HG verses HL

[FranC]

That is nonsense...the term was coined by Dr. Michael Brown who doesn't believe in some aspects of what is taught by others in the body of Christ.

And it is a complete lie that Prince says there is no repentance for the believer in Christ


It simply amazes me how so-called ministers of the gospel can just act so deceitfully in their representation of others in the body of Christ.


Since the term has been used in a derogatory way - Brown and Prince have gotten together to discuss their different views if anyone wants to know the truth - here is a recent article from Dr. Brown discussing his meeting with Pastor Joseph Prince.

https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/in-the-line-of-fire/62639-my-meeting-with-joseph-prince


As to the lie that Pastor prince doesn't believe in repentance - Let's hear it from the "horse's mouth" himself. Perhaps this will stop the malice and slander from others.


[video=youtube;TDgqUP2-FOw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDgqUP2-FOw[/video]

I believe Angela might be talking about asking for forgiveness - NOT repentacne.

I've listened to Prince for years, off and on. I love how he teaches.
He does, however, teach hyper grace.

He DOES believe in REPENTANCE.

He DOES NOT believe that we're supposed to ask for FORGIVENESS because ALL our sins have already been forgiven:
Past, Present and Future. He says this many times.

This IS an aspect of hypergrace. It states that God's grace is so great that we are not required to do anything for Him but Believe, and we are not to ask forgiveness because we are already forgiven.

Is God's grace no longer sufficient?
It has to be Hyper now???

I say God's grace is sufficient and we are to obey Jesus' teachings.


Mathew 4:17

New American Standard Bible
From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."


1 John 1:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe Angela might be talking about asking for forgiveness - NOT repentacne.

I've listened to Prince for years, off and on. I love how he teaches.
He does, however, teach hyper grace.

He DOES believe in REPENTANCE.

He DOES NOT believe that we're supposed to ask for FORGIVENESS because ALL our sins have already been forgiven:
Past, Present and Future. He says this many times.

This IS an aspect of hypergrace. It states that God's grace is so great that we are not required to do anything for Him but Believe, and we are not to ask forgiveness because we are already forgiven.

Is God's grace no longer sufficient?
It has to be Hyper now???

I say God's grace is sufficient and we are to obey Jesus' teachings.


Mathew 4:17

New American Standard Bible
From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."


1 John 1:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Well... the word "repentance" is different from forgiveness of sins and confession but let's see what the "horse's mouth" actually says about it.

People are free to agree or dis-agree but at the very least let's not be deceitful and say that something else is being said.


[video=youtube;RpUrua961Nk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpUrua961Nk[/video]

 

[RamahDesjardin]

Well that raises a philosophical question... If "apologizing" is an action we choose to do, then wouldn't that come under "not by works lest no man should boast" as Reformed teachers tell us? Seems like he is just taking grace to its logical conclusion.

 

[Grace777x70]

Well that raises a philosophical question... If "apologizing" is an action we choose to do, then wouldn't that come under "not by works lest no man should boast" as Reformed teachers tell us? Seems like he is just taking grace to its logical conclusion.

Good question.

Jesus said "He who have been forgiven much - loves much."

 

[loveme1]

Unmerited favour... you don't deserve it by you are given it.. GOD is Gracious but He does not like being taken advantage of.. He does not deserve to be treated ungratefully....

All through the generations He pleaded for Repentance and had to take action to prevent evil becoming more rampant. GOD is just and Righteous always.

In a show of love He gave His only Begotten Son as a sacrifice to conquer the wage of sin for those that believe.. if this does not break you and tears roll then what will? We could not save ourselves... we were off to the pit without Grace, Love and Truth bestowed upon us.

We are spoilt children with a loving Heavenly Father.

Time to humble ourselves and give love back.

 

[notmyown]

Well that raises a philosophical question... If "apologizing" is an action we choose to do, then wouldn't that come under "not by works lest no man should boast" as Reformed teachers tell us? Seems like he is just taking grace to its logical conclusion.

those pesky Reformed teachers, quoting the Bible. lol

i think we ought not conflate the ground of our justification with its fruit.

 

[FranC]

Well... the word "repentance" is different from forgiveness of sins and confession but let's see what the "horse's mouth" actually says about it.

People are free to agree or dis-agree but at the very least let's not be deceitful and say that something else is being said.


[video=youtube;RpUrua961Nk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpUrua961Nk[/video]

Grace,
He does seem to b e putting the horse before the cart.

He's saying that we confess our sins BECAUSE WE'RE ALREADY FORGIVEN!

Just listened to some of it.
The rest will have to wait.
Later.

I have though heard him say many many times:

"and our sins He will remember NO MORE!"

He opens his program with these words.
We know that God does not remember our sins --- so WHY say it repeatedly?
Because he's really saying asking for forgiveness is not necessay.

He must have received some slack on this and is trying to fix himself up to be accepted by more people.
I'm not sure and can't insist if I'm not sure.

Later.

 

[RamahDesjardin]

those pesky Reformed teachers, quoting the Bible. lol

i think we ought not conflate the ground of our justification with its fruit.

So our words and actions are the natural result of God working through us? And by this we know who is being used by God? That sounds an awful lot like the "law" teachers.

Do our actions have any relation to our salvation, or not?

 

[notmyown]

So our words and actions are the natural result of God working through us? And by this we know who is being used by God? That sounds an awful lot like the "law" teachers.

Do our actions have any relation to our salvation, or not?

salvation is predicated on the Person and Work of Christ. full stop.

that is what i meant by the fruit of justification. the saved will strive to obey God. they have a new nature, a new heart and new desires.

 

[RamahDesjardin]

salvation is predicated on the Person and Work of Christ. full stop.

that is what i meant by the fruit of justification. the saved will strive to obey God. they have a new nature, a new heart and new desires.

Please excuse me for laboring the point. I'm just trying to understand.

Both sides seem to say that true Christians innately strive to obey God because He ingrafted new desires inside them. I don't understand where the disagreement is.

 

[Grace777x70]

salvation is predicated on the Person and Work of Christ. full stop.

that is what i meant by the fruit of justification. the saved will strive to obey God. they have a new nature, a new heart and new desires.

Well said!

Now we need to feed us Christians with the proper nutrients of the love and grace of our loving Father and the Lord Jesus Christ to us so that we can grow in Him.

It is all by grace through faith in what He has already done on the cross and resurrection.

Colossians 2:6-8 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord,so walk in Him,

[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

 

[notmyown]

Please excuse me for laboring the point. I'm just trying to understand.

Both sides seem to say that true Christians innately strive to obey God because He ingrafted new desires inside them. I don't understand where the disagreement is.

no problem! and at times, neither do i.

i believe the basic disagreement is theological. the terms can be confusing, but it seems to go like this. either:

A) we must obey God in order to be saved

B) " ♪ don't you worry 'bout a thing ♪ " (not sure you're old enough to remember that old song. haha)

but see Ezekiel 36:26-38, and ask Who is doing all these things, and for Whose glory?
God saves His people unilaterally... monergistically. but i believe sanctification to be synergistic, in that we cooperate with God because we are now able to. the glory and merit is all His, because it is He Who enables us in the first place.

i'm glad you joined us.

 

[notmyown]

Colossians 2:6-8 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord,so walk in Him,

[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

forgive me for snipping your post? these are such good examples of imperatives based on indicatives.

you must and are able to so walk in Him (imperative) BECAUSE you have received Christ (indicative).

even the gratitude, which is commanded, is based in the indicative of 'being firmly rooted'... what God in Christ has already done.

"Without Me, you can no nothing." remember the Greek!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is the sort of thread that makes Christian doctrine so confusing and frustrating for young people. We can't even get a straight answer on the meaning of the word grace.

Thats because people do not interpret the word by the word, the interpret it by their belief, to make it fit what they believe

 

[eternally-gratefull]

salvation is predicated on the Person and Work of Christ. full stop.

that is what i meant by the fruit of justification. the saved will strive to obey God. they have a new nature, a new heart and new desires.

Amen, unlike before where sin was or normal nature, as new believers and new creatures, sin is now like poison, it is against our nature, where serving in love is our new nature.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please excuse me for laboring the point. I'm just trying to understand.

Both sides seem to say that true Christians innately strive to obey God because He ingrafted new desires inside them. I don't understand where the disagreement is.

The disagreement is one believes we are saved or maintain salvation, the other think they are a natural result, or a byproduct of salvation

 

[notmyown]

Amen, unlike before where sin was or normal nature, as new believers and new creatures, sin is now like poison, it is against our nature, where serving in love is our new nature.

indeed! and

... in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. (Eph 4:23-24)

 

[UnderGrace]

Exactly!!!

Apologizing for sin can absolutely be false humility and a boast. Faith is what pleases God and Jesus is the object of our faith.

Well that raises a philosophical question... If "apologizing" is an action we choose to do, then wouldn't that come under "not by works lest no man should boast" as Reformed teachers tell us? Seems like he is just taking grace to its logical conclusion.