How can those with the Spirit hold contradictory views?

[KennethC]

I suppose it is about getting the correct impression, the true knowledge, of how exactly you were saved to begin with.

How you were drawn to the Lord Jesus Christ.

You can have the incorrect impression and the false knowledge that it was by your works that caused you to come closer to Christ and attain salvation. This false knowledge would cause you to think that you must maintain your salvation by your works as well. And if you don't have enough then you can lose it.

The True Knowledge of Salvation is that it is the Gift of God. God drew you to His Son Jesus Christ. God Provided everything you needed to come to Him. God lead you step by step to Himself. You responded. You responded exactly how everyone else responds when they are drawn to God. You are special, in that God chose you, but you aren't special in your response to Him.

God knows what it takes for you to cry out to Him. You don't believe me that God is the cause of that? Read the book of Jonah. Read how the children of Israel were drawn out of Egypt. Its by the work of God.

Our view of God doesn't change who He is. We are weak, but He is strong. If we were strong enough to maintain our salvation through works we would never have needed Christ to begin with.

And right there is that false impression and stance against people like me.

For I do not instruct that salvation comes by our own effort and works or that we maintain salvation by our works.

Salvation comes from a continuous faith in the Lord and is maintained by that faith, not by works.
The problem however that some do not want to admit is that a true faith in Christ is an active one, even Jesus Himself said those who have faith in Him are those who do what He said.

Those who do not do are said to be deceived and have no foundation built on Christ.

Salvation is a promised gift that comes to those who continue in the faith as Apostle Paul clearly says and repeats.

Personal works do not get one or maintain ones salvation, but the works/actions/speech of a person are proof that one is saved.
This is why faith without works is dead because the Holy Spirit who's fruits will guide our actions will be evident in front of others, without those fruits the Lord says they will be cut off and burned.

 

[Grandpa]

And right there is that false impression and stance against people like me.

For I do not instruct that salvation comes by our own effort and works or that we maintain salvation by our works.

Salvation comes from a continuous faith in the Lord and is maintained by that faith, not by works.
The problem however that some do not want to admit is that a true faith in Christ is an active one, even Jesus Himself said those who have faith in Him are those who do what He said.

Those who do not do are said to be deceived and have no foundation built on Christ.

Salvation is a promised gift that comes to those who continue in the faith as Apostle Paul clearly says and repeats.

Personal works do not get one or maintain ones salvation, but the works/actions/speech of a person are proof that one is saved.
This is why faith without works is dead because the Holy Spirit who's fruits will guide our actions will be evident in front of others, without those fruits the Lord says they will be cut off and burned.

Its not a false impression.

Your own words prove it out.

You don't believe Salvation is a gift. You believe you earn salvation by maintaining your faith.

Its black and white. Its one or the other. Its a gift or its earned. If it can be taken away because you lack some attribute its not really a gift. Its a loan based on merit.

 

[KennethC]

Its not a false impression.

Your own words prove it out.

You don't believe Salvation is a gift. You believe you earn salvation by maintaining your faith.

Its black and white. Its one or the other. Its a gift or its earned. If it can be taken away because you lack some attribute its not really a gift. Its a loan based on merit.

It is a promise that is received by keeping in the faith of Jesus, which the bible clearly says is an active faith.

If you do not like that then you need to ask God in prayer about this because Jesus, Paul, James, John, and Peter all show this that a true faith is an active one. If one does not have faith in the Lord, or fall/depart from that faith the scriptures clearly show that those will not receive eternal life.

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

1 John 2:25
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

 

[Grandpa]

So if someone believes they have received this gift of Eternal Life from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and that He won't take it back, would you say that is the very act of faith that is required to "keep in the Faith of Jesus"?

Or do you think it will go to the double minded, always wondering and always worried if they did enough, acted enough, to keep in the faith of Jesus? To deserve Salvation by their strength and perseverance...

Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

 

[KennethC]

So if someone believes they have received this gift of Eternal Life from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and that He won't take it back, would you say that is the very act of faith that is required to "keep in the Faith of Jesus"?

Or do you think it will go to the double minded, always wondering and always worried if they did enough, acted enough, to keep in the faith of Jesus? To deserve Salvation by their strength and perseverance...

Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

The problem there is that we have not received eternal life yet, for that comes at the day of redemption.

Apostle John clearly in his epistle shows the eternal life we have in us now is that of the Holy Spirit, not our own physical possession yet. We have confidence, assurance, and know that we will receive it, and even Peter says it is reserved in heaven for us and will be revealed in the end.

1 Peter 1:4-5
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Grandpa]

I don't see a problem.

A promise from God has got to be better than a check from your bank and if you write a check I'm sure you and the person you give it to has faith that it is what it says it is.

I will never leave you nor forsake you. A promise from God. Better than a check.

We're not perfected right this second but we are saved, right this second. We have the down payment of the Holy Spirit as Gods "check" that we "cash" when we get there.

I don't expect to convince you. If the Holy Spirit hasn't already what can I do or say?

 

[atwhatcost]

I don't see a problem.

A promise from God has got to be better than a check from your bank and if you write a check I'm sure you and the person you give it to has faith that it is what it says it is.

I will never leave you nor forsake you. A promise from God. Better than a check.

We're not perfected right this second but we are saved, right this second. We have the down payment of the Holy Spirit as Gods "check" that we "cash" when we get there.

I don't expect to convince you. If the Holy Spirit hasn't already what can I do or say?

Actually, you're more literal than you think. A check is a redemption slip promising the bearer something. Jesus redeemed us. We're paid in full on his account.

(I can't help it. I was a bookkeeper. lol)

 

[VCO]

KennethC recently made a thread about asking the Lord for understanding on a topic and the next thing he knows he is reading the word of God and the answer comes to his question. He happens upon it, and says its a work of the Holy Spirit. No doubt, it surely is. People share such experiences across Christian circles. That isn't what is being debated.

My question, however, is how can believers say the Lord led them to a specific truth and yet the believers reach different conclusions? Who then, did not hear from the Spirit? People will say the Holy Spirit gives them revelation and then that revelation contradicts what other believers have concluded. For example, eternal security. Kenneth says the Lord showed him believers can lose their salvation, and then provided some verses in a post recently. So, what if we have another believer saying the Holy Spirit showed him his assurance in Christ and posts verses? Who is right? Who is wrong?

What do we conclude from two believers reaching contradicting statements that are believed to be Spirit led? Is it possible that the person could be sincerely wrong and what was thought to be from the Spirit is not? I've attended a church service before where the pastor was getting these doctrines out of left field and from some "prophet", even so according to him by the Spirit such as double baptism. Where one must be baptized again to be under the authority of the pastor, as a covering. So, in a new church you move to, you need to be baptized again. So here we have someone saying the Spirit led him to this truth, but also know of others who know we are to be baptized once. What do we conclude from this? If someone reaches a different conclusion from you, and say its from the Spirit, does it affect how you receive what they say? Does it make you inquire, or ask the Holy Spirit yourself how they reached that conclusion and whether it is right?

Basically, how do you respond to supposed Spirit led answers? Does it perk up your ears and then you seek out what was learned and see if its biblical? Does it lead you to the Spirit as Teacher and ask if what was said was actually of Him? What is your response?

PS: This is not to put KennethC on blast, but his thread inspired me to make a thread on this topic that I have pondered in the past.

Your questions assume that having the Holy Spirit (Born Again), being FILLED by the Spirit, and Spiritual Maturity are all the SAME THING; when they are not.

Having the Spirit does not mean you FILLED with the SPIRIT, which means totally under the control of the Holy Spirit at any given point in time. IN FACT the reality is that we struggle to KEEP FILLED with the Holy Spirit most of the time. UNFORTUNATELY in this mortal body of us Christians, the human spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. To become filled with the Spirit, one must fervently pray for it, and then TRUST HIM TOTALLY to answer that prayer, while focusing totally on what our LORD wants you to do. NO, I am not talking about some kind of charismatic experience!

I am talking about totally YIELDING TO HIS WILL, PURELY OUT OF FAITH. For example, even at the risk of ridicule, I have experienced being filled with the Holy Spirit numerous times; and NEVER was it anything like any Charismatic Experience. When I was in the Prison Ministry; I prayed earnestly and fervently every Sunday morning before Chapel Services when I was a Volunteer Protestant Chaplain in California Prisons. I prayed a second time as I stepped up to the pulpit, THEN I PUT MY WHOLE TRUST IN HIM TO GIVE ME THE WORDS HE WANTED ME TO TEACH ABOUT THE SUBJECT I PLANNED TO TEACH. Actually via TRUST IN HIM, HE gave me the subject to teach each week. I trusted Him to bring into my path something that HE wanted me to teach the next Sunday. Once He had revealed the Subject, I gathered the verses pertaining to that subject, studied them, printed ONLY the verses on one piece of paper with a nice border and an appropriate Bible picture; and NEVER in 12 years in the Pulpit Ministry did I ever pre-write what I was going to say. I TRUSTED HIM TOTALLY TO GIVE ME EVERY WORD OF THE SERMON. As I finished the opening prayer at the PULPIT, I trusted Him to FILL ME WITH HIS SPIRIT so that I could deliver that SERMON, and HE WAS FAITHFUL TO GIVE ME THAT SERMON EVERY SUNDAY. NOW, how long could I hang on to that BEING FILLED WITH HIS SPIRIT, after the Sermon was over. Usually not long, because I discovered, that as soon as the human mind, that is in tune with what the flesh wants, such as thinking about the food I would eat when I got home; the spiritual focus necessary to STAY FILLED with the Holy Spirit, is broken.

Therefore, since we humans CANNOT STAY FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AT ALL TIMES, as long as we are still in this MORTAL BODY, it is difficult for us to ALL BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT at the same time. NOW the other variable is the fact that we are all at different levels of Spiritual Maturity. Think back, and I am sure that you can think of examples of things that you can explain better NOW that you are more Spiritually Mature than when you were a Spiritual Youth. Spiritual Growth is directly proportional to your Spiritual Diet. A GENEROUS and Balanced Diet of Spiritual Food (HIS WORD - Milk, Bread, Honey, and Strong Meat) will raise one to Spiritual Maturity faster than a weak diet, such as the 10-15 minute Sermons in the Church that I was raised in.

THUS, because of the weakness of the FLESH, we have difficulty agreeing on all things.

 

[popeye]

Kinda funny how this thread attracts what it questions.

Seems they are literally oblivious to it.

Too funny

 

[Michael47]

Kinda funny how this thread attracts what it questions.

Seems they are literally oblivious to it.

Too funny

I agree, this is funny

 

[atwhatcost]

Something I said four days ago.

Unless you're Athanasius, I'd be very guarded on when declaring God gave me something in scripture that no one else got. I think the church is like a piano -- 88 keys all somewhat in the proper cord. (Sure, some of us will disagree on End Times stuff, and some will disagree about how God saves, but we agree God does save, so it's only a little out of tune. Can still hear the melody.) When I see most people going along the same themes, it sounds like ding, ding, ding, ding in my mind. And then there are those who donk instead of dink. Not just a sour note, but flat, lifeless, totally against what the rest are dinging.

Doctrine was fought over many, many centuries ago. If someone is coming up with a new one now, 99.999999% of the time, it simply is a person creating a god of his own liking.

Given most folks hear the donk as well as I do, (and I'm tone deaf, so it has to be so completely out of tune for me to hear it), I really simply don't understand why they keep arguing with the donker. If faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, well, donker is reading God's word, so God can step in. We don't have to, especially given he's got his fingers in his ears screaming "donk donk donk donk" anyway.

JMHO

So, now I have to make a request. Can someone please give me a reasonable answer to what I wondered about in my last paragraph? AKA Why are you still going on and on with the donker? Doing any good, or do you think you're the miracle worker instead of God?

Cuz honestly, all I hear now is donk, donk, donk, bzzz, bzzz, donk, bzzz, donk, bzzz, which, in case you haven't noticed, is about as useful as boots on a mosquito.

 

[Patnubay]

This is actually the same process with which God moved me to believe in eternal security. First I read about it, then I prayed. Next God showed me absolutely that I would never lose my salvation, and that his promises were good. He showed me in his Word that he was going to continuing working on me until the day of the Lord (Phil. 1:6)

So my next question, was indeed, was everyone else saved eternally, or just me? At that point I was still reeling in shock at all the lies I had been fed about soteriology. So I continued to pray, and God showed me that any true believer was indeed saved forever - and that included through the good times and bad, and even when sin was committed.

Salvation is truly a gift from God, and God will not take it back. I feel sorry for those who are so deluded to think that it is up to us to keep pulling ourselves up by the bootstraps, so we don't lose our salvation. In other words, a works based gospel.

But even worse is the people who believe you can lose your salvation setting themselves up as teachers, when they don't have the basic skills and tools of Bible Interpretation, and are fast and lose with Scripture. That indeed is another reason people have bad doctrine - they don't have a clue how to interpret the Bible correctly!

If I may ask, "how" did Judas lose his salvation?
I think I know the "when" as shown in the verse below:
John 13:27(NKJV).....27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”
If an apostle who has been with Christ in His 3.5 years of ministry, lost his salvation, shouldn't we at least consider that we too could lose ours?

A wild thought after reading your post. For the record, I believe in "OSAS".

 

[Grandpa]

If I may ask, "how" did Judas lose his salvation?
I think I know the "when" as shown in the verse below:
John 13:27(NKJV).....27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”
If an apostle who has been with Christ in His 3.5 years of ministry, lost his salvation, shouldn't we at least consider that we too could lose ours?

A wild thought after reading your post. For the record, I believe in "OSAS".

If I may ask, "when" was Judas saved?

And "how" was he saved before Christ was crucified and before he received a revelation of who Christ is?

I couldn't fathom a born again Son of God who knows Christ, betraying Christ like that.

 

[Patnubay]

If I may ask, "when" was Judas saved?

And "how" was he saved before Christ was crucified and before he received a revelation of who Christ is?

I couldn't fathom a born again Son of God who knows Christ, betraying Christ like that.

Okay, let us exchange some ideas, Grandpa.

When was Judas saved? I think when he accepted Jesus and became part of the 12 apostles. At that time he was a true believer. (Luke 9:1-5Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Apostles)

And how was Judas saved? No Scriptural basis but it is safe to assume that the Apostles were baptized as the apostles preached about Baptism, Repentance and Salvation ( Mark 16:16 ). And of course when he accepted Jesus and became part of the Apostles.

"I couldn't fathom a born again Son of God who knows Christ, betraying Christ like that." I am having the same difficulty But being the devil's advocate, I say it is because the "Scripture has to be fulfilled", Upper Story. ( John 17:12 ). I'd say, if Judas didn't fail in his faith, it would had been somebody else among the twelve. My bet would be Peter.

 

[shotgunner]

Scripture interprets scripture so IMO the only way to know what is error and what is correct is to take a verse that someone wants to use to buttress their point and take a verse that the person you are debating wants to use to buttress their point and harmonizee them and then the point becomes clear elimininating confusion.

Harmonize scripture.

The above!!

Plus we also have to understand that we all see as through a glass darkly. We are all members or parts of the Body of Christ. Why wouldn't we have different revelations. This however doesn't mean opposing revelations. Take for instance those who preach salvation by works. That isn't their true revelation. Their true revelation is that it ought not be so that Christians sin just like the rest of the world.

Now take those who preach salvation by grace alone. That's IMHO a true revelation, yet it also needs the revelation that Christians ought not to sin like the rest of the world.

Now if you add what Paul says about the subject to what James says about the subject we get closer to the truth, which is why we all need each other and shouldn't act like enemies even when we seem to have opposing views.