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N
1st Thessalonians Chapters :
2 1 Thessalonians Chapter 2 - YouTube
3 1 Thessalonians Chapter 3 - YouTube
4 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 NO RAPTURE - YouTube
5 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5 - YouTube
2 1 Thessalonians Chapter 2 - YouTube
3 1 Thessalonians Chapter 3 - YouTube
4 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 NO RAPTURE - YouTube
5 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5 - YouTube
1st Thessalonians Chapters :
2 1 Thessalonians Chapter 2 - YouTube
3 1 Thessalonians Chapter 3 - YouTube
4 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 NO RAPTURE - YouTube
2 1 Thessalonians Chapter 2 - YouTube
3 1 Thessalonians Chapter 3 - YouTube
4 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 NO RAPTURE - YouTube
N
vv. 16-17 are pretty clear to the contrary
Scripture has to be taken in as a whole to understand what the Bible teaches in detail about how and when we gather back to Christ. The manuscripts, ( not in English ) teach, Christ returning here, but no taking of anyone off into the air at it appears in the English as first glance. Once we have a better overall understanding of the Bible and consider Mark13 and II Thess 2 also, then we see what is actually being taught .
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This chapter 4 has to be read very carefully. The subject is started in verse 13. That and 1 Cor 15 an study of its Greek is important to understanding that rapture is not written there.
Scripture has to be taken in as a whole to understand what the Bible teaches in detail about how and when we gather back to Christ. The manuscripts, ( not in English ) teach, Christ returning here, but
no taking of anyone off into the air
Scripture has to be taken in as a whole to understand what the Bible teaches in detail about how and when we gather back to Christ. The manuscripts, ( not in English ) teach, Christ returning here, but
no taking of anyone off into the air
"(15) According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede (in the rapture) those who have fallen asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
(17) After that, we who are still alive and are left (in v. 15)
will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1Th 4:15-17)
That's the rapture at the end of time.
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N
There is in my Bible:
"(15) According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede (in the rapture) those who have fallen asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
(17) After that, we who are still alive and are left (in v. 15)
will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1Th 4:15-17)
That's the rapture at the end of time.
"(15) According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede (in the rapture) those who have fallen asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
(17) After that, we who are still alive and are left (in v. 15)
will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1Th 4:15-17)
That's the rapture at the end of time.
The word air there, is not the same for the meaning in English . It is a greek word, for Spirit. For some reason, it was translated air. The reason for this is the translators probably did not understand the change that happens in bodies, when Christ returns, or consider Paul's writings in 1st Corinthians 15 about it.
The word means spiritual body.
ἀήρ
aēr
ah-ayr’
From ἄημι aēmi (to breathe {unconsciously} that {is} respire ; by analogy to blow ); air (as naturally circumambient ): – air. Compare G5594 .
This is similar, to the breath of life, God breathed, into Adam, and he became a living soul.
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T
This chapter 4 has to be read very carefully. The subject is started in verse 13. That and 1 Cor 15 an study of its Greek is important to understanding that rapture is not written there.
Scripture has to be taken in as a whole to understand what the Bible teaches in detail about how and when we gather back to Christ. The manuscripts, ( not in English ) teach, Christ returning here, but no taking of anyone off into the air at it appears in the English as first glance. Once we have a better overall understanding of the Bible and consider Mark13 and II Thess 2 also, then we see what is actually being taught .
Scripture has to be taken in as a whole to understand what the Bible teaches in detail about how and when we gather back to Christ. The manuscripts, ( not in English ) teach, Christ returning here, but no taking of anyone off into the air at it appears in the English as first glance. Once we have a better overall understanding of the Bible and consider Mark13 and II Thess 2 also, then we see what is actually being taught .
Blessings
Timber
There is in my Bible:
"(15) According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede (in the rapture) those who have fallen asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
(17) After that, we who are still alive and are left (in v. 15)
will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1Th 4:15-17)
That's the rapture at the end of time.
"(15) According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede (in the rapture) those who have fallen asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
(17) After that, we who are still alive and are left (in v. 15)
will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1Th 4:15-17)
That's the rapture at the end of time.
The word means "spiritual body."
1) So in what do they, who are left until the coming of Christ, "not precede"?
2) They will meet Jesus in the clouds, which are in the air.
3) The "spiritual body" of the resurrection is physical, not air or spirit (ghost),
just as Jesus' resurrection body was a physical body (Lk 24:39).
4) Paul never uses "spiritual" to mean unembodied, non-physical, immaterial.
It always means of the Holy Spirit.
"Spiritual" (sinless, powerful, imperishabe) is always contrasted to the "natural"
(sinful, weak, perishable),
it is never contrasted to the non-physical, unembodied, immaterial.
Your misunderstanding and misuse of "spiritual" causes you to misunderstand 1Th 4:17
as meaning the resurrection body is an unembodied spirit (air),
rather than a spiritual (of the Holy Spirit) physical body (sinless/glorious, powerful
imperishable), as was Jesus' resurrection body.
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N
You state that it is clear but not in English. What is your take on the Grammar of the text is question?
Blessings
Timber
Blessings
Timber
To Elin also :
I would use a Strong's concordance to get the right meaning for some of these words in that Chapter. The subject starts out in verse 13.
1 Thessalonians 4
(KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
The subject here starts with, those that are asleep. This word means those that have died. And you can get into a whole study with just that word alone. But to keep this short, We have people here that have passed away, and Paul does not want them to be ignorant concerning them, as others that have no hope, like non believers .
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
If we believe Christ resurrected after His death, then we should know, this how it is for every one that believes in Christ resurrection, when a person dies, they also rise .
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
We, which are alive here when Christ returns here, shall not "prevent" the, which have died. This word you have to study. Prevent; actually means, precede in time ( Greek ). Meaning, those that are alive, at Christ coming, will not go before , them which have already died.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Paul is not giving some detail and ways we can learn about Christ return. He says, the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven . The key thing to note here, is " with the voice of the archangel , and with the trump of God..
Since Paul is taking about the return of Christ, this pins what trump he is talking about. There are only Seven Trumps in the Word of God. In the Book of revelation, the trump that Christ returns in, is the seventh that the archangel sounds.
In verse 14 and 15, Paul already informed us , the those that have died resurrected and are with God; and, that God will bring those that have died with Him back here at Christ return . So they are already there . So that is why the dead, in Christ are risen first; Just as the scripture says, to be absent from the body is present with the Lord.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now this is where it gets complicated a little. Unless you were familiar with Paul's teaching in 1st Corinthians 15 and Christ teachings in Mark 13.
We which are alive and remain, shall be cough up together with them that God brings with Him ( v 14 ) with them, in the clouds. What I would consider is just as sleep is used as a euphemism for death in this chapter, so is clouds used in a figure of speech for a large gathering.
After all, Paul informs us God is bringing those that have passed on back here with Him so there will be a meeting with us that are alive here at Christ return at the seventh trump ( Revelation 11: 15-17 ).
Hebrews 12
(KJV)
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
The word air, is not atmosphere, or sky, as it reads in English. It is talking of that spiritual Body Paul taught in ( 1st Corinthians 15 ) that we all have, and will those, that are alive and remain, at Christ return, shall be changed into to meet the Lord in; that great gathering of Christians.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Air, in the Greek the Bible is written in, is different from the meaning in English.
It is the spirit of life air, pneuma, like a pneumatic tire . It is the moving of the body, of life and the spirit.
In the Hebrew in the OT this word had it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being.
, The word means "the breath of life."
Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":
Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
This is what God breathed into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:
breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)
To fully grasp better that this is what Paul is taking about, we have to read 1st Corinthians chapter 15:, where Paul also teaches about Christ return, at the seventh trump ( the last ) and the change, that happens at that moment.
1 Cor 15 :
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep ( die a natural death ) , but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
If you are familiar with the entire chapter, Paul has been teaching, we all have sinner or saint, two bodies.
A earthly body & spiritual body, and he words it in different ways to bring home the point. He starts much like he dose for the subject in s Thess 4 :13. With, if your a Christian, and believe Christ died and rose again, dont be ignorant, so did they that die ; also will God bring back here with them.
1st Cor 15 :
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
So we have the time, the last trump, Christ return, we have the mystery, there will be a change in bodies at Christ return.
From corruptible flesh, to incorporable spiritual bodies ( following the subject there ).
We have those that have died raised incorruptible as all Christians should know what happens after death, and then us that remain at Christ return ; change also into that air, breath of life body to meat as in a great cloud of Christian witnesses we will meet The Lord Christ in.
1st Cor 15: ( Paul speaking )
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
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T
To Elin also :
I would uses a Strong's concordance to get the right meaning for some of these words in that Chapter. The subject starts out in verse 13.
1 Thessalonians 4
(KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
The subject here starts with, those that are asleep. This word means those that have died. And you can get into a whole study with just that word alone. But to keep this short, We have people here that have passed away, and Paul does not want them to be ignorant concerning them, as others that have no hope, like Hellenistic people .
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
If we believe Christ resurrected after His death, then we should know, this how it is for every one that believes in Christ resurrection, when a person dies, they also rise .
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
We, which are alive here when Christ returns here, shall not "prevent" the, which have died. This word you have to study. Prevent; actually means, precede in time ( Greek ). Meaning, those that are alive, at Christ coming, will not go before , them which have already died.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Paul is not giving some detail and ways we can learn about Christ return. He says, the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven . The key thing to note here, is " with the voice of the archangel , and with the trump of God..
Since Paul is taking about the return of Christ, this pins what trump he is talking about. There are only Seven Trumps in the Word of God. In the Book of revelation, the trump that Christ returns in, is the seventh that the archangel sounds.
In verse 14 and 15, Paul already informed us , the those that have died resurrected and are with God; and, that God will bring those that have died with Him back here at Christ return . So they are already there . So that is why the dead, in Christ are risen first; Just as the scripture says, to be absent from the body is present with the Lord.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now this is where it gets complicated a little. Unless you were familiar with Paul's teaching in 1st Corinthians 15 and Christ teachings in Mark 13.
We which are alive and remain, shall be cough up together with them that God brings with Him ( v 14 ) with them, in the clouds. What I would consider is just as sleep is used as a euphemism for death in this chapter, so is clouds used in a figure of speech for a large gathering.
After all, Paul informs us God is bringing those that have passed on back here with Him so there will be a meeting with us that are alive here at Christ return at the seventh trump ( Revelation 11: 15-17 ).
Hebrews 12
(KJV)
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
The word air, is not atmosphere, or sky, as it reads in English. It is talking of that spiritual Body Paul taught in ( 1st Corinthians 15 ) that we all have, and will those, that are alive and remain, at Christ return, shall be changed into to meet the Lord in; that great gathering of Christians.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Air, in the Greek the Bible is written in, is different from the meaning in English.
It is the spirit of life air, pneuma, like a pneumatic tire . It is the moving of the body, of life and the spirit.
In the Hebrew in the OT this word had it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being.
, The word means "the breath of life."
Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":
Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
This is what God breathed into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:
breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)
To fully grasp better that this is what Paul is taking about, we have to read 1st Corinthians chapter 15:, where Paul also teaches about Christ return, at the seventh trump ( the last ) and the change, that happens at that moment.
1 Cor 15 :
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep ( die a natural death ) , but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
If you are familiar with the entire chapter, Paul has been teaching, we all have sinner or saint, two bodies.
A earthly body & spiritual body, and he words it in different ways to bring home the point. He starts much like he dose for the subject in s Thess 4 :13. With, if your a Christian, and believe Christ died and rose again, dont be ignorant, so did they that die ; also will God bring back here with them.
1st Cor 15 :
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
So we have the time, the last trump, Christ return, we have the mystery, there will be a change in bodies at Christ return.
From corruptible flesh, to incorporable spiritual bodies ( following the subject there ).
We have those that have died raised incorruptible as all Christians should know what happens after death, and then us that remain at Christ return ; change also into that air, breath of life body to meat as in a great cloud of Christian witnesses we will meet The Lord Christ in.
I would uses a Strong's concordance to get the right meaning for some of these words in that Chapter. The subject starts out in verse 13.
1 Thessalonians 4
(KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
The subject here starts with, those that are asleep. This word means those that have died. And you can get into a whole study with just that word alone. But to keep this short, We have people here that have passed away, and Paul does not want them to be ignorant concerning them, as others that have no hope, like Hellenistic people .
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
If we believe Christ resurrected after His death, then we should know, this how it is for every one that believes in Christ resurrection, when a person dies, they also rise .
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
We, which are alive here when Christ returns here, shall not "prevent" the, which have died. This word you have to study. Prevent; actually means, precede in time ( Greek ). Meaning, those that are alive, at Christ coming, will not go before , them which have already died.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Paul is not giving some detail and ways we can learn about Christ return. He says, the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven . The key thing to note here, is " with the voice of the archangel , and with the trump of God..
Since Paul is taking about the return of Christ, this pins what trump he is talking about. There are only Seven Trumps in the Word of God. In the Book of revelation, the trump that Christ returns in, is the seventh that the archangel sounds.
In verse 14 and 15, Paul already informed us , the those that have died resurrected and are with God; and, that God will bring those that have died with Him back here at Christ return . So they are already there . So that is why the dead, in Christ are risen first; Just as the scripture says, to be absent from the body is present with the Lord.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now this is where it gets complicated a little. Unless you were familiar with Paul's teaching in 1st Corinthians 15 and Christ teachings in Mark 13.
We which are alive and remain, shall be cough up together with them that God brings with Him ( v 14 ) with them, in the clouds. What I would consider is just as sleep is used as a euphemism for death in this chapter, so is clouds used in a figure of speech for a large gathering.
After all, Paul informs us God is bringing those that have passed on back here with Him so there will be a meeting with us that are alive here at Christ return at the seventh trump ( Revelation 11: 15-17 ).
Hebrews 12
(KJV)
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
The word air, is not atmosphere, or sky, as it reads in English. It is talking of that spiritual Body Paul taught in ( 1st Corinthians 15 ) that we all have, and will those, that are alive and remain, at Christ return, shall be changed into to meet the Lord in; that great gathering of Christians.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Air, in the Greek the Bible is written in, is different from the meaning in English.
It is the spirit of life air, pneuma, like a pneumatic tire . It is the moving of the body, of life and the spirit.
In the Hebrew in the OT this word had it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being.
, The word means "the breath of life."
Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":
Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
This is what God breathed into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:
breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)
To fully grasp better that this is what Paul is taking about, we have to read 1st Corinthians chapter 15:, where Paul also teaches about Christ return, at the seventh trump ( the last ) and the change, that happens at that moment.
1 Cor 15 :
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep ( die a natural death ) , but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
If you are familiar with the entire chapter, Paul has been teaching, we all have sinner or saint, two bodies.
A earthly body & spiritual body, and he words it in different ways to bring home the point. He starts much like he dose for the subject in s Thess 4 :13. With, if your a Christian, and believe Christ died and rose again, dont be ignorant, so did they that die ; also will God bring back here with them.
1st Cor 15 :
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
So we have the time, the last trump, Christ return, we have the mystery, there will be a change in bodies at Christ return.
From corruptible flesh, to incorporable spiritual bodies ( following the subject there ).
We have those that have died raised incorruptible as all Christians should know what happens after death, and then us that remain at Christ return ; change also into that air, breath of life body to meat as in a great cloud of Christian witnesses we will meet The Lord Christ in.
Blessings
Timber
N
I read Greek and have an extensive library. I was hoping that you could share exactly what you think suggests the return but not the rapture.
Blessings
Timber
Blessings
Timber
Just to make clear, I am against rapture teachings, because its not written. That; and am trying to document what its saying really.
What exactly will happen at Christ return other then rapture? That's a lot of scripture to cover but to keep it short for the sake of time and my fingers; He returns, here at the seventh Trump. Satan, appears just before that at the 6th claiming to be Christ and God; to keep it simple. Paul would clarify this in his 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians chapter 2.
Christ Himself teaches this later on in Mark 13, in those verses. That there will be a false Christ first, then after that, He will return. And Christ teaches this in greater detail in Revelation... Also if you did not read my whole response one or two columns below this one, then read that
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T
Just to make clear, I am against rapture teachings, because its not written. That; and am trying to document what its saying really.
What exactly will happen at Christ return other then rapture? That's a lot of scripture to cover but to keep it short for the sake of time and my fingers; He returns, here at the seventh Trump. Satan, appears just before that at the 6th claiming to be Christ and God; to keep it simple. Paul would clarify this in his 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians chapter 2.
Christ Himself teaches this later on in Mark 13, in those verses. That there will be a false Christ first, then after that, He will return. And Christ teaches this in greater detail in Revelation... Also if you did not read my whole response one or two columns below this one, then read that
What exactly will happen at Christ return other then rapture? That's a lot of scripture to cover but to keep it short for the sake of time and my fingers; He returns, here at the seventh Trump. Satan, appears just before that at the 6th claiming to be Christ and God; to keep it simple. Paul would clarify this in his 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians chapter 2.
Christ Himself teaches this later on in Mark 13, in those verses. That there will be a false Christ first, then after that, He will return. And Christ teaches this in greater detail in Revelation... Also if you did not read my whole response one or two columns below this one, then read that
Not sure who is teaching you the Greek here but I would be quite interested to see how you arrive at spirit in this text rather than air. Can you share some examples from the New Testament that uses ἀηρ, ερος for spirit?
It would be much appreciated
Timberdoodle
N
in verse 17 we read " ἁρπαζω" which means to be taken by force and carried off. Then we have νεθελη, ης meaning cloud; ἀπαντησις, εως means meeting; and ἀηρ, ερος means air, space not spirit.
Not sure who is teaching you the Greek here but I would be quite interested to see how you arrive at spirit in this text rather than air. Can you share some examples from the New Testament that uses ἀηρ, ερος for spirit?
It would be much appreciated
Timberdoodle
Not sure who is teaching you the Greek here but I would be quite interested to see how you arrive at spirit in this text rather than air. Can you share some examples from the New Testament that uses ἀηρ, ερος for spirit?
It would be much appreciated
Timberdoodle
T
I gave you 1 Cor 15 and Pauls teachings,,,, of Christ return there also. I think I'm going to just let what I wrote stand and speak for its self for now. But keep studying. That is what we all have to do.
blessings
Timberdoodle
T
You certainly have to take into account that Paul wrote both letters. You made the claim that air should have been translated spirit and you failed to offer any evidence. Why? It is easier to address one text at a time but I am quite sure that I can accommodate you if you deem it necessary. 1 Corinthians will be on its way. While I look at 1 Corinthians 15 maybe you can answer one question for me. "where did you come up with the word air in koine Greek should have been translated spirit or Spirit?
blessings
Timberdoodle
blessings
Timberdoodle
1 Corinthians 15 is not talking specifically about the rapture but the Resurrection of the dead. You are attempting to read more into the text than is there. I see no parousia at all in that segment. Do you?
Timberdoodle
N
1 Corinthians 15 is not talking specifically about the rapture but the Resurrection of the dead. You are attempting to read more into the text than is there. I see no parousia at all in that segment. Do you?
Timberdoodle
Timberdoodle
Elin said:
nathan3 said:
Elin said:
"(15) According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede (in the rapture) those who have fallen asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
(17) After that, we who are still alive and are left (in v. 15)
will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1Th 4:15-17)
That's the rapture at the end of time, when Christ comes to judge the world.
(16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
(17) After that, we who are still alive and are left (in v. 15)
will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1Th 4:15-17)
That's the rapture at the end of time, when Christ comes to judge the world.
The word means "spiritual body."
1) So in what do they, who are left until the coming of Christ, "not precede"?
2) They will meet Jesus in the clouds, which are in the air.
3) The "spiritual body" of the resurrection is physical, not air or spirit (ghost),
just as Jesus' resurrection body was a physical body (Lk 24:39).
4) Paul never uses "spiritual" to mean unembodied, non-physical, immaterial.
It always means of the Holy Spirit.
"Spiritual" (sinless, powerful, imperishabe) is always contrasted to the "natural"
(sinful, weak, perishable),
it is never contrasted to the non-physical, unembodied, immaterial.
Your misunderstanding and misuse of "spiritual" causes you to misunderstand
1Th 4:17 as meaning the resurrection body is an unembodied spirit (air),
rather than a spiritual (of the Holy Spirit) physical body (sinless/glorious, powerful
imperishable), as was Jesus' resurrection body.
I would use a Strong's concordance to get the right meaning for some of these words in that Chapter.
or immaterial.
The subject starts out in verse 13 of 1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV).
13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."
The subject here starts with, those that are asleep. This word means those that have died.
13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."
The subject here starts with, those that are asleep. This word means those that have died.
within their lifetime (Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Tim 6:13-14; Heb 10:25, 37;
Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52--"we"; Rev 1:1, 3;
cf: Mt 24:36; Rev 22:6-7, 12, 20; Mt 10:23; Jn 21:22).
Therefore, they all hoped to see Jesus' glorious return in the clouds with the command of the
archangel and the trumpets.
When some of them died without Jesus' returning, the question arose whether those you had died
would, therefore, miss the glorious day of Jesus' return and the saints being gathered to him (2Th 2:1).
So Paul writes to them so they would not be ignorant about those who fall asleep, and grieve
because they would miss that great and glorious day of Jesus' return for the gathering of the saints
to him (2Th 2:1).
They were not to grieve over their death as the end of everything, for at the command of the archangel,
they would rise from the grave before Jesus gathered the saints to him, and then all in Christ would be
gathered together (2Th 2:1) in the clouds of the air, to meet Jesus and to descend to earth with him
(parousia).
14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
and all those in Christ in the whole earth will rise in the air to meet Jesus in the clouds,
and then descend to earth with him, so that "God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep,"
as well as those who were alive when he came.
All the saints will come with Jesus after rising in the air from the earth to meet him in the clouds.
If we believe Christ resurrected after His death, then we should know, this how it is for every one that believes in Christ resurrection, when a person dies, they also rise.
In verse 14 and 15, Paul already informed us , the those that have died resurrected and are with God; and, that God will bring those that have died with Him back here at Christ return . So they are already there . So that is why the dead, in Christ are risen first; Just as the scripture says, to be absent from the body is present with the Lord.
17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
all those in Christ then descend (come) with him to earth for the Final Judgment.
Now this is where it gets complicated a little.
To fully grasp better that this is what Paul is taking about, we have to read 1st Corinthians chapter 15:, where Paul also teaches about Christ return, at the seventh trump ( the last ) and the change, that happens at that moment.
1 Cor 15 :50 "Now this I say, brethren, that
flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
1 Cor 15 :50 "Now this I say, brethren, that
flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
the natural body is in contrast to the spiritual body,
flesh and blood is in contrast to the spiritual of the Holy Spirit,
the corruptible is in contrast to the incorruptible.
When Paul states that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,
he tells you what it means in the next phrase; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
"Flesh and blood" in Paul's usage here does not mean the physicality of our bodies,
but means the natural (sinful, weak, corruptible) physical body in contrast
to the resurrected spiritual (sinless, powerful, incorruptible) physical body.
51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep ( die a natural death ) , but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
the natural (corruptible, sinful, weak) physical body that went into the grave, and
the spiritual (incorruptible, sinless/glorious, powerful) physical body that comes out of the grave.
1st Cor 15: ( Paul speaking )
44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
What goes into the grave is sinful, weak and corruptible.
What rises from the grave is sinless/glorious, powerful and incorruptible.
So 1Th 4:17 presents a rapture of the total number of the redeemed at the end of time,
and 1Co 15 does no present our resurrected bodies as immaterial or non-physical.
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N
It was the common belief, even among the writers of the NT, that Jesus' "soon" return would be
within their lifetime (Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Tim 6:13-14; Heb 10:25, 37;
Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52--"we"; Rev 1:1, 3;
cf: Mt 24:36; Rev 22:6-7, 12, 20; Mt 10:23; Jn 21:22)..... Continued ........
within their lifetime (Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Tim 6:13-14; Heb 10:25, 37;
Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52--"we"; Rev 1:1, 3;
cf: Mt 24:36; Rev 22:6-7, 12, 20; Mt 10:23; Jn 21:22)..... Continued ........
Revelation 1:1 that you quoted, throws some people, because they dont take into consideration Revelation 1:10.
John was shows everything of how it would be at the end, so he would know the time. And he would know its not during his time. Why then would he then write, "things which must shortly take place" in verse 1? The answer is simple enough, considering more scriptures : Verse 10 : I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"
This is why this must shortly come to pass, because John, was there at the end already , he was taken there in the spirit, and was able to write from that time as he observed it.
If they expressly had that concern about life after death, where was that written? One thing they were saying; Paul reported, was that some of them did not believe in life after death at all ( 1 Cor 15:12 ). As Christians and believers in Christ they should have know if Christ resurrected, so did those that die, its a fundamental of Christ teachings.
Paul said they would not miss it, because once a person dies, they instantly return to God ( 1st Thess 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." )
If Paul is saying that life after death, is in the same manner as Christ, then we know, Christ resurrected, he did not remain in the grave. Though his body,was in the tomb three days, His Self or Soul on the contrary; was not there, but preaching to the spirits or people, in prison. Christ also Himself said He would go somewhere ( Luke 23:39-43 ; 1st Peter 3: 18 to 20 )
In 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 , Paul wanted to talk to them about Christs return; that they not be confused by that first letter he sent them. Paul continues in that 2nd Letter to inform them, that Christ will not return, until the false Christ comes claiming to be God & Christ. He continues by informing them, that one is Satan himself. Paul repeats Christ teachings from ( Mark 13:21-14 ) by saying, Christ returns after, Satan, to dispel his lies .
There is no mention of rising from graves in 1st nor 2nd Thessalonians .So I will have to disagree there with you. What Paul did say, was, that those that have died, are already there, not that they had to wait for the return. I already went over these scriptures in my original long post about these , but I'll review them again.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
They cant really be brought, if they are not there to being with. Paul says as much in the next verse.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
This word unfortunately dose not carry well in the English .
Prevent -
φθάνω
phthanō
fthan'-o
Apparently a primary verb; to be {beforehand} that {is} anticipate or precede ; by extension to have arrived at: - (already) {attain} {come} prevent.
So this reads, we shall not recede in time, them that have died. Meaning we are not going to stop those who have died, from being with the Lord, because such is the teachings of God's words :
2 Corinthians 5:8 ( to be absent from the body is present with the Lord... Paul did not say, absent from the body present in the grave. ) ( Ecclesiastes 12:7 says, the body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God instantly upon that death.... No mention of remaining in a grave ) ( John 11: 12-14 - Here Christ shows how He used the word "sleep", and Paul has followed suit ,It is simply a Euphemism for the word death. ) In light of these facts, we should not believe in soul-sleep , which again, is not written.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
So if we have not already forgotten the scriptures we read here, the dead rise first,why ? Because they are already there. It is what happened to Christ, its what happened to them good or bad ( 2 Corinthians 5:10-11 ).
And the meaning of the word Air, and clouds, I already covered in my previous large post before this one.
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