History of The Old and New Covenants: A Lesson in the Law and Grace.

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Redeemed2015

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2014
111
14
18
#1
I was raised much like some of you in a denomination. From going to Sunday School as a small child to singing the songs and learning the heart-warming messages in the early bible stories. Like many of you I listened to the words of a Pastor/Evangelist/Guest Speaker, I heard what THEY said the bible was teaching and I blindly accepted it because hey, they probably know more than me. I mean they went to seminary and have all the degrees and backing of the Southern Baptist Convention or whatever organization that claims to have the authority to declare whether or not someone knows enough about the bible to be a Pastor. It wasn't until I began to study for myself that I began to learn that these men were wrong. And they were wrong about A LOT.


I first began to become persuaded by the words of the bible around the age of 16 or 17. I had been saved since I was 12 and had been reading and studying scripture EVERYDAY since then. I carried a bible to class everyday in school from grades 8 - 12. I lead studies. I lead people in the "Prayer of Salvation"(which is one thing I came to learn isn't found in scripture). I lead small groups, taught lessons, was a leader in my Church from the age of 15 before moving churches and then being placed into yet ANOTHER leadership position, which I stayed in for 3 years before leaving. I am in no way unlearned in scripture. From the time I was 14 I began to study and learn both Greek and Hebrew. I've traveled on mission trips, built churches, lead many to the LORD, helped lead discipleship programs. I've had the opportunity to travel to Israel, visit The Western Wall, speak to Torah Scholars, Rabbis, and even read for myself, in person, the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as numerous other manuscripts. I am in no way lacking in knowledge of scripture.


I do not say these things to boast but to bring to attention that I am not just some "Internet Scholar". I have studied, I have learned, I have taught, and by the measures of multiple denominaitonal authorities including the Southern Baptist Convention, Church of God, Assemblies of God, as well as others I am certified and ordained to Pastor churches under the umbrella of these denominations.


I digress. The entirety of Scripture is one fluid story. From Genesis to Revelations it is one story about one people, one nation, one bride being wed to one groom. Errors do not come from Scripture, but come from Men. Ideologies built around man and man's understanding is always going to fall short. From teachings of a "Rapture", a "Trinity", and widely accepted and in all reality modern teachings that aren't reflected in scripture, such as "Dispenationalism" and the arguing of "Exegesis"; The "church", that is the Modern Traditional Coorprative buildings and organizations filled with men who put their word above the word of God and would rather make the Scriptures say what they want them to say than actually admit their fault and live the way the Scripture teaches.


I was posed with a thought around the age of 15 from one Francis Chan, a popular teacher in the Christendom. Francis was speaking and he got on the topic of understanding scripture. He poses teh question: If it were you. Only you and the Bible, God's word. If it were you and the bible ALL ALONE on a desserted island, and you were to read this book what would you believe? If you were stripped of all background knowledge, no denominational bias, having never heard of the Bible or Jesus and you read this book that we hold in such high esteem, what would you walk away believing? Just you and God's word. I am willing to bet that no one who honestly and whole heartidly seeks after such truth, stripping away all other opinions and commentary, would leave that island believing the same way as you do now. We believe what we are taught to believe. So often have we taken the words of others as the authority in what is truth for no other reason than someone as a title attached to their name. Such a practice is demonstribly in error.


We have been taught to treat the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament" as two wholly different books for two completely different people:
The "Old Testament" was for the Jews and the "New Testament" is for the Christians, THIS IS IN ERROR.


The "Old Testament" is categorized into what is called "The Law(Torah)", The Prophets(Nevi'im), and The Writings(Ketuvim)

The Torah being the 5 books attributed to Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

The Prophets including: Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings(known as the Former Prophets).
As well as: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah, and Malachi(known as the Latter Prophets)

The Writings being a collections of Poetry, Narrative, and Other Writings: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Songs of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, and Chronicles.


The entirety of these books still follow the telling of a single story: That God, made man to fellowship and honor HIM. Mankind was to be a faithful Covenental bride. Mankind fell and became unrighteous due to disobedience to God's word. This leads to a division, a separation from God and Mankind. God would call those to HIMSELF who would honor and be faithful to HIM. HE chooses the descendants of Abraham to establish this Covenant. Abraham's descendants would become the Nation of Israel, the set apart people who were to be the Bride in the Covenant.

However the Nation of Israel was not exclusive to only those born of the seed of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. After the Exodus from Egypt God brings HIS set apart people, The Hebrews, to Mt. Sinai where the Nation(The People) to be called by the promise of Israel is wed to The Father. However the Nation was made up of more than the 12 Tribes which included: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Joseph(which would split into Manasseh and Ephraim), and Benjamin, The Nation also included "strangers" known as "sojourners". These people were among the "mixed multitude" and co-heirs to the Promise of Israel not of birth, but by faith. These strangers had no natural claim to the promise, but were included in the Promise because they chose to become Hebrews, to "cross-over" into Covenant with The Father.

After the 12 Tribes settled in the Kingdom of Israel, which would be ruled by Judges then Kings, there was a division. The Kingdom split into what is called the Northern and the Southern Kingdoms. The Northern Kingdom called Israel(Ephraim) including 10 of the 12 Tribes of Israel: Asher, Dan, Ephraim, Gad, Issachar, Manasseh, Naphtali, Reuben, Simeon, and Zebulun. And the Southern Kingdom called Judah was made up of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin. You should notice that the Tribe of Levi is not listed in either Kingdom. That is because the Tribe of Levi were the Priests of Israel and were responsible for maintaining the Temple, which included all of the Sacrifices and Appointed Times. This Tribe was spread across the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, responsible for holding the Tribes of Israel and the sojourners among them to the same standard and maintaining their relationship with The Father.

Eventually, The Northern Kingdom is conquered and the 10 Tribes are dispersed among the "nations"(goyim, gentiles, those out of Covenant). This is known as the Diaspora. All of this as a result of Israel's disobedience to God. Prior to the fall of the Northern Kingdom, God divorces Israel for being an unfaithful bride. It is then that God tells how the Old (Marriage) Covenant will be destroyed and how HE will reunite with the House of Israel and The House of Judah. HE does so through The Messiah, Jesus(Yeshua). Yeshua comes as God in the flesh. Lives in obedience to the Father, as we ALL should. Yeshua tells why He has come, "I come not but for the lose sheep of the House of Israel." In order for God to be reunited with HIS bride, Israel and Judah, according to HIS own laws the only way the Bride is free to marry another after being divorced is following the death of the Husband. God had to die, so that Israel could be released from the Old Covenant and the New could be established. Yeshua's death was for much more than the forgiveness of sin, which is breaking the Law. Yeshua's death also allowed for God to be reunited with HIS bride, lawfully. Yeshua came to unite the House of Israel and the House of Judah in covenant with the Father. To be a faithful bride to an honorable groom. That is the story between God and Mankind.


God made mankind to be a faithful bride. Mankind was unfaithful. God divorces HIS bride. God makes the ultimate sacrifice to pay for the unfaithfulness of HIS lost bride. God is able to reunite with HIS bride because of HIS sacrifice. It is simple.


God then calls HIS people to live a certain way. "Go and sin no more", "be set apart", "live righteously".


Scripture is explicit.
Sin is breaking the Law(1 John 3:4)
Grace is pardon for Sin, which is breaking the Law.
The Messiah, our Savior died, so that we may have Grace for the pardon of Sin, which is breaking the law.
The Gospel was given by the Messiah, our Savior who died, so that we may have Grace for the pardon of Sin, which is breaking the law.
In our Churches we hear the Preacher, proclaim the Gospel, given by the Messiah, our Savior who died so that we may have Grace, which is the pardon for Sin, which is breaking the law.


He who hates sin must uphold the Law. Whoever fights against the Law is upholding sin, whether you you like it or not.


Today, there are men who are fighting God's Law in Church.
The Scripture teaches us where there is no law, there is no sin.(Romans 4:15; 5:13)
If there is no sin, there is no need for Grace, which is pardon for Sin.
If we don't need Grace to be given by a Messiah who died to that we may have pardon for Sin.
Then we don't need a Savior, We don't need a Gospel which is the story of the Savior who died so that we may have Grace for the pardon of Sin.
If we don't need a Gospel, then the Preacher has nothing to say and the Church is left empty.


Yeshua's own word were explicit.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have come to fulfill the law and the Prophets. Sooner shall Heaven and Earth pass away than for one jot or tittle to ever pass away from the Law." -Matthew 5:17-18


Which begs the question, is the Earth still here? How then could you ever begin to believe the law to be done away with? If so, you make Yeshua a liar and by doing so call Him a sinner. Nullifying the very work done by God to reunite with HIS bride and negating the very salvation of you claim.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#2
The law was given for the purpose of helping man realize that he is unable to please God by his own efforts.

That brings man to the point of realizing his need for a Savior. The Law is not done away with; it still serves its purpose.

I no longer try to obey the Law because Jesus did it for me. If I could do it myself, He suffered for nothing.

The Holy Spirit works within me both to will and to do His good pleasure.
 

Redeemed2015

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2014
111
14
18
#3
The law was given for the purpose of helping man realize that he is unable to please God by his own efforts.

That brings man to the point of realizing his need for a Savior. The Law is not done away with; it still serves its purpose.

I no longer try to obey the Law because Jesus did it for me. If I could do it myself, He suffered for nothing.

The Holy Spirit works within me both to will and to do His good pleasure.
Please give a verse(preferably multiple)in proper context that indicate what you just said to be true.

The Law is said in Romans 7 to be "Holy, just, and good"
The Law in Psalms 19 is called "perfect" and "refreshing to the soul"
Not to mention that God tells us multiple times, again and again that HIS Law is eternal.(Psalms 119)

I no longer try to obey the Law because Jesus did it for me.
Nowhere in scripture can you find what you just said to be true. In fact you find just the opposite.
"He who says he abides in Him(Yeshua) must also walk just as He walked." -1 John 2:3
"Do we continue to sin(break the law) so that grace may abound? May it NEVER BE!" -Romans 6:1
"Do we nullify the law through faith? Not at all! Rather, we UPHOLD the law." -Romans 3:31

What you just described doing: to "no longer obey the law" is called sinning. Willfully sinning. Sin is the transgression of the Law, if you disobey the law, you sin. Messiah died to free you from sinning, which is the curse that comes when you break the law.

"I set before you today a blessing and a curse. Blessings if you keep my commandments and remember to do them. Curses if you do not." -Deuteronomy 11:26

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you that today I have set before you life and death, blessing or curse. Oh, that you would choose life! So that you and you children might live!" -Deuteronomy 30:19
 
Aug 8, 2017
315
4
0
#4
I was raised much like some of you in a denomination. From going to Sunday School as a small child to singing the songs and learning the heart-warming messages in the early bible stories. Like many of you I listened to the words of a Pastor/Evangelist/Guest Speaker, I heard what THEY said the bible was teaching and I blindly accepted it because hey, they probably know more than me. I mean they went to seminary and have all the degrees and backing of the Southern Baptist Convention or whatever organization that claims to have the authority to declare whether or not someone knows enough about the bible to be a Pastor. It wasn't until I began to study for myself that I began to learn that these men were wrong. And they were wrong about A LOT.


I first began to become persuaded by the words of the bible around the age of 16 or 17. I had been saved since I was 12 and had been reading and studying scripture EVERYDAY since then. I carried a bible to class everyday in school from grades 8 - 12. I lead studies. I lead people in the "Prayer of Salvation"(which is one thing I came to learn isn't found in scripture). I lead small groups, taught lessons, was a leader in my Church from the age of 15 before moving churches and then being placed into yet ANOTHER leadership position, which I stayed in for 3 years before leaving. I am in no way unlearned in scripture. From the time I was 14 I began to study and learn both Greek and Hebrew. I've traveled on mission trips, built churches, lead many to the LORD, helped lead discipleship programs. I've had the opportunity to travel to Israel, visit The Western Wall, speak to Torah Scholars, Rabbis, and even read for myself, in person, the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as numerous other manuscripts. I am in no way lacking in knowledge of scripture.


I do not say these things to boast but to bring to attention that I am not just some "Internet Scholar". I have studied, I have learned, I have taught, and by the measures of multiple denominaitonal authorities including the Southern Baptist Convention, Church of God, Assemblies of God, as well as others I am certified and ordained to Pastor churches under the umbrella of these denominations.


I digress. The entirety of Scripture is one fluid story. From Genesis to Revelations it is one story about one people, one nation, one bride being wed to one groom. Errors do not come from Scripture, but come from Men. Ideologies built around man and man's understanding is always going to fall short. From teachings of a "Rapture", a "Trinity", and widely accepted and in all reality modern teachings that aren't reflected in scripture, such as "Dispenationalism" and the arguing of "Exegesis"; The "church", that is the Modern Traditional Coorprative buildings and organizations filled with men who put their word above the word of God and would rather make the Scriptures say what they want them to say than actually admit their fault and live the way the Scripture teaches.


I was posed with a thought around the age of 15 from one Francis Chan, a popular teacher in the Christendom. Francis was speaking and he got on the topic of understanding scripture. He poses teh question: If it were you. Only you and the Bible, God's word. If it were you and the bible ALL ALONE on a desserted island, and you were to read this book what would you believe? If you were stripped of all background knowledge, no denominational bias, having never heard of the Bible or Jesus and you read this book that we hold in such high esteem, what would you walk away believing? Just you and God's word. I am willing to bet that no one who honestly and whole heartidly seeks after such truth, stripping away all other opinions and commentary, would leave that island believing the same way as you do now. We believe what we are taught to believe. So often have we taken the words of others as the authority in what is truth for no other reason than someone as a title attached to their name. Such a practice is demonstribly in error.


We have been taught to treat the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament" as two wholly different books for two completely different people:
The "Old Testament" was for the Jews and the "New Testament" is for the Christians, THIS IS IN ERROR.


The "Old Testament" is categorized into what is called "The Law(Torah)", The Prophets(Nevi'im), and The Writings(Ketuvim)

The Torah being the 5 books attributed to Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

The Prophets including: Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings(known as the Former Prophets).
As well as: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah, and Malachi(known as the Latter Prophets)

The Writings being a collections of Poetry, Narrative, and Other Writings: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Songs of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, and Chronicles.


The entirety of these books still follow the telling of a single story: That God, made man to fellowship and honor HIM. Mankind was to be a faithful Covenental bride. Mankind fell and became unrighteous due to disobedience to God's word. This leads to a division, a separation from God and Mankind. God would call those to HIMSELF who would honor and be faithful to HIM. HE chooses the descendants of Abraham to establish this Covenant. Abraham's descendants would become the Nation of Israel, the set apart people who were to be the Bride in the Covenant.

However the Nation of Israel was not exclusive to only those born of the seed of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. After the Exodus from Egypt God brings HIS set apart people, The Hebrews, to Mt. Sinai where the Nation(The People) to be called by the promise of Israel is wed to The Father. However the Nation was made up of more than the 12 Tribes which included: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Joseph(which would split into Manasseh and Ephraim), and Benjamin, The Nation also included "strangers" known as "sojourners". These people were among the "mixed multitude" and co-heirs to the Promise of Israel not of birth, but by faith. These strangers had no natural claim to the promise, but were included in the Promise because they chose to become Hebrews, to "cross-over" into Covenant with The Father.

After the 12 Tribes settled in the Kingdom of Israel, which would be ruled by Judges then Kings, there was a division. The Kingdom split into what is called the Northern and the Southern Kingdoms. The Northern Kingdom called Israel(Ephraim) including 10 of the 12 Tribes of Israel: Asher, Dan, Ephraim, Gad, Issachar, Manasseh, Naphtali, Reuben, Simeon, and Zebulun. And the Southern Kingdom called Judah was made up of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin. You should notice that the Tribe of Levi is not listed in either Kingdom. That is because the Tribe of Levi were the Priests of Israel and were responsible for maintaining the Temple, which included all of the Sacrifices and Appointed Times. This Tribe was spread across the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, responsible for holding the Tribes of Israel and the sojourners among them to the same standard and maintaining their relationship with The Father.

Eventually, The Northern Kingdom is conquered and the 10 Tribes are dispersed among the "nations"(goyim, gentiles, those out of Covenant). This is known as the Diaspora. All of this as a result of Israel's disobedience to God. Prior to the fall of the Northern Kingdom, God divorces Israel for being an unfaithful bride. It is then that God tells how the Old (Marriage) Covenant will be destroyed and how HE will reunite with the House of Israel and The House of Judah. HE does so through The Messiah, Jesus(Yeshua). Yeshua comes as God in the flesh. Lives in obedience to the Father, as we ALL should. Yeshua tells why He has come, "I come not but for the lose sheep of the House of Israel." In order for God to be reunited with HIS bride, Israel and Judah, according to HIS own laws the only way the Bride is free to marry another after being divorced is following the death of the Husband. God had to die, so that Israel could be released from the Old Covenant and the New could be established. Yeshua's death was for much more than the forgiveness of sin, which is breaking the Law. Yeshua's death also allowed for God to be reunited with HIS bride, lawfully. Yeshua came to unite the House of Israel and the House of Judah in covenant with the Father. To be a faithful bride to an honorable groom. That is the story between God and Mankind.


God made mankind to be a faithful bride. Mankind was unfaithful. God divorces HIS bride. God makes the ultimate sacrifice to pay for the unfaithfulness of HIS lost bride. God is able to reunite with HIS bride because of HIS sacrifice. It is simple.


God then calls HIS people to live a certain way. "Go and sin no more", "be set apart", "live righteously".


Scripture is explicit.
Sin is breaking the Law(1 John 3:4)
Grace is pardon for Sin, which is breaking the Law.
The Messiah, our Savior died, so that we may have Grace for the pardon of Sin, which is breaking the law.
The Gospel was given by the Messiah, our Savior who died, so that we may have Grace for the pardon of Sin, which is breaking the law.
In our Churches we hear the Preacher, proclaim the Gospel, given by the Messiah, our Savior who died so that we may have Grace, which is the pardon for Sin, which is breaking the law.


He who hates sin must uphold the Law. Whoever fights against the Law is upholding sin, whether you you like it or not.


Today, there are men who are fighting God's Law in Church.
The Scripture teaches us where there is no law, there is no sin.(Romans 4:15; 5:13)
If there is no sin, there is no need for Grace, which is pardon for Sin.
If we don't need Grace to be given by a Messiah who died to that we may have pardon for Sin.
Then we don't need a Savior, We don't need a Gospel which is the story of the Savior who died so that we may have Grace for the pardon of Sin.
If we don't need a Gospel, then the Preacher has nothing to say and the Church is left empty.


Yeshua's own word were explicit.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have come to fulfill the law and the Prophets. Sooner shall Heaven and Earth pass away than for one jot or tittle to ever pass away from the Law." -Matthew 5:17-18


Which begs the question, is the Earth still here? How then could you ever begin to believe the law to be done away with? If so, you make Yeshua a liar and by doing so call Him a sinner. Nullifying the very work done by God to reunite with HIS bride and negating the very salvation of you claim.
I was with you probably for about the first half. But the second half we went separate ways.

So tell me what is it that changed. Cause what your saying seems pretty much what we were taught, You know Jesus is God and all that good stuff.

What did u realize that was diffrent
 

Redeemed2015

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2014
111
14
18
#5
I was with you probably for about the first half. But the second half we went separate ways.
Where did I lose you?

So tell me what is it that changed. Cause what your saying seems pretty much what we were taught, You know Jesus is God and all that good stuff.
You were taught to obey the commandments of God? Including all dietary restrictions, observing the Appointed Times, keeping the Sabbath? Because, that was what this post was about: Keeping the Commandments of God. The Law still applies to believers.

What did u realize that was diffrent
I realized that the majority of believers are still living in sin, deny they are sinning, and are living in direct contradiction to the scriptures. They claim to have blessings but reject and rebel against the One who gives these blessings. They speak of love but don't know what it is to love God, because they reject the very words and commands that He has given us to love HIM.

"For this is the love of God, that you keep HIS commandments; and HIS commandments are not burdensome." - 1 John 5:3-4
"If you love me, keep my commandments." -John 14:15
"Anyone who loves me will obey my instruction." -John 14:23
 
Aug 8, 2017
315
4
0
#6
What about the First Commandment.
Is that commandment being kept?
 

Redeemed2015

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2014
111
14
18
#7
What about the First Commandment.
Is that commandment being kept?
You are referencing in Matthew 22:37, Luke 10:27, and Mark 12:30 in which Yeshua says, "Love the LORD your God with all of your heart, all of your soul, and with all of your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment."

You must realize not only what it is to Love God which is found in 1 John 5:3-4 as well as other verse but also must realize that Yeshua wasn't saying anything new here, He was directly quoting Deuteronomy 6:5
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,046
514
113
#8
Please give a verse(preferably multiple)in proper context that indicate what you just said to be true.

The Law is said in Romans 7 to be "Holy, just, and good"
The Law in Psalms 19 is called "perfect" and "refreshing to the soul"
Not to mention that God tells us multiple times, again and again that HIS Law is eternal.(Psalms 119)



Nowhere in scripture can you find what you just said to be true. In fact you find just the opposite.
"He who says he abides in Him(Yeshua) must also walk just as He walked." -1 John 2:3
"Do we continue to sin(break the law) so that grace may abound? May it NEVER BE!" -Romans 6:1
"Do we nullify the law through faith? Not at all! Rather, we UPHOLD the law." -Romans 3:31

What you just described doing: to "no longer obey the law" is called sinning. Willfully sinning. Sin is the transgression of the Law, if you disobey the law, you sin. Messiah died to free you from sinning, which is the curse that comes when you break the law.

"I set before you today a blessing and a curse. Blessings if you keep my commandments and remember to do them. Curses if you do not." -Deuteronomy 11:26

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you that today I have set before you life and death, blessing or curse. Oh, that you would choose life! So that you and you children might live!" -Deuteronomy 30:19
Ok redeemed, you are completely misunderstanding the point that marc is making. The same Apostle Paul that you quoting from Romans is the same Paul who said the following at Galatians 3 starting at vs23, "But before faith came we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. vs24, Therefore the Law has become our tutor TO LEAD US TO CHRIST, that we may be justified by faith. vs25, But now that faith has come WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE TUTOR. vs26, For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,"

In other words, keeping the law will not save anyone. This "DOES NOT MEAN" the ten commandments are not to be obeyed. It means that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ and not justified by keeping the law. The law is what leads us to Christ, hence the word "tutor." Even the Old Testament saints were not justified by keeping the law or even the ten commandments. I highly suggest you read the "Faith" chapter which is Hebrews 11.

I also suggest you read Romans 4 (the whole chapter) where Paul says Abraham was justified by faith because he believed God and it was recokoned to him as righteousness. Now, getting back to your LOOOOONG post which I did not read all of it, what point are you trying to make? You sound a little angry to me or perhaps a little discouraged, why? I also see your all of 20 years old, I have a bunion older that you. You should be rejoicing in Christ and bringing others to Him thereby making disciples. Finally, don't take what I'm saying as a "put down" or even personal, live every moment to the fullest. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Last edited:
Aug 8, 2017
315
4
0
#9
You are referencing in Matthew 22:37, Luke 10:27, and Mark 12:30 in which Yeshua says, "Love the LORD your God with all of your heart, all of your soul, and with all of your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment."

You must realize not only what it is to Love God which is found in 1 John 5:3-4 as well as other verse but also must realize that Yeshua wasn't saying anything new here, He was directly quoting Deuteronomy 6:5
I was referring to the 1st Commandment
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"
 

Redeemed2015

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2014
111
14
18
#10
Ok redeemed, you are completely misunderstanding the point that marc is making. The same Apostle Paul that you quoting from Romans is the same Paul who said the following at Galatians 3 starting at vs23, "But before faith came we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. vs24, Therefore the Law has become our tutor TO LEAD US TO CHRIST, that we may be justified by faith. vs25, But now that faith has come WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE TUTOR. vs26, For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,"
I have not misunderstood anything. You have misunderstood me, if anything.

In other words, keeping the law will not save anyone. This "DOES NOT MEAN" the ten commandments are not to be obeyed. It means that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ and not justified by keeping the law. The law is what leads us to Christ, hence the word "tutor." Even the Old Testament saints were not justified by keeping the law or even the ten commandments. I highly suggest you read the "Faith" chapter which is Hebrews 11.
At no point did I ever make the claim that we are to keep the Law in order to achieve salvation. I can both agree and prove that with scripture. The Law cannot save. That was never my claim, which you would have known had you actually read everything. Neither Galatians 3 or Hebrews 11 negate anything that I said.

I also suggest you read Romans 4 (the whole chapter) where Paul says Abraham was justified by faith because he believed God and it was recokoned to him as righteousness.
Again, Romans 4 does not negate anything that I've stated. Secondly, it was faith and trust that credited righteousness unto Abraham. Belief does not indicate faith or trust nor does it credit salvation, for as Yeshua said, "Even the demons believe and they shudder in fear".


Now, getting back to your LOOOOONG post which I did not read all of it, what point are you trying to make? You sound a little angry to me, why?
Seems an odd thing to reply to a post without reading what it says. Frivolously replying has no affect. I am not angry, if you read me as being angry that fault is none of mine, but yours. I am merely stating my case supported by scripture, as you would have known if you had read it.

My point is clear: We, as those who are called by the name of the Messiah are also called to walk as He walked, which is in obedience to the Law. Far too many misunderstand Paul and his writings, substitute their words over God's as well as their tradition over God's instruction, this has resulted in FAR too many who will indeed be called "least in the Kingdom" according to Yeshua in Mark 5:19


I also see your all of 20 years old, I have a bunion older that you.
Seems an odd thing to bring up. As age plays no matter and holds no weight when it comes to whether or not what someone is saying is truth, as scripture can testify to. Also, by age 17 I was already teaching Bible classes to those who ranged from ages 19-76.

I am questioning the purpose of your reply as it served no purpose for discussion or even scriptural relevance either for or against my post.
 

Redeemed2015

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2014
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#11
I was referring to the 1st Commandment
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"
Well, that would be the first commandment from Mt. Sinai, part of what you know as the 10 Commandments. However there are much more than 10 commandments given by God and apply to Mankind. There are approx. 613 Commandments given in the Torah. Some apply to men, others to women. There are laws for all of man kind and laws for specific people, such as: Kings, Judges, Farmers, Husbands, Wives, Children, Levites, etc. No one person can fit into every category, therefore not all 613 can apply to any one person, including Yeshua.

Now, it Yeshua who quoted the words of His Father in Deuteronomy 6, known as the Shema and declares this commandment as being the "first and greatest commandment."
"Shema(Hear) 'O Israel, the LORD your GOD, The LORD is One. You shall love the LORD your God with all of your heart, all of your soul, and all of your mind."

I will take His word over yours.

Now, I don't see the relevance of asking about that specific commandment but to answer your question, I can only speak for myself, and Yes, I do keep that commandment as well as ALL others that apply to me. As should you and ALL others who claim to be "Chris-like" and say they follow the Messiah.
 

Redeemed2015

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2014
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#13
Where were you teaching at. And leading prayer isn't teaching.
I don't see how that is relevant but if you must know at the time I was attending an Assemblies of God congregation. It was a large church ranging anywhere from 650-800 members(depending on the time of year). I taught classes on both The Old and New Testament. Usually Old Testament. Originally it was a college age class a Bible Study Group ages 19-26, but after about a month I was getting so many people that wanted to sit in on my lectures and discussions that the Head Pastor opened the class up to anyone. I averaged about 90-100 people every week who came to learn.
 
Aug 8, 2017
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#14
I don't see how that is relevant but if you must know at the time I was attending an Assemblies of God congregation. It was a large church ranging anywhere from 650-800 members(depending on the time of year). I taught classes on both The Old and New Testament. Usually Old Testament. Originally it was a college age class a Bible Study Group ages 19-26, but after about a month I was getting so many people that wanted to sit in on my lectures and discussions that the Head Pastor opened the class up to anyone. I averaged about 90-100 people every week who came to learn.
Well that is commendable you truly are blessed to have such a great understanding at such a young age.
I gotta admit that at 17 I was not at all as knowledgeable in regards to the Bible.

Sorry if I imposed on you thread,
God Bless
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#15
1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

Psalms 111:9, “He sent redemption to His people, He has commanded His covenant forever. Set-apart and awesome is His Name."

Two Greek words, neos and kainos, have been rendered as “new” in almost all translations. The latter’s meaning differs from the former, and is derived from the verb kainoo, which means “to make new.” The Hebrew equivalent of this verb is ḥadash, which means “to renew.” For this reason we have rendered kainos as “fresh” or as “renewed.”

Psalm 51:10, “Create in me a clean heart, O Yah; and renew a right spirit within me.”

Malakyah 3:6, “For I am YHWH, I change not; therefore you sons of Yaaqob are not consumed.”

Psalm 33:11 YHWH's counsel stands forever! The thoughts of His heart stand for all generations! Praise You, YHWH!”

Isayah 46:9-10, “Remember the former things of old, for I am YHWH, and there is none else; I am YHWH, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times those things which are not yet done, saying; My a counsel will stand, and I will fulfill all My plan.”

Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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#16
I do not say these things to boast but to bring to attention that I am not just some "Internet Scholar". I have studied, I have learned, I have taught, and by the measures of multiple denominaitonal authorities including the Southern Baptist Convention, Church of God, Assemblies of God, as well as others I am certified and ordained to Pastor churches under the umbrella of these denominations.
Actually a covenant is not a law, but a contract. While they might seem similar in effect however there is a substantial difference between the two.

A law is a enforceable requirement made by one party upon another party which obligates the one party to comply with the requirement made upon them by the other party once enacted.

A covenant is a legal agreement that requires one party to comply with the requirement made by the other party once accepted.

A law does not require the mutual consent (agreement of both parties to the requirement) nor that the party receive consider (blessing) for obedience to the requirement.

A covenant requires the mutual consent to both parties to the agreement, in addition the agreement must provide consideration (blessing) for compliance to the requirement.







 

Redeemed2015

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2014
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#17
Actually a covenant is not a law, but a contract. While they might seem similar in effect however there is a substantial difference between the two.
Who was arguing that the Covenant and Law are interchangeable terms?
 
May 11, 2014
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#18
Jesus came to confirm the abrahamic covenant

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law was added later.
According to the Apostles we are to keep the Royal Law in this day and age. Had sabbath and other things been required, I am sure Paul and others would have notified the Gentile churches. Yet in the New Testament no such commandments exist, although many commandments are to be found in the New Testament.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#19
What about the First Commandment.
Is that commandment being kept?
Are you talking about the first commandment of the old covenant or are you talking about the first commandment In the new covenant?:)
 
May 11, 2014
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#20
I am interested you said you were teaching in the Assemblies of God, who are pentecostals and they would disagree with your conclusions about the Sabbath, dietary restrictions and appointed times. Have you changed your views since then or was the head pastor just extremely irresponsible by confusing the flock by allowing conflicting teachings?