How to Spot a Legalist

[Biblelogic01]

Could you elaborate on this please.

Easiest example I guess would be the feasts, and there are different POV on the feasts and what not.
Seeing Jesus in the feasts:

The feasts have a 2 come around meaning, lined up with what they represented before, and after Jesus

Passover: Jesus is the Passover Lamb
Unleavened Bread: Leavening is a metaphor to sin, Jesus is without leaven (without sin).
First Fruits: Jesus brought the first fruits into Heaven when He resurrected.
Shavuot(Pentecost): Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit (this is when the Holy Spirit fell on everyone, and they started speaking in tongues, all these people were gathered because they were observing Shavuot), now along with this before Jesus, if your read and study on it, Shavuot(Pentecost) is also the same day Moses came down and gave the children of Israel the commands of God.
Those are the "Spring Feasts", as the explainations we see Jesus has actually become what these feast represent, and as the Torah was concidered scripture/the word back then, He's become the actual living word.

Yom Teruah(Feast of trumpets): I honestly still do not understand the full entire of this feast of before Jesus, except for that in the OT God voice is mostly described as a trumpet blast when speaking sometimes. Seeing Jesus in this, we see in Revelations that Jesus returns at the sound of a trumpet blast. These line up with scripture sayings such as "No man knows the day or hour", this is a reference to a new moon (I guess you could call it a Jewish/Hebrew metaphor) which the feast of trumpets happens on a new moon. Now my understanding is Jesus wil come back on the feast of trumpets, but no one knows which year, so technically the saying "No man knows the day or hour" still stands as no one but God knows.
Yom Kipur (Day of Judgement/Atonement): Jesus is our judge and will bring judgement to the nations when He returns.
Sukkot(Feast of tabernacles): Jesus will dwell with us for eternity.

And that's the "Fall Feasts".

Now also there are other example.
Sabbath; Jesus is our rest.
Sin offerings; Jesus was the ultimate sin offering and has covered our sins and made us clean.
Judgement of transgression; Jesus is our judge and makes the calls (this goes along with when the guys brought Jesus a prostitute and tried to have her stoned, and Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.")

Those are probably the biggest examples I can give.
Murder, Idolry, Adultry, Theft, and other things along the lines of those are just basically all summed in when Jesus answered to what the greatest commandment is, and Jesus listed 2 of the commands from Torah. Love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor which ultimately these 2 commandments do sum up the whole of Torah if one understands what Torah is.

I do hope that is a good explaination of it.

 

[Biblelogic01]

I apologize about my grammar, I work in a call center so I don't have time to spell check.

 

[Biblelogic01]

If you're saying you need works to be saved, then that is you putting yourself down....way down.

I think what he's saying (which is what the scripture is say), its about the heart and where your heart is.

Which if you pay attention closely to the stories in Torah, and in the prophets it's always been about the heart of God's people.
One can have faith and belief, but if there is no heart then it's a false faith and a false belief.

Overall I believe what Crustyone is trying to say is, not to worry about what other's convictions are, if that's where that person's heart is then let them be, because that's what God is looking at.

 

[Biblelogic01]

Hebrew Roots Alert

One of the characteristics of followers Hebrew Roots teachings is that they call the law of Moses Torah, and use Hebrew pronunciations for certain words. The reason being that they think that bible cannot be understood from a "Greek mindset" (even though that is the language the apostles spoke and wrote in), but only through a "Hebrew mindset". Apparently, that means feeling like a Hebrew because you use Hebrew words.

Not saying anyone here is or isn't a HR follower; just pointing out what they believe.

Hebrew mindset actually means you're looking at the NT with the perspective and knowledge of the OT.
When Jesus did His teachings, He was basing them off of the OT. He was not making anything new up.
Most of what Jesus preaches is quoting OT scripture.
That's what a Hebrew mindset is.
A Greek mindset from my understanding is ignoring anything of the OT except that it's prophecies and old stories.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I think what he's saying (which is what the scripture is say), its about the heart and where your heart is.

Which if you pay attention closely to the stories in Torah, and in the prophets it's always been about the heart of God's people.
One can have faith and belief, but if there is no heart then it's a false faith and a false belief.

Overall I believe what Crustyone is trying to say is, not to worry about what other's convictions are, if that's where that person's heart is then let them be, because that's what God is looking at.

Well we don't really know what the Crusty one really meant since they haven't come back to clarify. There was certainly enough there to be concerned about.

 

[Biblelogic01]

And to go along with the whole Hebrew mindset, it makes sense to look at scripture that way.

Because Jesus was a Jew
Paul was a Jew
Peter was a Jew
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John were Jews.
I can go on and on.
So they all were well versed in the Torah, and the prophets.
So when they are writing they are writing with a Hebrew mindset, but yes they were writing in Greek because that's what they spoke.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Hebrew mindset actually means you're looking at the NT with the perspective and knowledge of the OT.
When Jesus did His teachings, He was basing them off of the OT. He was not making anything new up.
Most of what Jesus preaches is quoting OT scripture.
That's what a Hebrew mindset is.
A Greek mindset from my understanding is ignoring anything of the OT except that it's prophecies and old stories.

I hear this often and I disagree. There is value in learning about the Hebrew mindset, in that it can deepen our understanding. But far more important is to learn to think like the new covenant Christians who wrote the NT.

 

[Mitspa]

Nothing wrong with the Hebrew mindset when its has submitted to the righteousness of faith in Christ...error is trying to justify oneself through the law of Moses.

 

[Magenta]

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John were Jews.

Luke may not have been.

10 My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. 11 Jesus, who is called Justus, also sends greetings. These are the only Jews among my co-workers for the kingdom of God, and they have proved a comfort to me.... 14 Our dear friend Luke, the doctor, and Demas send greetings. Colossians 4:10–11,14.

This comment has traditionally caused commentators to conclude that Luke was a Gentile. It could be that Luke and Demas were simply sending greetings in absentia, but even so, there are other reasons to suspect he may not have been Jewish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_the_Evangelist

 

[Biblelogic01]

I hear this often and I disagree. There is value in learning about the Hebrew mindset, in that it can deepen our understanding. But far more important is to learn to think like the new covenant Christians who wrote the NT.

I'm just stating from my understanding of it.
Without understanding of OT scripture there can be a lot missed in the NT.

For example, why did the Pharisees get all ticked off at Jesus when stated He was the good shepherd, why was Jesus accused of blasphemy?
Well because according to Ezekiel, God is the good shepherd.
The people listening the Jesus heard this, and understood what He meant.
Some people it brought joy to them.
The ones who had cold prideful hearts, it was not so joyous news.

This is just one of many examples.

 

[Biblelogic01]

Nothing wrong with the Hebrew mindset when its has submitted to the righteousness of faith in Christ...error is trying to justify oneself through the law of Moses.

True statement, but what I was getting at is that stereotyping Torah into being just a Hebrew roots think.
It's not.
It's a Jewish thing.
Hebrew roots movement is generally way off on a lot of their topics due to pride and hypocricy.
I refer the law of Moses to as Torah and I'm not a part of a Hebrew roots movement.

 

[Mitspa]

True statement, but what I was getting at is that stereotyping Torah into being just a Hebrew roots think.
It's not.
It's a Jewish thing.
Hebrew roots movement is generally way off on a lot of their topics due to pride and hypocricy.
I refer the law of Moses to as Torah and I'm not a part of a Hebrew roots movement.

Yea I continue to see some very strange and unsound doctrine coming from those groups ..even some wanting or supporting the temple be rebuilt for the purpose of offering blood sacrifices ...can you imagine a real Christian who has so little understanding of the Blood of Christ and how wicked this would be before the Father?

 

[Biblelogic01]

Luke may not have been.

10 My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. 11 Jesus, who is called Justus, also sends greetings. These are the only Jews among my co-workers for the kingdom of God, and they have proved a comfort to me.... 14 Our dear friend Luke, the doctor, and Demas send greetings. Colossians 4:10–11,14.

This comment has traditionally caused commentators to conclude that Luke was a Gentile. It could be that Luke and Demas were simply sending greetings in absentia, but even so, there are other reasons to suspect he may not have been Jewish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_the_Evangelist

Yeah, I understand. But my point was the NT is mostly written by Jews.
Which all Jews have a Jewish mindset and the language something is written in does not make up the mindset.

If the language they spoke was German, French, or Russian it'd still be written in a Hebrew mindset, because that's where their knowledge came from.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yeah, I understand. But my point was the NT is mostly written by Jews.
Which all Jews have a Jewish mindset and the language something is written in does not make up the mindset.

If the language they spoke was German, French, or Russian it'd still be written in a Hebrew mindset, because that's where their knowledge came from.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the writers of the NT had a Christ mindset.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Yeah, I understand. But my point was the NT is mostly written by Jews.
Which all Jews have a Jewish mindset and the language something is written in does not make up the mindset.

If the language they spoke was German, French, or Russian it'd still be written in a Hebrew mindset, because that's where their knowledge came from.

All of the authors of the NT were Christians writing from within the context of the new covenant, and it is only from within that same context that it can be understood.

 

[Biblelogic01]

Yea I continue to see some very strange and unsound doctrine coming from those groups ..even some wanting or supporting the temple be rebuilt for the purpose of offering blood sacrifices ...can you imagine a real Christian who has so little understanding of the Blood of Christ and how wicked this would be before the Father?

Me personally I do support the rebuild of the temple, because it's prophecied in Ezekiel, also in Revelations. As to what goes on in that temple I have no clue, and that's not a topic I've studied a whole lot. There's nothing wrong with a temple, a temple to me is just like and extremely large church. They're the same thing, it's a place of worship.

I've seen some crazy Hebrew roots groups.
I almost got sucked into one, but then I saw a lot of the hypocricy.
The biggest hypocritical thing they would teach from what I've seen isn't really into the whole temple/sacrificing part, but they'd come off as trying to be actual Jewish to lure Jews in and then basically chastise those who joined and were jewish, and then also they would pick and choose what to follow as far as Torah.

I do follow Torah, but only as in the light of Messiah in it and the lifestyle it is. If you haven't read my previous posts, it explains it there.

 

[Mitspa]

Me personally I do support the rebuild of the temple, because it's prophecied in Ezekiel, also in Revelations. As to what goes on in that temple I have no clue, and that's not a topic I've studied a whole lot. There's nothing wrong with a temple, a temple to me is just like and extremely large church. They're the same thing, it's a place of worship.

I've seen some crazy Hebrew roots groups.
I almost got sucked into one, but then I saw a lot of the hypocricy.
The biggest hypocritical thing they would teach from what I've seen isn't really into the whole temple/sacrificing part, but they'd come off as trying to be actual Jewish to lure Jews in and then basically chastise those who joined and were jewish, and then also they would pick and choose what to follow as far as Torah.

I do follow Torah, but only as in the light of Messiah in it and the lifestyle it is. If you haven't read my previous posts, it explains it there.

So you would have no issue with a animal being sacrificed for sins? Knowing that Christ has shed His Blood....

 

[Biblelogic01]

All of the authors of the NT were Christians writing from within the context of the new covenant, and it is only from within that same context that it can be understood.

But what I'm saying is they were Jewish, literally Jewish. Like Jewish decent.
Paul himself states that he is a Jew.
Yes they follow, had faith, believe, and taught Jesus' teachings.
But overall they were Jewish.
The very first Christians were Jewish.
The term Christian didn't come around until a couple centuries later.

 

[Biblelogic01]

So you would have no issue with a animal being sacrificed for sins? Knowing that Christ has shed His Blood....

Never said that.
I don't know where that assumption comes from.

 

[FreeNChrist]

But what I'm saying is they were Jewish, literally Jewish. Like Jewish decent.
Paul himself states that he is a Jew.
Yes they follow, had faith, believe, and taught Jesus' teachings.
But overall they were Jewish.
The very first Christians were Jewish.
The term Christian didn't come around until a couple centuries later.

They were Christians of Jewish ethnicity. We are Christians. They were Christians. That's what we are called. When that came about and how is irrelevent.