As I said, God didn't have to save anyone and no one is entitled to salvation, because all have sinned. God is sovereign and is saving those whom he wants to. For as Paul said regarding salvation, "It therefore does not depend on man's efforts, but on God's sovereign election." And God himself said, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy and compassion upon whom I will have compassion." You are correct, God did create all people and all people have sinned and the reward for sin is death, but God decided to save some throughout history.
I have a question
- Thread starter jchavez
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Sir, it won't matter, because regardless of your beliefs or lack of, you and everyone else will have to stand before him. Wouldn't you rather stand before him covered by the blood of Christ so that you will not be held accountable for your sins?
Jchavez, as scripture states, there are no good people. Also, we are not saved by our good works, but by our faith in Christ who lived a perfect life in the flesh. Those who believe are credited with his righteousness. Regarding punishment in the lake of fire, you obviously don't understand the severity of this. Paul said, "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God!" I would pray that you would seriously reconsider, because only Christ can save you.
Jchavez, as scripture states, there are no good people. Also, we are not saved by our good works, but by our faith in Christ who lived a perfect life in the flesh. Those who believe are credited with his righteousness. Regarding punishment in the lake of fire, you obviously don't understand the severity of this. Paul said, "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God!" I would pray that you would seriously reconsider, because only Christ can save you.
In my eyes there is a pretty big difference between people that lie, and people that murder and rape bud. You are trying to say someone like Hitler, who believed in Jesus, was worthy of going to heaven, and an innocent civilian in Iraq or Afghanistan that gets blown up deserved to go to hell. As I have said before, an unjust God is no God for me.
The OP seems to have come here to bait and argue people out of their faith. But it won't work, because the people in this forum are solid in their relationship with Christ. And most know their Bibles well, and believe in the Words of life within.
Nor are we ignorant yokels. I study biology and geography in university. The first year was the year I saw all the flaws with evolutionary theory, and the Holy Spirit saved me! And I was a wicked sinner but God forgave me when I repented and believed. He can save you too, if you lose the attitude, throw a away the trite, stupid, and ignorant questions. Or you can leave the forum gracefully, before you get banned for trying to take over the forum with your antagonistic and ungodly nonsense. This is a Christian forum, so I hope you will obey forum rules.
As as for your future without Christ, listen to his words:
"I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6
Nor are we ignorant yokels. I study biology and geography in university. The first year was the year I saw all the flaws with evolutionary theory, and the Holy Spirit saved me! And I was a wicked sinner but God forgave me when I repented and believed. He can save you too, if you lose the attitude, throw a away the trite, stupid, and ignorant questions. Or you can leave the forum gracefully, before you get banned for trying to take over the forum with your antagonistic and ungodly nonsense. This is a Christian forum, so I hope you will obey forum rules.
As as for your future without Christ, listen to his words:
"I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6
Jesus did walk the Americas,
[h=1]I AM SANANDA ESU IMMANUEL (aka 'Jesus' from the bible)[/h]
[h=1]He Walked the Americas – Evidence of Jesus by Native Americans[/h]
“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
John 10:16
He Walked the Americas
Legends of the Pale Prophet from the Native Peoples of the Americas.
The legends that follow are the legends of the Healer. These legends were told by the fireside of a “saintly white teacher,” who performed miracles with healing and control over the winds, waters, and other natural items. All describe his eyes as gray-green like the ocean and told stories of the future. His symbol has been woven into blankets, carved on canyon walls, put on pottery and danced in dances. His name has been given to mountains and rivers.
Though the stories are many and spread throughout the Americas, they are broken into bits and pieces, hard to follow and piece together into one tale. His name varied, most names were reflective of his control over the wind and water, as he would request each tribe to name Him as they wished, stating there was no value to a name.
Common to almost all:
*He was a white man with a beard
*He said He came from across the sea
*He would choose twelve “disciples”
*He spoke of His Father’s Kingdom
*He wore a bright white garment with golden sandals
*He made references to the future
*He had control over the wind and all elements
*He had the ability to heal wounds
*His sign was the cross
*He taught love and peace
*He taught that good deeds were important
*He referred them to the Dawn Star
—–
**The Shawnee told the author that this came from the Prophet….”Do not kill or injure your neighbor, for it is not he that you injure; you injure yourself. Do good to him, thus adding to his days of happiness even as you then add to your own. Do not wrong or hate your neighbor; for it not he that you wrong: you wrong yourself. Rather love him, for the Great Spirit loves him, even as He loves you.”
**I have heard the Cherokee story a couple times now about when the Prophet was with them. It was said that there were many tales, but most were as all the other nations. The one that was unique to the Cherokee was one in which the Healer was troubled by the events of the future. His twelve disciples (all tribes say he chose twelve for his special training!) were following him through the woods for fear any danger would come upon Him. At one point, the Healer came across a fawn that was lost in the woods. The Healer asked him where his mother was? The fawn turned his head and looked down a path. Not far away was the mother, the victim of a huge cat. She had given her life to save her young.
[h=1]I AM SANANDA ESU IMMANUEL (aka 'Jesus' from the bible)[/h]
[h=1]He Walked the Americas – Evidence of Jesus by Native Americans[/h]
“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
John 10:16
He Walked the Americas
Legends of the Pale Prophet from the Native Peoples of the Americas.
The legends that follow are the legends of the Healer. These legends were told by the fireside of a “saintly white teacher,” who performed miracles with healing and control over the winds, waters, and other natural items. All describe his eyes as gray-green like the ocean and told stories of the future. His symbol has been woven into blankets, carved on canyon walls, put on pottery and danced in dances. His name has been given to mountains and rivers.
Though the stories are many and spread throughout the Americas, they are broken into bits and pieces, hard to follow and piece together into one tale. His name varied, most names were reflective of his control over the wind and water, as he would request each tribe to name Him as they wished, stating there was no value to a name.
Common to almost all:
*He was a white man with a beard
*He said He came from across the sea
*He would choose twelve “disciples”
*He spoke of His Father’s Kingdom
*He wore a bright white garment with golden sandals
*He made references to the future
*He had control over the wind and all elements
*He had the ability to heal wounds
*His sign was the cross
*He taught love and peace
*He taught that good deeds were important
*He referred them to the Dawn Star
—–
**The Shawnee told the author that this came from the Prophet….”Do not kill or injure your neighbor, for it is not he that you injure; you injure yourself. Do good to him, thus adding to his days of happiness even as you then add to your own. Do not wrong or hate your neighbor; for it not he that you wrong: you wrong yourself. Rather love him, for the Great Spirit loves him, even as He loves you.”
**I have heard the Cherokee story a couple times now about when the Prophet was with them. It was said that there were many tales, but most were as all the other nations. The one that was unique to the Cherokee was one in which the Healer was troubled by the events of the future. His twelve disciples (all tribes say he chose twelve for his special training!) were following him through the woods for fear any danger would come upon Him. At one point, the Healer came across a fawn that was lost in the woods. The Healer asked him where his mother was? The fawn turned his head and looked down a path. Not far away was the mother, the victim of a huge cat. She had given her life to save her young.
The Healer knelt down beside the dead mother and started stroking the body. As His hand passed over the wounds, they healed up, leaving no marks. The deer then started breathing and rose. The disciples were upset at this and asked Him why he was wasting His energy on the animals. The Pale One said, “There cannot be too many good deeds. Such is the manner of compassion. A lost lamb is my Father’s business, as important as saving a nation, if one need not choose between them. More precious in my Father’s eyes is a good deed than the most exquisite jewel.”
—–
**The “Algonquin of the Eastern Seaboard” tell they received their name for the Dawn Light from the Pale One. They wouldn’t name the Prophet as He had asked them to do. They wanted to know what He was called where He grew up and He told them a namethat was strange and hard to say. But they tried hard to say it: Chee-Zoos, God of the Dawn Light, basically the same as the Puants.
—–
**The Chippewa remember very well the “pale Great Master.” They tell He gave them medicine lodges where the signs and emblems are secret and taken from those across the ocean. And according to the author, they keep this secret to this day.
—–
**The Prophet was known to come across a Puant city in the now known area of Oklahoma. It was the Prophet’s custom to always take their established temples and change them. He would chose the twelve to teach them the priesthood and then lectured the people. This was again done here as usual. But here, the people wanted to hear about his childhood. He told them he was born across the ocean where all men had beards. Even in the legends, he told them of his virgin birth and about the bright star that shone over his city of his birth. The heavens opened up and winged beings sang chants of exquisite beauty.
”When the University of Oklahoma was digging the Spiro Mound, they found mush pottery showing winged beings singing, and also the hand with the cross through the palm. To them, He was known as Chee-Zoos, the Dawn God, and they whisper of Him about the campfires when no white man can listen. To quote the book, “The love they bear Him is beyond measurement, for well they know He watches over them, and that when their journey here is over, He will meet them in the Land of Shadows, for such was His sacred promise.
“They smoke the Sacred Peace Pipe in His memory, and blow the smoke to the four directions (sign of the cross), knowing that to each man comes his retribution, no matter how flows the river of history. Thus in great pride walks the Red Man, even though now dire poverty stalks him and starvation or hunger sits at his table. In the mask like calm of his expression there smiles a secret satisfaction, a something which to puzzled white men is entirely beyond understanding.”–
**They tell that He always wore a long white toga, with black crosses embroidered along the bottom, and had golden sandals…
—–
*It is said the hot springs of Tacobya mark the passage of the Healer. In a canyon nearby isthe hand with the T cross in it, and near this the Great Cross. It is understood that He traveled to the Havasu, raising one arm in greeting meaning “Peace and Prosperity to you”. He then stopped and tapped a large rock with his staff and water gushed out of it. He drank from this sacred water and today it is called the Spring of Tacobya.
—-
“Have you ever wondered about the cedar…every tribe revere it…high priests mix its shavings with the leaves of our tobacco? And why do we blow smoke across our bodies, when we are returning from the war trail? Is it not to ask His forgiveness, as was once taught by the Pale Prophet? Why do we plant these trees upon the Great Mound-those ancient histories of our cities? Was it not to warn all men that once He walked here; the Sacred One, the Miracle Worker?
“And the color of snow: among all the nations it stands for peace. Why is this so? Because He wore it, as he traveled from nation to nation He taught the people to live in peace and to speak in council, thus settling all their problems. This was His way and the way of His Father.
“Why do we raise our hands up in greeting? Because that was His sign, a tradition which we still follow.”
“Why do we use the Cross as a sacred symbol? Was it not because He wore it about the hem of His full white garment, and carried the sign on His two hands, those hands so gifted in healing?…In the Wisacoo Lodge and many others there are some who still know His secret language, but those things are being fast forgotten.”
—–
**The “Algonquin of the Eastern Seaboard” tell they received their name for the Dawn Light from the Pale One. They wouldn’t name the Prophet as He had asked them to do. They wanted to know what He was called where He grew up and He told them a namethat was strange and hard to say. But they tried hard to say it: Chee-Zoos, God of the Dawn Light, basically the same as the Puants.
—–
**The Chippewa remember very well the “pale Great Master.” They tell He gave them medicine lodges where the signs and emblems are secret and taken from those across the ocean. And according to the author, they keep this secret to this day.
—–
**The Prophet was known to come across a Puant city in the now known area of Oklahoma. It was the Prophet’s custom to always take their established temples and change them. He would chose the twelve to teach them the priesthood and then lectured the people. This was again done here as usual. But here, the people wanted to hear about his childhood. He told them he was born across the ocean where all men had beards. Even in the legends, he told them of his virgin birth and about the bright star that shone over his city of his birth. The heavens opened up and winged beings sang chants of exquisite beauty.
”When the University of Oklahoma was digging the Spiro Mound, they found mush pottery showing winged beings singing, and also the hand with the cross through the palm. To them, He was known as Chee-Zoos, the Dawn God, and they whisper of Him about the campfires when no white man can listen. To quote the book, “The love they bear Him is beyond measurement, for well they know He watches over them, and that when their journey here is over, He will meet them in the Land of Shadows, for such was His sacred promise.
“They smoke the Sacred Peace Pipe in His memory, and blow the smoke to the four directions (sign of the cross), knowing that to each man comes his retribution, no matter how flows the river of history. Thus in great pride walks the Red Man, even though now dire poverty stalks him and starvation or hunger sits at his table. In the mask like calm of his expression there smiles a secret satisfaction, a something which to puzzled white men is entirely beyond understanding.”–
**They tell that He always wore a long white toga, with black crosses embroidered along the bottom, and had golden sandals…
—–
*It is said the hot springs of Tacobya mark the passage of the Healer. In a canyon nearby isthe hand with the T cross in it, and near this the Great Cross. It is understood that He traveled to the Havasu, raising one arm in greeting meaning “Peace and Prosperity to you”. He then stopped and tapped a large rock with his staff and water gushed out of it. He drank from this sacred water and today it is called the Spring of Tacobya.
—-
“Have you ever wondered about the cedar…every tribe revere it…high priests mix its shavings with the leaves of our tobacco? And why do we blow smoke across our bodies, when we are returning from the war trail? Is it not to ask His forgiveness, as was once taught by the Pale Prophet? Why do we plant these trees upon the Great Mound-those ancient histories of our cities? Was it not to warn all men that once He walked here; the Sacred One, the Miracle Worker?
“And the color of snow: among all the nations it stands for peace. Why is this so? Because He wore it, as he traveled from nation to nation He taught the people to live in peace and to speak in council, thus settling all their problems. This was His way and the way of His Father.
“Why do we raise our hands up in greeting? Because that was His sign, a tradition which we still follow.”
“Why do we use the Cross as a sacred symbol? Was it not because He wore it about the hem of His full white garment, and carried the sign on His two hands, those hands so gifted in healing?…In the Wisacoo Lodge and many others there are some who still know His secret language, but those things are being fast forgotten.”
For more:
[link to www.wolflodge.org]
source He Walked the Americas - Evidence of Jesus by Native Americans
THAT PALE PROPHET IS SANANDA…..
I AM SANANDA
INDIAN IN THE MACHINE
[link to www.wolflodge.org]
source He Walked the Americas - Evidence of Jesus by Native Americans
THAT PALE PROPHET IS SANANDA…..
I AM SANANDA
INDIAN IN THE MACHINE
C
If someone never heard the gospel and lived good I don't believe they went to hell. Romans 2
*for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,*15*who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves*their*thoughts accusing or else excusing*them)*16*in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
*for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,*15*who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves*their*thoughts accusing or else excusing*them)*16*in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Hello, and welcome. It seems many of these issues are caused by asking the WRONG questions. We as Christians, have to meet people where they are. Meaning it's hard to explain the Triune nature of God to someone who doesn't believe in a God to begin with.
The real question to ask is how can a perfect God, who will not dwell in sin's presence, save ANYONE? He did this by becoming flesh and paying the debt we owe, by being crucified, and dying, for our sin. We cannot even grasp the totality of love that that act did.
This gift is available to all. And what is he asking of us? Simply to believe He did THAT act and then rose from the grave, thereby guaranteeing that WE will also rise from the grave to life.
This gift is available to YOU, right now. Just open it up and recieve it!!
Stop thinking in terms of YOUR morality, and what YOU would do IF YOU were God. Accept His gift and Live!!!
The real question to ask is how can a perfect God, who will not dwell in sin's presence, save ANYONE? He did this by becoming flesh and paying the debt we owe, by being crucified, and dying, for our sin. We cannot even grasp the totality of love that that act did.
This gift is available to all. And what is he asking of us? Simply to believe He did THAT act and then rose from the grave, thereby guaranteeing that WE will also rise from the grave to life.
This gift is available to YOU, right now. Just open it up and recieve it!!
Stop thinking in terms of YOUR morality, and what YOU would do IF YOU were God. Accept His gift and Live!!!
C
Hitler is in hell. If you say you're in the Light but hate your brother you're in darkness, so he was no christian according to the Bible. You never know if someone sees Him in a vision just before they die.
Ian McCormack was an atheist who met God and prayed the Lord's prayer just before he died and went to heaven:
Ian McCormack - Heaven Hell and the Box Jellyfish
Ian McCormack was an atheist who met God and prayed the Lord's prayer just before he died and went to heaven:
Ian McCormack - Heaven Hell and the Box Jellyfish
D
Let's start with your morals. No, I'm not going to tell you your morals are wrong, so let's start there. Think about them. (There probably isn't enough space on here for you to write them all down, so just think about them.)
Done yet? No? I would hope not. Really. Think about them.
Are they good ones? Don't you think the world would be a better place if everyone kept your morals? Yeah?
Okay then, if the world decided to go with your morals, then what happens when someone breaks one? Are they important enough that breaking them is terrible? If they aren't, what's the point of having that one? If they are, shouldn't the culprit be punished in some way? Should the punishment fit the crime?
I am assuming your morals say don't kill anyone. Is that more or less important than don't steal from anyone? Is there a different punishment for both? Is it fair?
Now, can you really picture a society that keeps your morals?
Really? Why haven't you kept them? Assuming you think not stealing is a good moral, than why have you stolen something in your life? You have, you know. Maybe you just stole a candy bar once. That's still stealing. Or, maybe you stole a pen or pencil, some paper at work or school? If nothing else, you've stolen time. Time you should have been doing something for someone else, (your parents, your boss, your teachers), to pursue selfish aim, (playing on the computer, just goofing off, the famous, "I'll do it later, Mom, I'm busy" when you really weren't.)
So, we just established you have your own set of morality and can't even keep that, so shouldn't expect anyone else to either.
Now, here's some questions for you. Who ever gave you the authority to decide for yourself what is and isn't moral? What expertise do you have to make such grand decisions? If anyone is to decide morality for all, shouldn't it be someone who truly is moral and truly understands morality?
Now, where do you get off thinking you understand morality better than he does?
You get it. You know who I'm talking about, but still think you have all rights to invent your own morality and then break it. What makes you any different to Native Americans or anyone else? What makes you or anyone else able to pass our blame onto God?
We ain't moral, even to the point of breaking our own morality. God is perfectly moral, and therefore has all rights to define morality for us, expect it, and punish for breaking that morality.
Yes, that means we all deserve hell. There's one way out of that death sentence, and that's to trust God. Yet, you lump yourself with all Native Americans? I have news for you. God was here before any human ever stepped on this particular land mass. Every human has always known that. He has some of us trusting him. The rest get what we all deserve.
Done yet? No? I would hope not. Really. Think about them.
Are they good ones? Don't you think the world would be a better place if everyone kept your morals? Yeah?
Okay then, if the world decided to go with your morals, then what happens when someone breaks one? Are they important enough that breaking them is terrible? If they aren't, what's the point of having that one? If they are, shouldn't the culprit be punished in some way? Should the punishment fit the crime?
I am assuming your morals say don't kill anyone. Is that more or less important than don't steal from anyone? Is there a different punishment for both? Is it fair?
Now, can you really picture a society that keeps your morals?
Really? Why haven't you kept them? Assuming you think not stealing is a good moral, than why have you stolen something in your life? You have, you know. Maybe you just stole a candy bar once. That's still stealing. Or, maybe you stole a pen or pencil, some paper at work or school? If nothing else, you've stolen time. Time you should have been doing something for someone else, (your parents, your boss, your teachers), to pursue selfish aim, (playing on the computer, just goofing off, the famous, "I'll do it later, Mom, I'm busy" when you really weren't.)
So, we just established you have your own set of morality and can't even keep that, so shouldn't expect anyone else to either.
Now, here's some questions for you. Who ever gave you the authority to decide for yourself what is and isn't moral? What expertise do you have to make such grand decisions? If anyone is to decide morality for all, shouldn't it be someone who truly is moral and truly understands morality?
Now, where do you get off thinking you understand morality better than he does?
You get it. You know who I'm talking about, but still think you have all rights to invent your own morality and then break it. What makes you any different to Native Americans or anyone else? What makes you or anyone else able to pass our blame onto God?
We ain't moral, even to the point of breaking our own morality. God is perfectly moral, and therefore has all rights to define morality for us, expect it, and punish for breaking that morality.
Yes, that means we all deserve hell. There's one way out of that death sentence, and that's to trust God. Yet, you lump yourself with all Native Americans? I have news for you. God was here before any human ever stepped on this particular land mass. Every human has always known that. He has some of us trusting him. The rest get what we all deserve.