the same whether the person is born dead or dies at the age of one hundred years old. If that is the case (which it might or might not be), then the punishment was on David, Bathsheba, and anyone else who would have loved the child. And it would be a reasonable assumption to think that the baby would go to heaven (which is a fairly common belief among Christians).

God reminds us that our sins hurt others and that He can punish us during our physical lives. God also shows us that He can be merciful. In the story that Wayne referenced, David numbered the people. Then God gave David three choices.

2 Samuel 24:10-18
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now David’s heart troubled him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O Lord, please take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]When David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying, [SUP]12 [/SUP]“Go and speak to David, ‘Thus the Lord says, “I am offering you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I will do to you.”’” [SUP]13 [/SUP]So Gad came to David and told him, and said to him, “Shall seven years of famine come to you in your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days’ pestilence in your land? Now consider and see what answer I shall return to Him who sent me.” [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let us now fall into the hand of the Lord for His mercies are great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man.”

[SUP]15 [/SUP]So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning until the appointed time, and seventy thousand men of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. [SUP]16 [/SUP]When the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the calamity and said to the angel who destroyed the people, “It is enough! Now relax your hand!” And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then David spoke to the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking down the people, and said, “Behold, it is I who have sinned, and it is I who have done wrong; but these sheep, what have they done? Please let Your hand be against me and against my father’s house.”


David chose God because he knew that God was loving and merciful...and far too often men are not!
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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#60
Re: HELP! I Just Watched An In Depth & Unorthodox Bible Study Video That Shook My Fai

Romans 1:16-32
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,[SUP]19 [/SUP]because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing to be wise, they became fools, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, [SUP]27 [/SUP]and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, [SUP]29 [/SUP]being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, [SUP]30 [/SUP]slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [SUP]31 [/SUP]without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; [SUP]32 [/SUP]and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.