Human intellect and the fall

[dcontroversal]

but is "intellect" really synonymous or directly correlated to "% brain activity" ?

is it even physical at all?

Well.....in my view, I just view what ADAM did before his fall....on the day he was made BEFORE EVE was created he named every animal that was at that time.....and there seems to be evidence that we have lost more than just spiritual life when Adam fell....there seems to be evidence (real or not?) that my post has some credibility.....for example....IQ......people with a "higher" IQ seem to have a greater capacity to understand, figure out and do higher levels of math.....maybe I am wrong in my original post....but the more we know (worldly wise) the greater the leaps and bounds in math, science technology etc...and also......there is a probability that the more sin takes it's toll.....the dumber we get.....I say this because even NOW at the height of the technical revolution, the advancements in math, science etc....we cannot duplicate the Great Pyramid of GIZA, have no clue how the stones were cut at Machu Picchu, Pumapumku, Tiwanaku, the possibility of a Nuclear reactor in Oklo in the GABON REPUBLIC, Vitrified cities in Pakistan and India and the list goes on and on.....

I guess that I a saying that i have no problem believing that sin has impacted out abilities and possibly our intellect....

 

[Laish]

wouldn't that mean that the 'clouding' began with the introduction of sin?
((re: Romans 5:12-14))

Humm ya give me a headache sword man
How could such a short OP make a guy think so much and leaf front to back through his Bibles .
Humm wondering about the difference between intelligence and good or bad judgment .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Arcade]

Humm ya give me a headache sword man
How could such a short OP make a guy think so much and leaf front to back through his Bibles.
Blessings
Bill

I'm good at that. Wait until you see some of my other questions some day.

 

[posthuman]

Humm ya give me a headache sword man
How could such a short OP make a guy think so much and leaf front to back through his Bibles .
Humm wondering about the difference between intelligence and good or bad judgment .
Blessings
Bill

yeah i'm currently stuck at the part where "intelligence" has to be defined, too

sorry about the headache...

 

[maxwel]

1. There are Christian philosophers who've done very detailed works on this question.


2. There is one school of thought that sin, intrinsically, by it's very nature, necessarily corrupts the intellect.

I happen to agree with this, and I don't think it's too hard to prove in numerous ways.


3. When asking the question about how much trust can we place in the intellect if it's corrupted... I don't think this is terribly complicated.

A. SIN:
If sin intrinsically corrupts the intellect, then the degree of corruption of the intellect should be somewhat commensurate with the degree of sin... or you could say something like this:
"The degree to which a person's intellect is faulty is probably commensurate to the degree to which the person disbelieves God and his Word... as more contradiction of TRUTH must necessarily create more logical error, and more corruption of the thought processes."

B. PURE LOGIC:
If we're talking about pure logic, well logic seems to be based on principles EXTERNAL to the human mind.
So much like using principles of scripture (which are also external to the human mind) the more we rely on logic, the more rational and sensible our thought processes will be.

The problem is that humans often fail to rely on logic, and instead rely on unchecked emotions emanating from our fallen and corrupt minds.
There is nothing wrong with emotions, but since our minds are fallen, we need to rely on scripture, and logic, to keep our emotions "in check", and to keep them from becoming wholly irrational. I think we'll find the Bible talks about keeping our thoughts and emotions in check... so this is very biblical.

C. NO LOGICAL ABILITY LEFT:
If you want to make the case our intellect is so corrupt we can't have any logical thoughts at all... well... this is provably false. We can take principles of logic, and use them to actually test our own reasoning. Furthermore, if we HAD NO LOGICAL ABILITIES LEFT... we wouldn't be able to walk across the room, or flip a light switch, or drink a glass of water. If we had NO LOGICAL ABILITIES INTACT we wouldn't be able to function in any way... and we certainly couldn't use language to talk about it.


4. So to sum things up:

A. We certainly have fallen and corrupted intellects.

B. Though our intellects are no longer perfect, they will sink further into corruption commensurate to the degree which we turn against God's perfect truth in scripture... as turning against truth forces us, necessarily, into more logical error.

C. Although our logic is often flawed because we fail to use logic, we can still demonstrably prove we all constantly use laws of logic in every action of everyday life... therefore, although our intellects are corrupted, we are not at all separated from logical ability.

D. Even in our fallen states, God has GIFTED US with special things to test and check the corruption of our minds, to stem the flow of wrong thoughts, and to help us think correctly
1. God has given us his PURE WORD, which we use to "prove all things", and which we use to CORRECT our own thinking.
2. God has given us principles of logic, which seem to infuse everything in creation... and which we can also use to check our own thinking.
3. God has given us a conscience, to steer us when our thinking goes off course in moral areas
4. God has given us the indwelling holy spirit, to "guide you into all truth"

 

[Dino246]

...I say this because even NOW at the height of the technical revolution, the advancements in math, science etc....we cannot duplicate the Great Pyramid of GIZA, have no clue how the stones were cut at Machu Picchu, Pumapumku, Tiwanaku, ...

I guess that I a saying that i have no problem believing that sin has impacted out abilities and possibly our intellect....

I agree with your last sentence here. I recall hearing something recently regarding your earlier post, but I don't recall the details; the gist is that the idea that we only use a limited portion of our brains is somehow misleading.

I've come across two distinct explanations for the stones at Machu Picchu and similar places: multiple mirrors, aligned to bring the sun's rays to bear on a point, akin to a laser; and stones that are actually a form of cured cement, poured in place. I'm not advocating either one, but both are possible explanations.

 

[Laish]

yeah i'm currently stuck at the part where "intelligence" has to be defined, too

sorry about the headache...

View attachment 178484

That’s all good I have been pummeled before lol
Bill

 

[Arcade]

1. There are Christian philosophers who've done very detailed works on this question.


2. There is one school of thought that sin, intrinsically, by it's very nature, necessarily corrupts the intellect.

I happen to agree with this, and I don't think it's too hard to prove in numerous ways.


3. When asking the question about how much trust can we place in the intellect if it's corrupted... I don't think this is terribly complicated.

A. SIN:
If sin intrinsically corrupts the intellect, then the degree of corruption of the intellect should be somewhat commensurate with the degree of sin... or you could say something like this:
"The degree to which a person's intellect is faulty is probably commensurate to the degree to which the person disbelieves God and his Word... as more contradiction of TRUTH must necessarily create more logical error, and more corruption of the thought processes."

B. PURE LOGIC:
If we're talking about pure logic, well logic seems to be based on principles EXTERNAL to the human mind.
So much like using principles of scripture (which are also external to the human mind) the more we rely on logic, the more rational and sensible our thought processes will be.

The problem is that humans often fail to rely on logic, and instead rely on unchecked emotions emanating from our fallen and corrupt minds.
There is nothing wrong with emotions, but since our minds are fallen, we need to rely on scripture, and logic, to keep our emotions "in check", and to keep them from becoming wholly irrational. I think we'll find the Bible talks about keeping our thoughts and emotions in check... so this is very biblical.

C. NO LOGICAL ABILITY LEFT:
If you want to make the case our intellect is so corrupt we can't have any logical thoughts at all... well... this is provably false. We can take principles of logic, and use them to actually test our own reasoning. Furthermore, if we HAD NO LOGICAL ABILITIES LEFT... we wouldn't be able to walk across the room, or flip a light switch, or drink a glass of water. If we had NO LOGICAL ABILITIES INTACT we wouldn't be able to function in any way... and we certainly couldn't use language to talk about it.


4. So to sum things up:

A. We certainly have fallen and corrupted intellects.

B. Though our intellects are no longer perfect, they will sink further into corruption commensurate to the degree which we turn against God's perfect truth in scripture... as turning against truth forces us, necessarily, into more logical error.

C. Although our logic is often flawed because we fail to use logic, we can still demonstrably prove we all constantly use laws of logic in every action of everyday life... therefore, although our intellects are corrupted, we are not at all separated from logical ability.

D. Even in our fallen states, God has GIFTED US with special things to test and check the corruption of our minds, to stem the flow of wrong thoughts, and to help us think correctly
1. God has given us his PURE WORD, which we use to "prove all things", and which we use to CORRECT our own thinking.
2. God has given us principles of logic, which seem to infuse everything in creation... and which we can also use to check our own thinking.
3. God has given us a conscience, to steer us when our thinking goes off course in moral areas
4. God has given us the indwelling holy spirit, to "guide you into all truth"

How does the Holy Spirit power guide us though? Name some real life examples where the Holy Spirit power led someone.

 

[posthuman]

That’s all good I have been pummeled before lol
Bill

i can't even begin to describe how satisfying it is to literally step inside the line and bring a pommel up into a sparring partner's grill, even given that one mustn't do it forcefully, because it's very much possible to radically smash in a steel faceplate that way.

it's just training, brother -- no fear in love

so many metaphors!!!

 

[maxwel]

One More Thought - The Physical Brain

There is also the idea that our physical brains were corrupted PHYSICALLY in the fall.

I think we should take this seriously.
Although our brains still work, and God has given us ways to both test and correct our own reasoning,
disease and biological failure DID come by the fall.

So although our brains still work,
our brains have had thousands of years to be physically corrupted by disease and DNA errors.


I would find it easy to believe if Adam had a far superior intellect.

That would seem to make sense.

 

[Arcade]

I must say, it's really nice to meet everyone. Remind me to post my conclusions to the question after we've gone oh, a couple more pages.

I'll post a basic belief of mine though. That which is true leads back to heavenly truth / God / etc. That which isn't, eventually leads to some form of error. As you think your thoughts through, you will start to see which way it leads.

 

[Nehemiah6]

1. When man fell, did human intellect fall with him?

Of course.

2. If yes or no... to what extent should we trust human reason and human intellect?

When it comes to spiritual matters, not at all.

 

[Nehemiah6]

How does the Holy Spirit power guide us though? Name some real life examples where the Holy Spirit power led someone.

You'll find plenty of real life examples in the Bible. Read Acts 8 for example.

 

[Dino246]

... 2. If yes or no... to what extent should we trust human reason and human intellect?

When it comes to spiritual matters, not at all.

This (in bold) is an example of a self-refuting statement. If I take it at face value, I should not accept it, because it's about a spiritual matter, and is processed through my reason and intellect.

I'd suggest that it is in need of some qualification and/or clarification.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This (in bold) is an example of a self-refuting statement. If I take it at face value, I should not accept it, because it's about a spiritual matter, and is processed through my reason and intellect.

I'd suggest that it is in need of some qualification and/or clarification.

1 CORINTHIANS 2

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hiddenwisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[slave]

[TABLE="class: passage-cols"]
[TR]
[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-6 first"]

Proverbs 4:23 New International Version (NIV)

23 Above all else, guard your heart,
for everything you do flows from it.








​

[/TD]
[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-6 last, align: center"]23 Above all else, watch over your heart; diligently guard it
because from a sincere and pure heart come the good and noble things of life. (Voice).

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
In Christ, thinking is in-between in the process of righteous living. Holy Spirit --->to our spirit, thru His Word and prayerful intuitions--->where God employs our mind to think and meditate on His revelations--->We then must will to do the will of God and obey what He makes clear for us to do, as He empowers us and directs our paths thru producing His fruit and will in and thru us..

 

[pottersclay]

Never saw that intellect was any part of the fall. Infact if you or I or anyone else was in place of Adam and Eve the same results would happen.

Wasn't a test of the minds. It had to deal with the pride of life which Satan was very familiar with. In fact the pride of life is were all sin comes from.

 

[Depleted]

So that people know my stance:

I'm a left-leaning Christian. I think ideas through each day. All of this naturally leads me to see the merit of intellect and reason. Even if the potential of reason is limitless or almost limitless, it doesn't mean humans have thought about every idea yet.

Someone in my Introduction thread asked me to make a thread on whatever I like, so I did and I asked questions. I'm going to play it safe since I'm a New Member though and only reply to things that have real "meat" and don't get into a battle of "You did this / No you did this" back-and-forthing.

I'm a woman who was born and raised in a house full of men, with a tomboy mom. Because of that, and because I'm very emotional, I have spent my life trying to use logic for reasoning out choices, rather than making decisions based on emotions. I'm 61, so have been working at this "trying" thing for at least 59 years. (Probably longer, but who remembers much of who they were as babies?)

Here's the problem I have when using nothing but intellect and reason to decide things. It requires knowing enough of what is happening or enough about the subject matter to make decisions. That seems obvious, right?

Well, okay then. So I want to go to the Delaware River in my car. Which way do I turn the wheel at the corner?

See the problem? Very simple question from where I'm sitting. (I live about three miles from that river.) I can ask any neighbor in a 20 block radius that same question, and they would be able to answer correctly with a choice of 8 different answers. (We have diagonal streets too.) And each answer would be different, yet correct.

So, you think you can deduce "naturally." Sometimes you can. Possibly even the majority of times. And yet, it leaves out a very important component. "Supernatural." God!

We do think naturally. He's not nature. He's God. He's different than what comes "naturally."

How do you add that to your way of using your intellect/reason?

 

[Depleted]

Obviously, not! Only the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy (James 3.17).
On the other hand, the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth (Gen 8.21; Psalms 58.3):

• “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.” (Prov 3.5-7).
• “Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths. The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.” (Isa 59.7,8).

Thus:

• “Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.” (1Cor 3.18-20).

Meh, I trusted my doctor to help me deal with a full-body-hive break out a few weeks ago. It was worth trusting her. I'm hive free.

Sometimes we can trust people.

 

[Depleted]

I believe so.....even the smartest among man only use like 15% to 18% of their brain.......

I know that is supposed to be a scientific fact, but, alas, once again scientists have determined their "fact" was wrong. Instead we use the vast majority of our brains, it's just that we don't need it all, all the time.

(If I could keep up with all the facts I was given in my life that have changed, I bet there would be a humorous book in it.)