How long can a Christian go without sinning?

[PeterJens]

There are two definitions that cause believers a lot of problems

1. Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. Context - in loving your enemies
2. Anything not of faith is sin. Context - eating food sacrificed to idols. If you go
against something that your conscience says you are not allowed to do in the faith
you are sinning.

Now the most extreme say we must be perfect as God is perfect in everything, which
is impossible so, this is just said to show we are failures.

The faith comment in its most extreme is everything done by a non-believer is sin.

Both positions destroy the focus of love being the driving force behind righteousness,
and right behaviour can be done by non-believers as demonstrated by Cornelius.

Actions that cause problems
1. Causing a brother or sister to stumble because of spiritual freedom
2. Being judgmental over issues that are not sinful
3. False accusations of motivation and evil because of faith or doctrinal positions

Many will never be free from their emotional prisons within, of justification because of
certain ideas and condemnation because of others.

Behaviour is the fruit of knowing God or the lack of this communion.
Jesus in our hearts will always lead to righteousness, and the lack of such a reality
will lead to death.

Jesus said specific things about how he promises to abide with us.
Faith and the walk. We are all messes and how it exactly works out in each will
be different, and what works for one, is not the same for another.

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
John 10:9

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:6

Communion and walking in the way has always been Gods way.

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
John 14:21

Jesus's command is loving others. This only comes from understanding oneself and
others, and the power sin has over our lives when not in communion with the King.

 

[PeterJens]

Thoughts and sin

A thought is just a concept wrapped up in emotion.
We are not our thoughts, though our thoughts are the fruit of our hearts.

How we choose what we dwell on determines how our life grows, what is
important to us and how the world responds around us.

A thought of anger, or desire, or possessiveness is not evil, but an indication
of an issue that needs addressing. To dwell on these thoughts and actively
feed the emotions behind them becomes temptation. The temptation when
dwelt on long enough leads to sin.

The only way we understand life and others is we role play others emotions
and their thought life in our own heads. So many things we will experience or
come to see are potentials, are the well of hatred, lust, greed, evil which we
know of but do not dwell in. To be able to go to these places is important,
but also to be strong enough to come back and know who we are.

Many feel like their emotions are who they are, rather than the messages of
how one is reacting to the world, that require action or acceptance.
When on holiday and enjoying oneself, ones emotions tell us of relaxing and
lack of pressure. When in danger and needing focused attention, ones emotions
tell us to be very careful and work out solutions now.

So our natural responses to environments are what all humans have and do.
They enable us to adapt and cope. In Christ we know we have security and peace,
that we are loved and secure, so many things that with no reference points would
be devastating, in the Lord they are not. Faith changes things because we are built
by the Holy Spirit to walk in Faith, love and hope.

 

[Desertsrose]

There are two definitions that cause believers a lot of problems

1. Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. Context - in loving your enemies
2. Anything not of faith is sin. Context - eating food sacrificed to idols. If you go
against something that your conscience says you are not allowed to do in the faith
you are sinning.

Now the most extreme say we must be perfect as God is perfect in everything, which
is impossible so, this is just said to show we are failures.

The faith comment in its most extreme is everything done by a non-believer is sin.

Both positions destroy the focus of love being the driving force behind righteousness,
and right behaviour can be done by non-believers as demonstrated by Cornelius.

Actions that cause problems
1. Causing a brother or sister to stumble because of spiritual freedom
2. Being judgmental over issues that are not sinful
3. False accusations of motivation and evil because of faith or doctrinal positions

Many will never be free from their emotional prisons within, of justification because of
certain ideas and condemnation because of others.

Behaviour is the fruit of knowing God or the lack of this communion.
Jesus in our hearts will always lead to righteousness, and the lack of such a reality
will lead to death.

Jesus said specific things about how he promises to abide with us.
Faith and the walk. We are all messes and how it exactly works out in each will
be different, and what works for one, is not the same for another.

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
John 10:9

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:6

Communion and walking in the way has always been Gods way.

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
John 14:21

Jesus's command is loving others. This only comes from understanding oneself and
others, and the power sin has over our lives when not in communion with the King.

Hi Peter,

I think if you look closer, the understanding of 'be perfect' requires a little more context than what you've given. Jesus is referring to all the, "You have heard it said, but I tell you." It's all one thought and one teaching together beginning with at least verse 21, but I think it includes all the way to the beginning of the chapter.

When we read 'be perfect' it's not meant that right where you are at his moment, be perfectly sinless. That's how some read it.

The Lord said that He gave us everything for life and Godliness in Christ. So if God gives a command, He also gives us the gifts to carry it out. The word perfect is a continuous action. When we read 'be perfect' it's telling us that perfection is our goal and to continually move towards that goal.

As God is perfect and He's our standard, we live our life to meet that goal of perfection. When we fail we confess our sins and he cleanses us so that we stand righteous before Him. But our eye is to be on that goal. Like Paul said, Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Philippians 3:12

 

[maxwel]

Through observation? A couple people already said that it looked to them like I already did define sin, which is why I told you I did but still, to please you, I went ahead and made a list of definitions (and provided a list, prior of specific sins). But yeah, when I mentioned observation, I mean that you've read my posts for quite some time and even in simply observing the posts here on this thread you could see what I mean by sin.

God 's word is straightforward on what is sin, I would think as Christians we would have that definition down. lol As you said, however, we can now move forward.

Ben, let's clarify a bit.


1. I've read enough of your posts, over time, to know you're a nice guy, and to know you're serious about your faith.


2. I've read enough of your posts, over time, to know we probably agree on some things, and disagree on other things.


3. I've NOT read enough of your posts, or talked to you in person enough, to know how you view EVERY LITTLE THING, or to know how you happen to view every little thing TODAY... and people's views do continually change, one way or another, with the passing of time.

(Sometimes views deepen, sometimes they broaden, sometimes they move left or right.. but they are always changing in some way, to some degree. This isn't necessarily good or bad, it's just a fact of life.)


4. I asked for specific and precise definitions for a common word because I DID NOT SEE THAT in your thread. Perhaps it was there and I missed it; perhaps it was there in a different form which I didn't recognize or didn't feel was clear or concise enough.

If I'd seen what I was looking for, I wouldn't have badgered you about it.
I wasn't badgering you out of sheer sadistic pleasure.


5. Although we all claim that sin is a simple concept, I think we all know, philosophically, it can delve into quite complex and nuanced areas. The concept of sin, upon investigation, has just as much complexity as another other doctrine. That's why we're talking about specific and precise definitions, and also why, to be honest, I'm not yet finished discussing those definitions.

Sin, like many essential doctrines of the faith, has a foundational level of understanding so simple that a child can understand it. But at the same time, it also has levels of complexity, levels of nuance, and levels of "doctrinal interactivity" built atop that foundation... levels of complexity which we can continue to study for a long time.


* The title of this thread, the very premise for this entire debate, is clear evidence that at some level of understanding, at some level, somewhere, you and I must hold different views on sin.

* The very title of this thread logically demands that to be so.


Final Thought:
The title of the thread can actually lead to 2 different logical conclusions.
1. It can mean that at some level we hold different views on sin.
2. It can mean that you have not expressed your views with as much precision as you'd intended, and there is simply some misunderstanding.

Some discussion, and precision in that discussion, will clarify things...
"guessing" at what you believe will not.

 

[BenFTW]

Ben, let's clarify a bit.


1. I've read enough of your posts, over time, to know you're a nice guy, and to know you're serious about your faith.


2. I've read enough of your posts, over time, to know we probably agree on some things, and disagree on other things.


3. I've NOT read enough of your posts, or talked to you in person enough, to know how you view EVERY LITTLE THING, or to know how you happen to view every little thing TODAY... and people's views do continually change, one way or another, with the passing of time.

(Sometimes views deepen, sometimes they broaden, sometimes they move left or right.. but they are always changing in some way, to some degree. This isn't necessarily good or bad, it's just a fact of life.)


4. I asked for specific and precise definitions for a common word because I DID NOT SEE THAT in your thread. Perhaps it was there and I missed it; perhaps it was there in a different form which I didn't recognize or didn't feel was clear or concise enough.

If I'd seen what I was looking for, I wouldn't have badgered you about it.
I wasn't badgering you out of sheer sadistic pleasure.


5. Although we all claim that sin is a simple concept, I think we all know, philosophically, it can delve into quite complex and nuanced areas. The concept of sin, upon investigation, has just as much complexity as another other doctrine. That's why we're talking about specific and precise definitions, and also why, to be honest, I'm not yet finished discussing those definitions.

Sin, like many essential doctrines of the faith, has a foundational level of understanding so simple that a child can understand it. But at the same time, it also has levels of complexity, levels of nuance, and levels of "doctrinal interactivity" built atop that foundation... levels of complexity which we can continue to study for a long time.


* The title of this thread, the very premise for this entire debate, is clear evidence that at some level of understanding, at some level, somewhere, you and I must hold different views on sin.

* The very title of this thread logically demands that to be so.


Final Thought:
The title of the thread can actually lead to 2 different logical conclusions.
1. It can mean that at some level we hold different views on sin.
2. It can mean that you have not expressed your views with as much precision as you'd intended, and there is simply some misunderstanding.

Some discussion, and precision in that discussion, will clarify things...
"guessing" at what you believe will not.

Lets get to discussing, lol. This won't go anywhere if we keep talking about semantics, no offense. If you don't mind, lets get to the meat of the discussion.

 

[Depleted]

Depleted

I will repeat to you what Holy Spirit told me years ago. Throw away your measuring stick.

Its taken all this time to understand. Do you see?

Holy Spirit may have told you to throw away your measuring stick. Never told me that.

I'm not looking at my foot steps. I'm not checking my pace, (except behind me because sometimes I need to see I'm not staying still.) I'm looking at his standard. If I were an Israelite, I'm checking out if Moses' staff is still raised above his head, and then on with the fight.

 

[Depleted]

I used to like broccoli. Now I'm into asparagus.

You can't like both?

I really do like veggies, just not nearly as I like sweets, and chocolate is the top of the list for sweets.

 

[samuel23]

Something to think about, when Jesus taught He gave us the true mind of God, therefore there were no concessions for anything because God demands perfection. Then Jesus died on the cross so that we could be forgiven when we fail to meet the perfect standard of God(which is every day). None of us in this body of death(as Paul called it) can live a perfect life, if we walk in fellowship with Christ then His blood cleanses us(something continually happening). We should never practice sin, neither should we ever claim that we never sin.

 

[willybob]

Zacharias and Elisabeth were walking in all the commandments of God

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

we do know that Zahorias had a moment of doubt and was chastised for it in Luke chapter 1. Be he did not engage in the vile sins of the flesh that will disqualify one from the kingdom..There is no chastisement for unrepented wilful rebellion, but rather fiery indignation in the day of wrath..

 

[willybob]

Something to think about, when Jesus taught He gave us the true mind of God, therefore there were no concessions for anything because God demands perfection. Then Jesus died on the cross so that we could be forgiven when we fail to meet the perfect standard of God(which is every day). None of us in this body of death(as Paul called it) can live a perfect life, if we walk in fellowship with Christ then His blood cleanses us(something continually happening). We should never practice sin, neither should we ever claim that we never sin.

The dual nature body of sin was invented by Augustine, he got it from Plato....I hope you mean sins of ignorance, and minor trespasses, moments of anger or doubt etc. that are dismissed daily in the Lords prayer...However, if one is committing the vile sins of the flesh everyday they are in serious trouble...The devil cant do worse than that.. The biblical definition of perfection is to be mature and morally upright "telios"..It doesn't mean to be as perfect as Jesus, but rather obedient from heart purity according to the measure given therein..

 

[willybob]

The day of atonement in the OT was for sins of ignorance only, not willful rebellion....

 

[willybob]

The body of sin is metaphor for the sinful desires and indulgence of the carnal appetite “ie” lust. Sin is not a substance, it has no atomic weight, no chromosomes, nor can it be seen under a microscope, and is most definitely not a mysterious malady lurking in the flesh.. ..But rather sin is something one chooses to do because of lust saith the apostle James..”when lust is CONCEIVED it gives birth to sin”

 

[willybob]

a clear reading of romans chapters 6,7,8 reveals that Paul was speaking of his former condition before reconciliation, see Romans 8-1,2. He was freed from his body of sin and death having the law established by faith in Romans 3-31..He also answers the dilemma for Galatians 5-17 in verse 16, and he was FORMERLY the chief of sinners whereas he before had persecuted the ecclesia.......

 

[JIMBO43]

Thankyou for your open attitude.
Schizophrenia is a weakness, a genetic weakness which means patients who are in
a stressful environment often go on to show this illness. LSD can cause schizophrenia
as well as it is a dopamine drug.
Now imagine this. We are built with systems in our brains that compensate for stress
or pressure but only to an extent. People who learn to stress relief and handle these
break points are much less likely to develop the illness than those who have no stratagies
at all.
Families that repress emotions and do not recognise the emotional inter play, are most
vulnerable. So you valiant are probably from one such family.

Now these are simple provable facts. I see you are in denial and want to say nothing
can be done to compensate for these weaknesses. Well there is a lot you can do.
Once schizophrenia is displayed probably there is no way back.

It would not surprise me if part of this is developmental in early childhood, depending
on the environment the children grow up in, feeling loved and open to express whatever
they like with boundaries, or is a repressed and unexpressive environment where each
feels lost and alone. I know both environments, and I know which one works.

And this matters to me, because the statistical chance of serious mental issues in my
kids is high. But among my wider family, the ones with better social openness and caring
skills did much better. One family was totally devastated with 2 kids totally disabled and
one very withdrawn.

So just to reiterate, in this world we have one shot and caring and growing, so let us do
it with love and in Christ with an open heart. Those who are closed down and shut out
literally stand little chance in this life or the next.

i think youll find peter that if anyone watched there child stop breathing thy would go skitzo too... we all have skitzo tendencies,,,,, it just some people handle theres better because of training etc.... in fields where one has to develop a thicker skin...

The reality is mate that your haters here are tring everything they can to rile you mock you and mock the word of God....

because why.... because there the done deal they can do what they want... they dont have to account when your the done deal.. the mentaliy of being the done deal is verry much evident in the way people speak to you here...

But what i would say is this much mate,,,, it water of ducks back for those who hope for guidance to lead them not in to temptation and become apart of there wicked ways mate...

You just stay as you are and may you grow even more in your verry fine quality of patience and tolerance.. of this infintile attitude of people mocking you daily...

 

[PeterJens]

.... in fields where one has to develop a thicker skin...

,,,, it water of ducks back for those who hope for guidance to lead them not in to temptation and become apart of there wicked ways mate...

You just stay as you are and may you grow even more in your verry fine quality of patience and tolerance.. of this infintile attitude of people mocking you daily...

I understand what you are saying. There is another side to this coin.
Jesus calls us to let the blood flow, to know the pain and still forgive, to let it effect us,
but have love that is even greater. It is carrying the sins of others, sharing in the suffering
of Christ. So it needs to hurt and I need to know it. But love is greater.

Years ago when I first started this I thought, yes turn the other cheek. I then thought I can
be assertive and not retaliate but show the pain. Now I think I can take it. And I can take it
because it is sin that generates the antagonism, the anger, the lashing out, the pain, the revenge.

And God is bigger than this. None of this behaviour will change reality or judgement or the ends.
What will change it is repentance and faith in Christ. And it took cc to teach me this, and these
guys, so I owe a debt of gratitude. I am an unworthy servant to my King and fail in so many areas,
but here I can be taught the way of Christ.

This is what evangelism does, where we call out to God and He answers, Praise the Lord.

So do not be discouraged, but know Christ loves you very much.

 

[JIMBO43]

I understand what you are saying. There is another side to this coin.
Jesus calls us to let the blood flow, to know the pain and still forgive, to let it effect us,
but have love that is even greater. It is carrying the sins of others, sharing in the suffering
of Christ. So it needs to hurt and I need to know it. But love is greater.

Years ago when I first started this I thought, yes turn the other cheek. I then thought I can
be assertive and not retaliate but show the pain. Now I think I can take it. And I can take it
because it is sin that generates the antagonism, the anger, the lashing out, the pain, the revenge.

And God is bigger than this. None of this behaviour will change reality or judgement or the ends.
What will change it is repentance and faith in Christ. And it took cc to teach me this, and these
guys, so I owe a debt of gratitude. I am an unworthy servant to my King and fail in so many areas,
but here I can be taught the way of Christ.

This is what evangelism does, where we call out to God and He answers, Praise the Lord.

So do not be discouraged, but know Christ loves you very much.

that is for some that will learn this here..but not all...

Anyhows mate some mourning can go on for a long time... i suppose you could say that blessed are those who mourn... but as you well know anger can be a coming out of mourning.... Gods says to try to let it go.... and maybe it does go by releasing anger.... maybe some people have an outburst of anger and its over with...

Others well that anger goes on and on and on... like a consuming fire..

Anger can be good and bad i suppose... but one thing ive learned is a strict guide line to warn a brother twice and thats it... for me if they still persist with there wrath then leave it in Gods hands.... youve done your duty.......

 

[maxwel]

Lets get to discussing, lol. This won't go anywhere if we keep talking about semantics, no offense. If you don't mind, lets get to the meat of the discussion.

Sometimes the meat of the discussion is in the semantics...
all depends on the argument.

I'll jump back in as soon as I get a bit of free time.

I was planning to move on from semantics, but now I'm kind of rethinking that.
I hate to pass up a good opportunity to be irritating.